Here’s the conversation from the Welcome thread:
152. ⚡☽Luna the Lovely☾⚡ (7 Potterpoints!) | October 11th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
150, 151–i understand you guys aren’t fond of Palin for whatever reasons, but as governor, at least, she really hasn’t been bad. Overall, she has been a pretty good governor. Admittedly, I don’t know that she would make a good VP–I don’t really think she has any national experience to speak of. But as far as AK goes, she really hasn’t been a bad governor.
153. Armada (17 piepoints) | October 11th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
152-You have a point. But she’s a Republican. I don’t think we need all that much of an additional reason to not like her.
Hey, you’re eighteen, aren’t you? Who’re you voting for? Sorry, maybe that’s too personal a question, but you’re a Democrat, aren’t you?
Now that I’ve said this, you’re probably seventeen. What the heck. Sorry.
This discussion should probably move to the Hot Topics thread.
154. ⚡☽Luna the Lovely☾⚡ (7 Potterpoints!) | October 11th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
153–Yes, I’m 18. As far as whom I’m voting for, and whether I’m a Democrat….well, to the latter, I really don’t know what I would classify as. I honestly don’t really think of myself in terms of Republican/Democrat, when I registered to vote, I registered as undeclared, although undecided might have been closer to the truth. My family is definitely Republican (not that they wouldn’t ever vote for a Democrat, but they tend to be pro-Republican)….
Honestly, I don’t like either of the candidates. However, from what I’ve heard (admittedly, mainly from my parents/sister/grandmother) McCain seems like the lesser of two evils. But like I said, I don’t think I like either. But I will probably end up voting for McCain. *dodges rocks thrown by the bulk of MBers* Sorry, I know most (many) of you are democratic leaning, but…..
As far as disliking Palin just because she’s a republican, well to me that seems just as bad as the people who completely dislike/will never vote for someone just because they’re democratic. For me, I think it would be more based on individual policies, rather than solely on a person’s political leanings. but, to each one’s own.
Sorry, luv, I know that’s probably not the answer you were hoping for.
155. YodaShmoda | October 11th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
154- i sooo agree with you. i’ve kinda been thinking that maybe McCain might be a bit better but just for like one term. of course i cant vote so that’s just an opinion that will never be voiced.
which reminds me… has anyone seen the play VOTE? i watched it with my QuEST group (don’t ask) it was really good, somtimes it was sorat chessey but mainly it talked about how important it is to vote. The girl gets sent bact to during the Reveloutionary times when no one votes then to the womans sufferage when woman couldn’t vote then to MLK times when technicaly blacks could vote but people made it hard for them to do so and then to the Vietnam war era when 18 year olds wre sent to war without a choie and they couldn’t even voice their opinions about the war because they vote, but so anyways it was really really really good.
but if i could vote i would vote for Kokopelli!
156. YodaShmoda | October 11th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
can i start by saying that sorry bout the last post and the many spelling erroers and that i meant in the theird to last line “they couldn’t even voice their opinions about the war because they couldn’t vote†pay most attention the the added couldn’t.
and also i have a neopyteish question. Is there a poetry thread? and if so how do i find it?
157. Armada (17 piepoints) | October 11th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
154-Oh. Hmph. I suppose that’s true (about Palin), but how is McCain the lesser of two evils? If I was undecided, I would probably vote for Obama, because he’s more concerned about the enviroment (that’s what I’ve heard, anyway), and– you’re probably going to not agree with me on this– he’s black. I know you’re probably going to give me a lecture about how it’s not a good idea to vote for someone based on what gender or color they are, but, since I’m democratically inclined anyway, I think it’s awesome that there’s finally a black candidate running.
Though, if Hilary hadn’t lost, I would have been torn.
Not that my opinion matters anyway. Yet, that is.
*coughcoughhottopicthreadNOWcough*
158. YodaShmoda | October 11th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
can i start by saying that sorry bout the last post and the many spelling erroers and that i meant in the theird to last line “they couldn’t even voice their opinions about the war because they couldn’t vote†pay most attention the the added couldn’t.
159. The Man For Aeiou | October 11th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
154- She sounds more idiotic then Bush
Armada–that’s just how I feel [that McCain isn’t as bad as Obama]. To be depressingly honest, I dont’ really have a good reason for that, it’s just the way I feel.
As far as voting for someone just because of their race–your right, I really don’t agree with you on that. But–that’s your opinion. I’m certainly not going to try and change it, because I have enough sense to know I wouldn’t succeed!
And your opinion does matter, even if you are too young to vote! That doesn’t change the importance of you opinion.
And as far as the lecture goes, well, you seem to have a pretty good idea of what I might say already, so I don’t see the point wasting my energy retyping what you already summarized of my opinion!
As for the environmental issues, well I don’t know if Obama is more enivromental conscience, but…..I don’t know, it’s just from everything I’ve heard (yes, admittedly, mainly from my republican leaning family) McCain seems like a better choice than Obama. Although he doesn’t seem like the greatest candidate, neither does obama, really…..
To be honest, though, I admittedly know fairly little about both, and desperately need to watch some election coverage (like a presidential debate) so that I can gain a concrete opinion on which one I think I should vote for. So, technically, although I’m probably going to go for McCain, i still am keeping (I think) a fairly open mind.
first post?
Luna- I think personally that your views don’t resemble the candidates themselves, but it’s great you understand where you’re getting your information from. I’m wondering why you see McCain as a better candidate, because you must have a reason somewhere :).
I think that race, while not too important, is often ignored because people obviously don’t want to be called racist. It’s a part of his identity, and makes all of his accomplishment even more astounding.
CNN.com and NYTimes.com are good places to see live coverage of the debates, if you’ve got a computer and connection that can handle video streaming. I highly suggest both, I’ve used them for all the debates so far, and while nytimes is faster, cnn has a better set-up.
On the environment, well, I could start ranting, but I’d like to hear other people’s views to turn my thoughts into a directioned flow. I’m pretty biased right now.
2–I tried to watch the VP debae on CNN, but it wouldn’t play cuz I have a mac and thus no windows media player. And then the plugin that you were supposed to be able to download so that it would work on macs, didn’t work…..I did manage to find some obscure website playing it though….. I shall try NYTimes for the next pres debate, if I am not too slammed with school at the time.
As for my views ont he candidates….well, as I said, i dont know a lot about either (yes, i know, that is not good, but I have always been bad about keeping up with politics/current events), and as far as thinking McCain better than Obama, well, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if I am just parenting what I have heard from my parents/sister/grandma. I will definitely try and catch one or more of the debates, however, so that I can formulate an opinion that I know is my own, regardless of whether tit agrees with my paretns…..but really, I don’t think I like either……..
Good governor for Alaska is not the same as good vice president and good potential president. I’m underwhelmed at her running a state that is half the size in population of my county. Alaska’s Supreme Court ruling that yes in fact she did abuse power when she fired the state trooper is just another in a long list of reasons she is wrong wrong wrong for America.
3) i really encourage you to look up information on nonpartisan websites, etc.
Luna, I agree with you that I vote by opinions/positions on issues and not by ‘democrat’ or ‘republican’. Though I am rather liberal leaning, I looked up the issues of all the cantidates’ thoughts to see what they were. I like Obama and Biden (not just because they are democrats but because of their views) and I think McCain might do alright but I don’t like Palin. She seems to not understand what she is doing and seems to act irrationally at times.
Also, I agree with Axa that you (Luna) should look up info on non partisan websites. It is really helpful. Like you, my opinion is probably formed by my family but after examining it, most of the liberal tending opinions are ones that I honestly agree with. Also, did people not watch the debates at your school? here there were quite a few watching-parties I could have gone to.
There was an editorial-type-thing in this week’s New Yorker that, in my opinion, makes it clear that Obama is really the sensible choice, and that he has the greatest chance of helping us. I’m very nervous that he won’t win… I’ve signed up for his e-mails and I want to buy a sign for my window (and then I can keep it for the rest of my life). I wish I could vote!
Sarah Palin scares me to death.
(A holy war? No thank you.)
www . newyorker.com/talk/comment/2008/10/13/081013taco_talk_editors
I found it… I’m sorry for the double post and the link.
I’m just going with my dad – I dislike McCain, I dislike Obama even more.
I also dislike both of the candidates as people, but I think that Obama and Biden’s stances on the issues are better than McCain’s, and Palin’s by far. She scares me a lot and seems out of control. This is isn’t a matter of “like”, it’s a matter of who would be a better President!
OBAMA!!!! Oh my gosh how can any of you like McCain???? What reaaaaaaaly scares me is that if McCain DID become president Palin (who really scares me) would take over if he died. And I mean, come ON people he’s in his 70’s!! He has had melanoma 3 times. DO YOU REALLY WANT PALIN TO BE PRESIDENT?????
AHHH I WISH I COULD VOTE!!!!
I am so glad I DON’T have to vote. I don’t like either candidate. I’d probably flip a coin. (Heads McCain, tails Obama…)
4–technically, it was decided that she did nothing wrong by firing him, that she had every right/authority…….anyways, yes, i know that her being a good governor does not necessarily mean she would be a good VP–believe me, i have my doubts about her abilities as a VP, and I disagree with her on plenty of issues.
6–if people at my school were watching the debate, I never erally heard naything about it…..it’s possible that they had it tuned in in the lounge, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they didn’t, either. And, yes, I know I am very guilty of being very uninformed
……and that I need to do some research before the election
9–your dad sounds like my dad, lol.
10–as far as “like”/be a better president, I don’t think either would be all that great as presdient–which was sort of what I meant when I said “like”.
11–No, I don’t particularly want Palin as president, but it is more important to choose based on the president, than the VP–there is not guarantee that McCain will die. Yes, he’s old, but that doesn’t mean he’s just going to up and die.
12–yeah, I know what you mean….but, aren’t coins more likelyh to come up heads? (math Page in Muse years ago) Drat, or maybe it was tails…..
So many of you say that you dislike both candidates, but almost no one explains why. It would be more informative to hear what you dislike about them, and what characteristics you think a better candidate would have.
My own philosophy is that it’s not necessary to like the President personally, any more than it’s necessary to like a plumber or house painter or the person who bags your groceries at the supermarket. Speaking as a Washingtonian, though, I find both Mr. McCain and Mr. Obama about as likable as most high-ranking politicians, and considerably more likable than some. But that’s just my personal impression.
Ladles and Gentlespoons I stand before you to stand behind you, and speak to you about something I know nothing about.
I don’t claim to know a lot about politics, but I’m a strong Obama supporter. Partially because McCain is both aging and a former POW. Now, please please please don’t think I’m insulting the army or anyone at all who would risk or give their lives for America–I’m extremely grateful. McCain absolutely deserves war medals and honors for his time in Vietnam. But the man has been tortured. Even disregarding his age, he could be mentally unstable–it’s already been shown that he has anger issues. I don’t want him leading our country.
Also, factoring in his age: if he died or got Alzheimers or in some other way became unable to lead the country, Palin would become president. And she scares me. She has next to no foreign policy experience, and believes that creationism should be taught in schools. She opposes gay marriage and abortion (although I understand that there are plenty of good arguments against abortion, I myself am pro-choice). She supports preemptive military action and oil drilling in protected areas. Personally, I think that she will not bring the progress to America that we need.
I’m really, truly trying not to offend anyone here, and I’m sorry if I did. Correct me if I’m wrong on any of these facts.
(15) Luna: You are old enough to vote. Do you plan to vote? If so, you might consider doing a little research first. You don’t have time to audit the Muse Academy course in World Domination, but the League of Women Voters’ website gives a good rundown on the issues: www . lwv.org/Election2008/index. html
I am a strong supporter of Obama, mostly because of his views on environmental progress and the economy. I met him once.
13 – Actually, I’m pretty sure that they decided that she abused her power. That was only announced a few days ago, though.
I’m an Obama supporter, although I think either of them would make good presidents. I like Obama’s energy policy, and I think he has a better economic strategy then McCain. I also think Obama’s education plan is much more thorough then McCain’s and will do more good.
For both candidates, though, I wonder how on Earth they are going to pay for all of this.
(17) Robert: Yup, i plan to vote, and yup, I desperately need to do research/watch a prezzie debate. I shall be sure to check out that website……*goes off to do*
17–I just read through their voter’s guide thingy, that had info on the candidates positions on some issues. To be quite honest, reading through it, McCain looks like a much better candidate. Obama seems to say things without giving any specifics. (for instance, the global warming section). he says he will reduce emissions by 80% from the 1990s level, but gives absolutely no indication of when –it could be tomorrow, or a million hyears from now. McCain, although only saying he plans to lower them by 60%, at least gives a timeframe, showing he’s put a hell of a lot mroe thought into things than Obama.
So, really, reading that, McCain looks (although perhaps not a omg awesome candidate) beter than Obama.
By the way, when is the next debate?????
15- That had to be one of the funniest Muse articles EVER.
I’m a McCain supporter, even though the state where I live is mostly liberal, and I am because I support his views. But although these candidates tell us everything we want to hear, nobody can prove that what they say is actually what they are going to do. For example, Obama claims that he is going to pull the troops out of Iraq. We can’t pull out all the troops at once right now, and sensibility agrees on this matter. If we leave now, the entire government of Iraq will likely collapse, and we will be left with the blame and some 27 million angry Iraquis who will then come after us. Right now, our country, economy, and everything related are at stake and weak. Just a few days ago the stock market took turns for the worse. With this vulnerability, we certainly can’t afford to pull out the troops, or at least not quickly and all at once.
Also, about McCain being old: Everybody ages. It’s a natural fact of life. The mental ability of the brain for someone as experienced and knowledgeable as John McCain isn’t deteriorating. If he were still just a man in the Senate, would people out him because he were old? No. Nobody would care about his age if he weren’t running for president. But since he is, everyone is going to use age as a weakness. For his age, I don’t think there is an elderly male who is nearly as intelligent as McCain. You can’t deny that he’s quite brainy.
(22, 15) I learned it as “ladles and jellyspoons.”
23–
I probably remembered it wrong…..it’s been awhile since i read that muse mag.
…I am for Obama… against Palin… against McCain… don’t know anything about Biden…
18 – *jealousy*
I think Aggie sums things up rather nicely.
Haha, have you seen any of the SNL bits?
They’re quite entertaining. (DISCLAIMER: I know they’re not necessarily realistic.) I liked the debate and the Couric/Palin interview.
26- Thank you. *gives choklit* I am a ladle, thus not a jellyspoon. What issue was that, anyways? I quite forget.
To add to my previous post, I went back and read all of the comments posted here thus far. It appears that many of you have a fear of McCain dying. However, you have to understand a few things before you can consider worrying about such a topic. John McCain is only 72 years old. Add four more years onto that and he will still only be 76. That’s not senile, and not extremely old. Heck, the oldest man alive on earth is 111. Who says McCain couldn’t live to be older? Sure, he has some health issues. Later on in life, who doesn’t? My grandmother had been in the hospital four times as well, for serious health related issues and she still lived, although admittedly she’s in the hospital right now and not doing so well. *tear* However, she’s nearing 90, and in relative age terms close to death, McCain isn’t really that old. He’s only reaching elderly. I guess everyone’s vulnerable to disease, but there’s also no way to prove that Obama couldn’t drop down dead of cancer anytime soon.
27- Yes.
How much Tina Fey looks like Palin is amazing. Separated at birth, perhaps?
22 – You do have a point there. However, I’m not saying his age is affecting his intelligence now; he is very intelligent. But there are diseases that cause mental deterioration that come with age, in time. McCain is 72 now; if he gets elected and has two terms, he’ll be 80 at the end of it. People have been known to get Alzheimer’s at ages much younger than that. And everyone’s using age as a weakness because, the fact is, president is such an important job.
27 – The SNL bits are hilarious. My favorite one pertaining to the campaign is the vice-presidential debate.
“Gwen, we don’t know if this climate change who-sy-what-sit is manmade or if it’s just a natural part of the End of Days!”
“Because, look, I love John McCain. He is one of my dearest friends. But at the same time, he’s also dangerously unbalanced. Let’s be frank–John McCain–and again this is a man I’d take a bullet for–is bad at his job and mentally unstable.”
Terry Pratchett is 60, and he has Alzheimer’s!
27- I especially loved the one that’s the beginning of the one hosted by Michael Phelps (confuzzling?). One of my favorite parts was,
.
“I believe that diplomacy should be the cornerstone of any foreign policy.”
“And I can see Russia from my house!”
AND also, “I don’t agree with the Bush Doctrine.”
“And I don’t know what that is.”
Hilarious
I don’t like either of the candidates. Ah, well, I hate politics anyway.
29 – Definitely. “Katie, I’d like to use one of my lifelines.” “Sorry?” “I’d like to phone a friend.” XD
“Joe Biden, I repeat, is better than that.” *points at Sarah Palin*
(Palin) *waves and winks*
30 – I know!!! XDD
13) “Gov. Sarah Palin abused the powers of her office by pressuring subordinates to try to get her former brother-in-law, a state trooper, fired, an investigation by the Alaska Legislature has concluded. The inquiry found, however, that she was within her right to dismiss her public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan, who was the trooper’s boss.”
From the New York Times
Axa–in post four, you say she abused her power firing the “state trooper”–presumably here you are referring to Wooten, but he (to the best of my knowledge) was never fired–he is still (unfortuantely) a trooper. Many people (such as Palin’s family) tried to get him fired, but taht never occurred. And what you say in 34, is exactly what I said in 13–and I quote your quote: “she was within her right to dismiss her public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan.” So, like I said, technically she did nothing wrong by firing him. Your quote even agrees with me there.
15- It goes like this-
Ladies and jellybeans,
Reptiles and crocodiles,
I stand before you and sit behind you to tell you something I Know nothing about.
There will be a meeting tommorrow night
Right after breakfast,
To discuss which colors
To whitewash the school.
There is no admission,
So pay at the door.
There will be plenty of seats,
So just sit on the floor.
Gawd, I love that thing. XD
Yodashmoda/LtL- What exactly about Mcain appeals to you? And, if I could be a bit bold, I recommend re-reading the edition of Muse with the different crayons on the front. I forget which one it is. Anyhow, read the article about subconscious racism.
Luna: Obama is EXTREMELY environmental (sp?)!!!!!!!! He is all for alternative energy sources, and his plan is completely cancelling out petroleum for solar, wind and electircal power. Mcain, on the other end of the spectrum, is pushing HARD for offshore drilling, and Palin is unanimously supporting DESTROYING Alaska by drilling it to death. That is one of America’s most beautiful landscapes.
9- Don’t just ‘go with your dad’, please. Try to think by yourself, for my sake.
15- *mentally whacks you over the head with a 2/4* Please, for the love of God, LEARN MORE ABOUT BOTH CANTIDATES, PLEASE.
21- Okay, that literally made me cry. I am crying right now. I’ll rant about it later; our company is here.
37–it’s the march 2006 one, the one that brought me to MB. I remember that magazine (and article) well. I took several of those IAT tests, and well, it was rather fishy. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying people (perhaps even myself) can’t be subconsciously racist, but for me, I don’t think that is what this is about. I couldn’t care less what race/gender/whatever obama is. The fact that he is African American doesn’t make a damn bit of difference to me. The campaign isn’t about race, for me. (And it would be awfully hard for me to reread it, anyway, given that I don’t have my Muses at college).
As far as my post 21, I’m sorry that made you cry. I was just expressing my feelings after looking at the site Robert mentioned pertaining to the candidates. It was by no means my intention to upset you, or anyone else. And, don’t worry, I fully intend to lean more about the candidates, because I do (really) want to vote informed. Honestly. I do.
36–that’s not the same as teh version they had in Muse…..I’m sure it isn’t.
Come to think of it, I think maybe I should just avoid this thread. I am feeling rather unwelcome surrounded by so many people who seem so very, very pro-Democratic, anti-Repbulican. I know that’s not the intent of any of you, but nevertheless, that’s kind of how I feel right now. Unappreciated/despised/unwelcome because I am more Republican leaning.
Oh, before I go, however, as far as Alaska being one of the most beautiful landscapes. Believe me, I think I know that much better than any of you, ahving lived there all my life. As far as oil drilling oges, I have mixed feelings. No, I don’t want to destroy the environment, but neither do I htink we can just snap our fingers and say–“No more petroleum. We’re going to go all solar/electrical/wind now.” It takes time to change over to new forms of energy. And while I think it is a good idea to look into alternative energy sources, you can’t just make the switch overnight.
31: Really?
*getsincrediblysadlookonfaceand1/2weeps1/2runsaroundscreamingtonearestbookstoretogetfewremaininggemsbeforeeveryoneelsegetsthelastofhisbooks*
37- I don’t know, I guess I want this war to end and for some reason I think McCain could be better. Also I don’t have much time to watch TV so I’ve only seen snipits of the debates, but it seemed that Obama kept saying thigs like “We’ll fix it” and “Lower taxes for the middle class” which i think is cool and all but hows he gonna fix it and hows he gonna lower taxes? McCain always seemed to give answers that FIT with the question, not went off into a tangent about lowering taxes. Of course I’ve probably only watched a total of twenty minutes of each so i cant say much.
And i have a question for everyone, I’ll admit it im the same way, But does anyone really feel really confident about the canidates? For examplle do you know who the independents are? I don’t, im gonna go check.
35) whoops you’re right there. sorry bout that.
also please don’t feel unwelcome. politics will always be a subject we’re all touchy about but I respect everyone’s views.
42–no problem. and, thanks, luv, I know you all aren’t trying to be unwelcoming (and I wa probably being abit over sensitive….)
38- I got it in a Klutz book. I memorized it. I have a problem with memorizing stuffs. XP
Several houses have had their Obama signs burnt. That really strikes me as a nasty and hateful thing to do.
I’m not trying to be unwelcoming or spiteful to anyone; I jsut have strong beliefs in what I believe, and it frustrates me when others don’t see my logic.
45–that is nasty and hateful. Just because a person disagree with someone else (on anything, not just politics) doesn’t give them the right to destroy other people’s property.
46–I know–I think I kinda overreacted…..
45- that’s horrible! SOme people just don’t understand that others can have opinions too.
also i have another reason for likeing McCain. I’ve ecided to do some reaserch on the canidates and found this really cool site were it catagorizes vidio clips for both canidates. Obama has more videos but all the information is like repitive ans useless, he gives past examples and whats wrong. How are we going to fix it? For example, when Obama was asked about the economy he gave his answer but it was all about our education! while McCain who only had one viedo in that section gave good answers about what we have to fix.
so there’s an election going on up here to. I’m not sure when the voting is exactly but I think it might be tomorrow. I really don’t know who’s going to win (i have a feeling it will be Harper) but I know the green party and the NDP will not win. I don’t know who I would votefor if I could. I agree with some of the stuff each perty talks about but I dunno. I’m pretty against 14 yearolds going to jail. I think, instead, that there should be manditory programs to help young offendors, instead of jail time.
31- I thought he had parkinsin’s desease (sp?) mabe I’m just confused..?
38- it isn’t.
39- i am not hateing on you. i respect your views.
45- that is a terrible thing to do.
46- but have you tried seeing others logic?
You don’t have to rely on video clips. If you go to the candidates’ websites (johnmccain.com and barackobama.com), you’ll have position papers coming out of your ears. No complaints about lack of plans, or lack of detail.
I couldn’t vote for Obama…he’s just too liberal for me.
45 – That’s so wrong. I hope those people get caught and sent to jail.
I don’t like either of the candidates. I never have. I wonder what I’m going to do when I turn 18… I hope they have some better candidates running by then….
This is why I hate politics.
53 – I’m not going to be able to vote for two more elections, including this one. -sadness-
54- Me too. Alot of people ask me why i get so involved in it then. I tell them it’s so i can still understand. Then they ask me who i would vote for, after i respond they get all offended. It’s like they think people aren’t allowed to like McCain!
out of curiosity does anyone on here (excluding GAPAs becuase I assume they are all-knowing) even know there is a Canadian election going on?
45 – Oh my. That’s terrible! Have the perpetrators been arrested?
56- i had no idea, wow.there is so much going on in the world that no one ever tells us (by us i mean me and my peers in my home town) or that we seem to even care about. youd think the most importatnt current event was vampires havoking the world if you looked at us
57- Three flags have been burnt, and no suspects yet found.
56 – Really? Well, the people from our town – maybe even the people from our state – seem not to care about foreign countries, except for Iraq and possiblyAfghanistan. I feel bad that we don’t know what’s happening with our neighboring country. (And when I say neighboring, I mean neighboring. I live in Minnesota.)
59 – Isn’t that classified as a hate crime?
39- I understand if you choose to leave but I’m glad your here and would like to listen to your views.
I like Obama and Biden. I think McCain would do an alright job but I don’t think Palin would.
Wow-wee. I simply can not understand how the heck threads go this far in one day…… Though this is a really important topic, true……
I’m an Obama supporter, as you’ll have gathered, but I don’t know how much of that is because of the way I’m being raised and how much is because I agree with his policies. I do agree that McCain is probably better (and I’m using the word in a general way) than most of the other Republicans that have run in my lifetime, and, hey, anyone is better than Bush, right?
By the way, while we’re on the subject, LtL and Aggie (I’m asking you specifically because you’re the only Republican-inclined people I know of on MB), how do you feel about Bush?
56- yes. I don’t know who is running but I know it is happening. Who is running?
There are a lot more right-leaning people here than there used to be. Interesting.
Unlike most people it seems, I think both candidates are good this year. I agree with Obama a lot more than I do with McCain though that is my views.
60- don’t worry, I’m in your state (though I’m at college in a different but still midwestern one) and I knew about the election. It could be where you are in the state. I’m in the twin cities area and people do care about foreign countries around here.
I’m not anti-Republican, but more anti-Palin.
61-Probably, if they catch whomever did it.
(So don’t get mad at me.)
66- me too. The only reason I wouldn’t vote for McCain is because if he dies then we would have Palin.
Post 68 was in response to post 66.
65 – *feels better* But I live in the Metro area too!
67 – That’s awful!
63–I don’t really think Bush was that great as president. How much of this is how I feel, and how much is just me channeling my parents, I dunno, but…..To be completely honest, prior to becoming old enough to vote (less than a year ago), I really did not follow politics at all. I do know that when he was first running, my parents were definitely pro-Bush, thought he was loads better than Gore (it was gore competing when he ran for first term, wasn’t it? oh, gosh, i hope so, or I’m even dumber on the subject than I thought….)
However, I do know that by the time we were in Bush’s second term my parents were definitely not so fond of him. I cna’t speak for my mom so much, as she isn’t nearly so outspoken, but my dad I remember saying something along the lines of “Bush is a goddamn Nazi.” I’m pretty sure neither of my parents approve of the way Bush has handled the war with Iraq. As far as I am concerened, although I realize that sometiems war is the answer, I think in this case it might ahve been better handled with diplomacy, but I dunno. I do think it is long past time to end it, but I also realize that you can not just grab the troops and yank them out, as that would negate anything we might ahve gained (and not to mention akll the lives lost). So, um, not sure if that really helped you any……
70- are you far or close to the cities? if you live rather far out in the metro area maybe that is why. I live close to both cities.
72 – ‘Bout a half hour away.
56) yeah, there was a debate recently wasn’t there? I don’t know much about the candidates though.
If I could vote (which I can’t) I would definitely vote for Obama. A, because I agree with many of his policies and respect his integrity, and B, because I do not at all agree with McCain/Palin. I have a few issues with John McCain- I watch every debate that I can, and have noticed that he will deliberately avoid answering certain questions, and the whole “my friends” thing- but my major issue is with Sarah Palin. She annoys and frightens the heck out of me. I’ve heard people say that she’s stupid, but she’s not- I think she is very intelligent and good at what she does. She avoids questions, patronizes audiences, and is against abortion and comprehensive sex education. She supports the teaching of creationism in schools: *ahem* separation of church and state! There is a law currently in effect in Alaska that a woman who wants an abortion is required to go through counseling specifically designed to discourage her from getting an abortion. That’s just wrong.
I know this point has been brought up already, but if McCain dies while in office, that’s what we’ll have as a president. If that happens, I plan to move somewhere out of the country.
This is not meant to offend anybody who supports McCain/Palin- I have friends who do, and I just try not to discuss politics with them.
45- That’s awful! I hope they catch those little sneaks and lock them up. Whatever happened to freedom of expression?
46- This is a free country. Let’s face facts, people ARE going to have different opinions than yours and they won’t be convinced by what you say. It just happens. There’s nothing we can do about it but keep standing up for our beliefs, so please, let’s accept it and move on. From now on, please don’t comment rudely, it breaks up the conversation and only makes people incensed.
63- How do I feel? Hmm, this is a tough one. I have a lot of mixed feelings about him. I don’t like it when people say that Bush single-handedly lauched the war in Iraq. It takes two-thirds of the House and Senate to vote and approve a movement to invade a country, and the House and Senate both voted a majority Yes to Iraq. Bush is a converted Christian. I am a Christian. Therefore, we hold pretty much the same stance about abortion, which is Pro-Life (I am in the Pro-Life club at school). I’ll post when I think of more. right now I’m just too tired.
73- mm, yeah, I’m within walking distance.
There’s a guy running for state rep in my area called Daniel Biss and I passed a house the other day where someone had painted out the lower part of the capital B on a Biss sign so it said Daniel Piss. Isn’t that horrible?
71, 73-That’s really interesting. You’re probably not going to like me saying this, but I think one of the (only) good things Bush did was raise awareness about Republican policies, and who knows, maybe he’ll be an example to future Republican candidates as to what they shouldn’t do.
I think its really stupid that I thought this was funny. But yesterday, I heard an ad driving in NH (for Debate tournament) and the people running for governor there are John Sinoonoo and Jean Shaheen. I thought it was one of those joke election advertisements but i was surprised to find out that those were the people’s actual names.
80- *smiles* *giggles* *bursts out laughing*
John Sinoonoo’s name reminds me of that banana song, the one where people go “I like banay-nays”. I don’t quite remember what it’s called. Anyway, I would love to be able to write a name like THAT on an English paper. ‘John Sinoonoo’, I’d say, and the everyone would be like, “What?”.
80- Those were their REAL last names?
81- You mean that one from Barney called Apples and Bananas? *chuckles*
Three more Obama signs have been burnt, making the known total six. Still no suspects.
7- she scares me too. if Palin became President, America would be destroyed. She dislikes alternative energy–no–violently opposes it, agrees with the Bush doctrine, and has almost no idea of foreign policy.
Alright, I can’t vote, but my views haven’t changed. I would vastly prefer Obama to four more years of pointless decisions; of the war in Iraq; and most importantly, the destruction of the people.
81–no, please, nooooooooooo! Now you’ve got that song stuck in my head. Argh! All I can see/hear now is Baby Bop singing in her baby voice on stage on one of those stupid Barney tapes I have…..Barney in concert. Aggie, how could you?
81- Ditto! I call the song “Ayples and Banaynays” and it annoyed the HECk out of everyone who heard it!
86- *kills self*
Okay, so on the Rachel Maddow Show last night, the entire fact why Obama should be president brought up in about 45 seconds: during a speech, he mentioned pie (sweet potato, lemon lime, banana creme, and apple) 17 times in under a half an hour. Come on, people!!!!!
This one had me in stitches for awhile.
Frankly, I think (wow, surprise, eh?) that you shouldn’t inflict a name on your kid that will set them up to be mocked and spat on by other children… (78) Daniel Bliss, Daniel P-…. oh dear. And naming your kid something like “Owen Owens?” or “Tom Thomas?” What about poor Ima Hogg?? No joke. She was some Texas politican’s daughter in the late 1800s, I believe. She never married, obviously, but gave generously to charities.
Ooch. And Sarah Palin’s nickname, “Mooseslayer?”
It’s quite funny, but quite awful.
Haha.
I think your name can determine your fate.
89- Which is why I’m naming my children Nymphadora, Calliope, and Carlisle.
83-That’s horrible! They don’t have to vote for him, but they shouldn’t destroy other people’s property because those people ARE voting for him.
(80) The politician’s name is John E. Sununu. His father, John H. Sununu, was governor of New Hampshire and George H. W. Bush’s chief of staff. The name is Lebanese and doesn’t seem to have hurt their careers.
You can read about Sununu on Wikipedia:
http :// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Sununu
85- Sorry! I know how you feel. I’ve DEFINETLY been there.
93–‘sall right, it fortunately didn’t stay in my head very long at all, probably cuz I forgot msot of the words…..
This week, both candidates released detailed new plans for reviving the United States economy. You can see the main points of each proposal, without editorializing or analysis, at www . reuters .com/article/governmentFilingsNews/idUSN143086020081014
92- sorry- hukd on fonix
64- well the only two parties that really count are the Conservatives and the liberals. Stephen Harper with the Conservatives is the surrent prime minister (he also just won the election) He has a minority govenment which means that the conservatives have less than half the seats on the house. this means that is he wants to pass a law he has to bribe another party to vote for the passing of his law in parlament. Stephan Dion was headding the liberals. he lost the election so they are going to select a new leader. sorry, mr. Dion. so that is my summary of Canadian politics. I apolagize if I have lost you along the way.
so the place that i work just got in the newspaper for their election cookies! we had a ton of people coming in today and going “..oh no! the [insert donkeys or elephants] are ahead! we need to buy some cookies!”
seriously, it’s kind of brilliant
98- that is a way to sell lots of cookies. Or anything for that matter. Whoa. What a great idea.
Groundhog, are you voting, and if so for whom? Forgive me if someone’s already asked this, I haven’t been following this thread too closely…..
Obama’s the best, McCain’s insane!
And only 13 more days ’till the election!
It aches my head to see all these people for McCain most of those people think he’s the lesser of the two devils, but WHAT IS WRONG WITH OBAMA?! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! most people havent said yet!
We are Obama llamas,
We are Obama llamas,
We are Obama llamas,
We are O-
Bama llamas!
*sung to the tune of Move It from Madagascar*
…Yeah. I made this up at school today-bored 5th graders do chat, you know!
56~ Yes, I had some idea because I read the newspaper. Please don’t ask me anything more about it though, as I don’t know that much about it at all.
81~ Apples and Bananas. Barnie the big purple dinosaur. *shudders*
89~ Hmm, so what am I going to be, a plant?
90~ No, please. I know we’ve been over this before…Calliope and Carlisle are okay, if you must, but I’d strongly discourage Nymphadora.
94~ How can you forget the words?! It’s just “I love to eat, eat, eat, apples and bananas!” over and over again, going through the vowels each time…..hideously annoying and not in the least educational, in my unhumble opinion.
102- He is liberal. Very, very liberal. That’s what.
102- They haven’t said yet? Just like Obama hasn’t said what his specific plans are, and how they will affect us? And I can’t believe how little Obama is trying to hide the fact that he’s socialist. Did anyone hear about his conversation with Joe the plumber? “Spread the wealth?” Same thing Lenin said. But, you know, I’m just observing.
106–yeah, my dad says Obama’s a socialist, too. Ranted in an email all about Obama’s college education plan and exactly how stupid/horrible it was, ending with something along the lines of how Obama is a total socialist.
106- He’s not a socialist. He’s a good family man.
McCain is bizzare.
109- too true!
105- there’s something wrong with that?
106- McCain has said his specific plans? when did this happen?
Obama has more description than him!
107&108- All of Europe is socialist why shouldn’t we be?
106- Did you know Joe the plumber dosent have a plumbing license so if he’s doing any plumbing its illegal? What a laugh, if your going to make a plumber the focus of a debate you should probably make sure he has a plumbing license!
108- Prove it.
109- Elaborate.
110- First, don’t make gross generalizations like your Europe comment. Things like that are what start wars. It’s like saying “All Jews are evil.” or “All Muslims hate Americans.” Second, IBCF is obviously conservative, and therefore has very different ideals and opinions than Barack Hussein Obama. Third, who the he** cares whether he has lisence or not? Is that supposed to be relevant, or what? And fourth, how is McCain bizarre?
I just want to say, this is getting a little on the heated side. Everyone has his/her own opinion.
Wait, I think I posted something, but it dissapeared.
Anyways, Obama came to my town today. He talked at the pool. The backup five miles from the pool wasn’t even funny. Like, everybody went. People got out from school to go. I didn’t go, because my Dad went early and couldn’t pick me up.
I really wanted to. 
Anyways, here’s my views. McCain wouldn’t be too bad, I guess. I’m not supporting him, no way, and (IMHO) his issues aren’t great, especially his views on Iraq and gay marrage. But Palin, whoo. She’s scary. Although she’s kind of attractive (no, not like that) because she’s a “typical”
soccerhockey mom (read: pitbull + lipstick) (her joke, not mine), and she sold that jet on E-Bay. But otherwise, her opinions are way screwed up.Obama is funded by George Soros. His issues might look good, but the people he’s backed by are Nazis. Literally. And when you’re backed by somebody, you usally do what they want. I don’t want a Nazi running my country.
And plus, he’s way to vauge. “Change”. Seriously? He’s a DEMOCRAT. We KNOW he wants change. But WHAT change, and how will it AFFECT us as citizans?
O.k. Did any one Get the joke in 108? *sigh*
A few weeks back at a McCain rally, some crazy lady came and start to ask things about Obama being a arab. and the McCain said:
“No Ma’am, He’s not arab, He’s a good family man.”
Meaning, apparently, that arabs aren’t good family men, and vice veras
(Sorry, I just found this…)
15- I learned it as:
Limas and jellybeans,
Of the United States of Asparagus,
I come before you to sit behind you and tell you things I don’t know about
Like the five corners of a circle.
We will have a ladies meeting held for men, so please
Close the door in front of you,
Pull up a chair,
And sit on the floor.
You know that camping trip I went on with my GS troop? Well, it turns out that half of my troop was for Obama and the other half was for McCain.
(Obama supporters)
McCain is a pain in the rain!
Oh yeah? Well, Obama did something with yo’ mama!
Just shut up and start lashing!
(McCain supporters)
(Me)
Ugh.
90- no one wants to be named after a Harry Potter character. I’m sorry if you just like the name but your child’s friends parents will have read HP in their youth and they will be all “oh. poor thing their parent must be a potter fanatic”. that is why although I love ginny’s full name I will be nameing my daughter (if I have one) Josephine Rose.
111- Well if he dosent have a lisence he’s not legaly so if he has done any plumbing and gotten paid for it it was illegal!
118- First of all, learn how to spell. Or get a spell checker. That just bugs the cake out of me. Second, why has this even been brought up? I ask again, who cares?
112- Liberals seem to outnumber conservatives ten to one, so I’m speaking ten times as loud.
119–you will be happy to hear the all of the kids in my group at bio lab (all four of us) are planning to vote for McCain. And one of the guys on my floor said that he just finished filling out his ballot–and that he voted for McCain. Which set off this one girl. So, the guy said that he had filled out his absentee, and the girl’s like “And voted for McCain?” And he’s like, hell yeah (and then leaves to go do something else). And she starts on about how she doesn’t like McCain that he’ll get in screw up the country, and then die, leaving Palin in charge. so she starts ranting about Palin, and me and this other guy (no clue if he’s pro McCain or pro Obama) are just looking at each other, cuz he knows I’m from AK. So the girl has her back to me, as she’s going on about Palin and how she can see Russia from her back porch. And I”m trying not to crack up, and the guy is looking at me, and when she finally stops ranting, he goes, “You know she’s from Alaska?” ANd the girl turns around and says, “Can you see Russia from your back porch too?” And I”m just like, no.
I mean, seriously people, get over that whole interview thing already. Palin may not do well in the interviews, but she makes up for it during the debates. And there is one person that everytime she sees me, she starts the conversation with “How’s Russia?” And it’s just like, please, just shut up. I mean, it’s not like I am the one who said that, not everyone from Alaska are clones. Don’t stereotype. It’s irritating, so even if Palin is an idiot (which I”m not saying she is , but I”m not saying she isn’t), that doesn’t mean all Alaskans are idiots.
/rant
117- mm. There is a school near where I live and my friend goes there and I was flipping through the yearbook and there were some Eowyns and Arwens so it’d be similar with Harry Potter names.
102- Well, let’s see. How many ways can I list an answer to this one?
-Democrat
-Liberal
-SOCIALIST
-Pro-Abortion
-Friend of terrorists (if you make me say ‘Heil Obama’ I’ll smack
you upside the head)
-Too stereotypical
-Thinks that John McCain is George Bush
-Thinks that people are causing global warming (they AREN’T)
-Isn’t going to fix tax problems no matter what he tells us, because he’s a billionare and that would be a waste of his money
-Doesn’t care about us average Joes (yea plumbers!)
-Wants to pull out the troops, a.k.a. get the country killed
-Is going to force me to move back to Ireland (too many potatoes!)
-Chose Joe Biden for his VP (icky)
-Wants to use marijuana as MEDICINE [are you crazy???!!!]
– Supports illegal immigrants who are going to push our population out of jobs just as much as outsourcing
-Supports the death penalty when “the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage”, which is still murder
– Supports Proposition 2 (Stem cell research that involves testing and destroying human embryos)
-Is nearly as inexperienced as Sarah Palin is
– Does not support independant buisnesses
-Although he claims that he will make health care available to everyone, nobody can afford to pass out free health care, not even the government.
– Supports major tax cuts- if you cut taxes from where they are now, it will affect millions of programs including the public school system and healthcare in a negative way so nobody’s winning. Let’s face it. America’s a greedy nation, and the more money we have in this terrible economy, the better chance that we will waste it and use it unwisely. Letting the government use our money to fund schools and to make public systems a better place is more rational than using it to buy drugs and waste on stupid material goods like video games and lip gloss.
110:
-No.
-Yes.
– Of course he has plans. Where have you been living, under a rock or something?
-Because socialism sucks.
-FYI, your precious Obama supports illegal work. And how are you going to prove Joe doesn’t have a license? Logogeo, I think you better actually get some solid facts before you start ranting about how Obama’s going to ‘fix’ our country, because so far you’ve done nothing but cause consternation among us.
119- Right on. *high-fives* FINALLY some more conservative people have shown up.
Sorry for the ranting. I’m just very passionate about this topic.
I personally don’t think Mcain would fix this country up any better than Obama would. In fact Mcain stated that if he talked economics he would lose. That can’t mean good!
I mean McCain
120-That surprises me. Have you heard Palin’s views on abortion?
Somewhere I heard Palin spent $150,000 or something outrageous like that on clothes in the past two months. And, I believe, she used taxpayer money, too. This I find disturbing, particularly considering how she likes to characterize herself as a good ol’ American mom.
122-In the interest of accuracy, I would kindly disagree with you. My responses to your complaints, in order:
1. Obama is a democrat. McCain is a Republican. I don’t see how that’s really a problem, unless one only ever votes for a republican. That would be kind of narrow-minded if you ask me. Why don’t we just ask everybody if they’re a Democrat or a Republican and choose whichever candidate is of the party favored by more Americans? Because every person is different, and every candidate is a little different.
2. See above.
3. What?
4. Agrrrfishi, few people are PRO-abortion. Obama isn’t, from what I’ve seen.
5. How is he a friend of terrorists? He happens to live on the same street as some dude who was one several decades ago? Please go onto the sex offender registry. You’ll probably find some pretty nasty people right down the street from you.
6.
7. I don’t see where this is too far off.
8. Huh? John McCain thinks people are causing Climate Change, too. (Please please please don’t bring that topic onto this thread please)
9. John McCain has 12 houses. Obama: one. I doubt he’s a billionaire, but McCain surely has more money than Obama anyway.
10. Middle Class isn’t in McCain’s vocabulary, at least not as far as I can tell. Obama is always talking about “Joe.” McCain is always talking about the economy relative to businesses, from what I’ve observed.
11. How does pulling out the troops “kill the country?” He wants to set a timetable for withdrawal, anyway, not “Pull them all out.” Think about it this way: They couldn’t have a debate without a timetable. How can you have a war without one? Also, Obama wants to put more forces into Afghanistan where (from what I’ve heard, I haven’t been there, mind you) the terrorists are.
12. He’s forcing our dear Agrrrfishi out of the country? I hadn’t heard that. Hey, wait a minute-I thought you just said he didn’t care about the average Joe!
13. Icky? *Snickers*
14.
15. You just said he doesn’t care about the average Joe. How come all of a sudden you complain he supports immigrants coming to America (about as Joe as you can go)?
16.
17. You don’t believe in advances in medicine? I mean, babies are cute and all, but there are times when stem cells would be necessary to save a person who’s already here. You’ve got to kill one or the other. Who are you to choose to let another person die?
18. He can speak in full sentences. He knows what he’s talking about. There are plenty of differences!
19. From what I’ve seen, he supports small businesses. It’s wrong of him not to give tax breaks to the oil companies, which are making billions? I thought earlier you said you didn’t like billionaires…
20. Please explain why it’s better to hand out money to people. $5,000 (I believe that’s right) wouldn’t get you a blood test in today’s world.
21. Obama wants to tax those who can afford it and reduce taxes on those who can’t so they can eat. And get a roof over their heads. McCain criticizes Obama in his ads because Obama wants “big government.” It seems to me overtaxing the poor and then trying to pretend you can house and feed them is big government. Bordering on “Socialism” as Obama is continually blamed of wanting.
Sorry about all of that. I just saw a lot of inconsistencies and false facts in there, and I had many questions. Do please answer them before you bring something else up; I’d be very interested in hearing your responses!
113-He came to your town? Dude! Either of them coming is a big deal. Oh, and I thought she sold the jet at a loss somewhere else. It seemed like a cute way to cover up other things she did spend money on. I also believe she spent money on expensive hotel rooms for her family, even for things entirely unrelated to being governor.
It’s hard to trust any of these characters. You don’t know if they’ll really do what they say. The best you can do is look for the one who is saying they’ll do the right thing. Why would someone already admitting they’ll do the wrong thing sneak in and do the right thing?
Red-tailed HAWK
*Sees post* Pies to the GAPA who moderates that dreadfully long comment! *Hands over pies*
Sorry if it sounded flame-y. It wasn’t meant to be, I’m really curious about what other people are thinking here!
Red-tailed HAWK
112- I’m not going to respond to your whole post, because I could post most of the opposite things and it wouldn’t mean more than your post did, but I’d like to clear up your response to 110.
~”socialism sucks” is not an argument.
~What illegal work does Obama support?
~I know that Joe doesn’t actually have a license and that his real name is Sam from CNN.
125–HAWK, what surprises you? That I am leaning toward McCain? And yes, I do know Palin’s views on abortion. And no, I really don’t agree with them–I am more pro-choice, especially under certain circumstances (rape, harm to th emother). But I don’t feel like going into that–if you want more on my opinion on that, I suggest you go to the most recent Hot Topic thread. However, to me, although Palin and her views are important as a vice presidential candidate, I feel it is more important to vote based upon the actual presidential candidate, not on, “Well, this is the person who will take over IF this other person dies…..so even though the presidential candidate will totally screw our country over, I’ll vote for him on the off-chance that he dies, we will have this super awesome vp instead [or vice versa–I won’t vote for this super awesome guy–and no, I am not trying to imply that McCain is super awesome, as he’s not–just because his vp sucks]”
as far as my political views, I really don’t care that much for either of the candidates, but at this point, from what I’ve seen, McCain seems like he will be better for this country. Great? No. Better than Obama? I think so. Will Obama win? Probably–he is a smooth talker, even if what he says doesn’t necessarily mean naything, and he contradicts himself all the time.
I am also sure part of my political views stem from the fact that I was raised by parents who are republican leaning (I’m not saying htey would never vote for a democrat, but they usually tend to be more in agreement with republicans), my grandmother is a republican, as is my sister. And all of them dislike Obama. Of course, I dont’ think either my mom or dad particularly like McCain either, they just like him better than Obama.
As far as Palin spending tax payer money on clothes/family vacations (hotel rooms), I don’t think that’s true. I think that is just crap that some Palin/McCain hater started to try and get support for Obama. I don’t recall a single thing in the news back home about Palin misusing taxpayer money, and never heard any allegations on anything about that until after she became VP. Which implies to me that that is just false dirty campaiging on the part of Obama supporters. I think if there were any truth behind it, that there would ahve been something in the news about it back home when she was still just the governor, not the VP candidate.
I’d rather vote Palpatine-Vader than McCain-Palin or Obama-Biden.
125- Ah, yes, Obama is totally not pro-abortion. I mean, voting yes for every bill making abortion easier to obtain does not mean he supports it. Especially partial-birth abortions. Information: partial-birth abortions are abortions in which a child is born, and stabbed in the head with scissors. The brains are then sucked out, killing the poor baby, who can feel just as much pain as you can. And Obama has repeatedly voted to make them more widespread. But he’s not pro-abortion, right?
What’s wrong with being a little bit socialist? I mean, the ideal of communism is impossible to achieve (according to the most recent Muse, the case is the same with democracy…?), and there always seems to be a group of power-hungry people who take over and make things pretty miserable.
But socialism is not communism. And borrowing ideas that would work is certainly not a bad plan.
I’m surprised at the number of MBers who support McCain…
Re: burning campaign signs…that’s disgusting!
Obama is not a Muslim… and there would be nothing wrong with that if he was!
114-Teeheehee… but kinda scary, too.
131- Well, we shouldn’t worry about democracy. We’re not one.
129- Vader? It’s Nader, dude. Or did you mean…?
I think Obama is better than McCain–but, if it was possible, I would still vote for Nader.
But Nader’s not going to get elected, neither is the Green Party candidate. So, Obama is the only choice.
125- *sigh* Here we go, forcing me to make an equally as long rebuttal… Therefore, I’m going to ultracondense my replies so as to make a shorter post and less flaming. Plus, I’m too tired and cranky right now.
~ I am a Republican. Therefore, I’m going to vote for the Republican candidate because he supports my beliefs. It’s only that simple.
~ I did. Same answer.
~I said that he was a socialist. And he is.
~We’ve been over this already. OBAMA is Pro-Choice. MCCAIN is Pro-Life.
~ He is. I did. I don’t.
~ Stereotypes. He got ’em.
~ No two people are ever the same, just like no two snowflakes are ever the same. Everybody is always made different. It’s how life works. If you’ve been watching the same debates I have, then you’ll be able to see clearly that John McCain has a lot of different strategies than George Bush. Just because they’re both Republicans and they both have white hair doesn’t mean they are the same.
~ I won’t. I swear.
~Not true.
~ That’s very true. Good that you agree. *snickers* But just in case, I would look at that post again, just to make sure you said what I interpreted. Just a suggestion, even though what you said is completely correct.
~ The angry Iraqis come on over with their weapons and car bombs and blow up the United States because nobody’s keeping an eye on them. End of story. We’re fried.
~ I don’t really understand that. Can you develop that thought more, please?
~ Yes. He gives me the creeps. *shivers*
~ He does.
~ Because they’re against the law and they’re going to force your parents out of jobs for cheaper labor.
~He does.
~ I have nothing against stem cell research, but you can do the same thing WITHOUT destroying a human embryo. Just using the umbilical cord of a baby gives the same substance as an embryo would for experimentation.
~ Anyone can speak in full sentences, including Sarah Palin; I’m not saying it deserves a medal. He is very young and doesn’t know as much as McCain, just like Palin.
~Then you haven’t seen enough.
~See the next comment I made.
~ You have some flawed logic in there. I feel like you keep confusing names, even though, once again, you do have them correct from my standpoint. Please restate, try again, and then I will rebuttal.
127- (I believe that you were replying to 121 in your post, yes?)
~ I made it an argument.
~He supports illegal immigrants crossing over to America without passes and taking all our jobs. It’s like outsourcing, only against the law.
~That’s just some idiot trying to get attention because his name’s Joe. Everyone knows that Joe the Plumber is just a relative, fictional metaphoric character used to communicate some of McCain’s points.
117- I’m planning to name my eldest daughter Jessandra Tonks. All my other children will have Percy Jackson, Ember, and Twilight middle/first names. It depends on how nomal the name is. Let’s take this discussion over to the Words and Names thread, okay? This is polotics. *grabs Kagy’s arm and pulls over to W&N thread*
132-I didn’t say that we were a democracy… but many people think that it’s the job of the US to create democracies all over the world, and I’m just saying that that method of government is a little flawed, just like all of the other ones. XD
Does anybody care about the environment? I’d like think about the environment too. I’m worried more about the environment than the economy! McCain doesn’t seem to care about the environment as much as Obama.
By the way, who said Obama is a socialist and what is wrong with spreading the wealth around, isn’t that what should be happening? Shouldn’t everybody be getting a part of the wealth? Also if you know what real socialism is, Obama is clearly not a socialist. Also, just want to let you guys know that I like McCain and what he has done for our country. Anybody who has done as much as McCain, deserves respect. So does Obama, he would like to make this country better, not destroy it. I don’t think he is a terrorist. Just because he has a friend who was, doesn’t meen he is! So please respect each candidate all of you.
137-That was my original argument for Democracy. (see post #0) I am much more concerned with the enviroment than with the economy.
138-I am not all that involved with politics. At the risk of sounding incredibly stupid, I am going to ask what a socialist is.
138–oh, yes, please, spread the wealth. *note sarcasm, please* Take the money from the rich (those who have worked their butts off to get where they are), and give it to the bums on the street–many of whom would rather spend money on alcohol/drugs instead of doing an honest days work. Now, I”m not saying that all poor people are poor because they ahve screwed away their money, but many of them are, and taxing the rich to give to the poor would merely be enabling those people, encouraging them to continue their lifestyle instead of getting their act together and getting themselves a job.
How owuld you like it if you spent your life getting a decent education and then working to get somewhere in life where you ahd a decen tmonetary status–would you want that moeny to be taken from you (and your children) to be given to somebody who couldn’t be bothered to go to college and work like you did? I don’t think so.
As far as Obama goes, no I don’t htink he’s a aterrorist, but neither do I think he is what’s best for our country.
uh-oh–I hope that didn’t come across as flamey. I didn’t mean it that way! My apologies if it did, Widget.
140-But most of those people have inherited their wealth… just as so many of the others were born into poverty. Those that turn to drugs find a way to “escape” their situation, and then become addicted, and it’s horrible and sad. And there are plenty of rich people who drink and use drugs too, who have no need to do a day’s work do get the money to buy intoxicating substances, because their ancestors “worked their butts off” for them.
And I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be flame-y either.
Obama servedonacommittee with William Ayers, who commited horrible crimes when the democratic presidential nominee was eight years old .
I’m really worried about the environment…it’s kind of been pushed out of the spotlight thanks to the economy issues, I guess.
130(And Aggie too.)- You are disgusting me. And I don’t mean your description of abortion. It sounds like you’re writing those smear emails I get every so often. But that was your intent, right?
If you think that Obama, or any other sane person is pro-abortion, than you are deluded. I too wish that abortion would never happen, but this world we live in is not perfect. Let’s further your story for a bit. This poor baby is the child of a crack-addicted woman living in the streets in poverty who was raped, and could not go to an abortion clinic because she’s living in a very conservative region, where abortion is illegal due to the passing of a law that McCain has supported. Will the child die a very painful death soon?
I won’t take the time to debate the abortion argument with you, because we both know it won’t get anywhere, but I will not stand for you to call Obama, a true American and role model, a cold-hearted killer. Why didn’t you just say that Obama is “Pro-death”? That would’ve saved time, and made as much sense.
134- No, he’s a real guy. Wikipedia has a locked article on him, entitled “Joe the Plumber.” CNN has plenty of video.
142–still, if you worked your butt off, thus meaning you could leave a substantial inheritance to your children/grandchilren, would you want that money to be taken away from them to be given to people who could earn a decent living, but don’t bother? And yes, some people are born in to poverty, but taxing the rich to give to the poor wouldn’t evaluate each person and go, hey this person legitimately tried to get a job, but couldn’t, whereas this person just doesn’t even bother. They’d give them both money, enabling the individuals who could make a decent living if they bothered.
143- “Why didn’t you just say that Obama is “Pro-deathâ€? That would’ve saved time, and made as much sense.”
I completely agree. I’m glad you see it my way.
And no, that baby can certainly be adopted and cared for. It’s not automatic that every baby who lives with an unsupporting mother automatically dies. It doesn’t happen that way. And most of those girls who have willing sex and are irresponsible are going to take advantage of the fact that they can murder and kill anything that they cause. Life doesn’t work that way. Only murder should disgust you, not my opinions.
I just don’t think that anyone can argue against abortion and still eat meat or eggs. It’s hypocritical and specist (like racist, only with species, not race) and I despise anyone that thinks of humans as more important than other species. But that’s all I’ll say.
Our school has a mock election. I don’t see why they even bother with mock elections, if the opinion of the average high schooler doesn’t matter in the big picture. I mean, honestly. If you don’t think we’re intelligent enough to make a difference (as if our 18th birthday somehow brought some wisdom that we didn’t have before, geez), then don’t pretend you think we’re intelligent enough to make a difference! It’s simple!
Gr. I hate government. I’m going to go be an Anarchist.
145, 143 – “Pro-Death” is certainly not Obama’s platform on abortion. That term is taking the whole issue out of context. No one is celebrating the fact that a life (depending on when/where you believe “life” begins) could be ended. The platform is referred to as “pro-choice” because it supports a woman’s right to choose what happens to her own body, not because it encourages her to needlessly take another life. Sure, in a perfect world, all children would be conceived in love and wanted, but we’re not living in that world. Women deserve the right to choose whether or not they are ready for a child.
I consider myself pro-choice. But, I doubt I could ever get an abortion. That doesn’t mean I have the right to make that decision for every other woman in America. My choices are my own, and I would never dream of pushing them on another woman. If you don’t believe in abortions, good for you, don’t get one, but don’t tell another woman how to live her life. After all, I doubt any pro-life women would appreciate someone telling her she had to get an abortion.
“And most of those girls who have willing sex and are irresponsible are going to take advantage of the fact that they can murder and kill anything that they cause.”
This statement is offensive on so many levels. Do you still stand by it in cases of rape and incest?
“And no, that baby can certainly be adopted and cared for. It’s not automatic that every baby who lives with an unsupporting mother automatically dies.”
This also goes the other way. Not all babies are loved and cared for the way they deserve, even if they are adopted. Children might have good lives, or they might not, but that has little to do with whether or not abortions are ethical or whether or not they should be legal.
106 – And what’s wrong with a little socialism? That might be what America needs right now!
120 – Actually in one debate, Obama mentioned that he would be glad, as one of the wealthier Americans, to pay a little more so that the rest of us Americans could have our tax breaks. Also, Joe Biden is 49th out of 50 in terms of the personal wealth of senators. Neither of them are exactly living extravagant lifestyles.
122 – Aggie – I’m really amused by your reaction to medicinal marijuana use. I also had no idea Obama was running such a reefer friendly campaign! Why do you oppose it so much?
124)
“Friend of terrorists (if you make me say ‘Heil Obama’ I’ll smack
you upside the head)”
your insinuation that obama is in anyway similar to hitler is repulsive and beyond offensive. that is not something to joke about. that…is not even something I can think of a reply to.
129- Why? You don’t like either cantidate?
What is so wrong with socialism? It often goes wrong, yes, but so do most systems and our country is not set up as a socialist country and I highly doubt Obama would suddenly change it to be one. If he is a bit more socialist leaning personally, which I don’t think would make him /socialist/, that probably wouldn’t affect his policies. They’d be liberal policies, true, but not socialist ones.
Also. Obama is not a friend of terrorists. That is a scare tactic started by anti-Obama people. A rather nasty one at that. Calling whichever cantidate a ‘friend of terrorists’ is just silly given that I highly doubt either would want the country that they could be running in the future attacked by terrorists.
All right already!
Look, everyone. I can’t say enough how sorry I am if any opinions were offensive. I wrote those things at a time when I was very unhappy, and I guess that not all of them were correct. GAPAS, if you would, please delete those posts(122, 145,etc.). I think that my being here as a Republican and having everyone else have a different stand means that there is no use trying to argue my points. I’m going to leave now. I really can’t stand this election anymore. It’s practically tearing us apart.
According to Princeton University, socialism is “an economic system based on state ownership of capital,” which is what Obama is striving for.
148, 150- What’s wrong with socialism? Why not ask the millions of people whose lives have been ruined or even ended because of it?
According to Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, revolution is “a fundamental change in political organization, or in a government or constitution.” If that’s not what Obama wants, what does he want?
143- I’m just informing everyone of what Obama supports. Nothing more, nothing less.
146- If you want to go by religion, animals don’t have souls. People do.
147- It’s not her own body she’s destroying.
In numerous court cases, people have slain pregnant women and been charged with double homicide. Remember Laci Peterson? Double homicide.
Unborn children have their own DNA, their own blood type, their own brain wave patterns, and their own fingerprints. How are they not human? What makes you be considered a “human?” Humans must have 46 chromosomes. All fetuses do. They must be produced by human parents. All fetuses are. What other criteria are there?
151 – There’s really no need for that. Certainly, no one wants you to leave. But, if you post your opinions on a public message board, you have to be ready to stand by them and anticipate that not everyone would agree.
Don’t blame the responses you got on being a Republican, either. Museblog seems to be leaning a lot more conservative than it was last time I was here. I think what people had/have a problem with is the language you used, not the actual view points behind your arguments. I was looking forward to discussing this election with you, but if you’re not comfortable doing that, alright. Sorry you feel you have to leave.
152 – I never stated that unborn children weren’t human. I was merely questioning where a life begins. Can you really say that a freshly fertilized egg is equivalent to a human being? If it’s a mass of cells, does that count as a life? Certainly, after a point, the fetus becomes more than a group of cells and becomes a child. I’m not exactly sure where to draw this line, but I find that irrellivant, because in the US “nearly nine in 10 abortions occurr before the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.” How developed is a fetus at 12 weeks? Not very. It’s only at 10 weeks that the technical term switches from embryo to fetus.
I’m not sure what your double homicide argument is. I would argue that the situation is very different from an abortion, because the woman did not have a choice in the matter and that’s why it’s referred to as double homicide. The court has no way of knowing whether or not the woman was planning to carry the baby to term. I think it’s just a case of abortion politics making their way into the legal system and an easy way of hitting the murderer with some extra charges.
“It’s not her own body she’s destroying.”
Yes, it is. If a woman is not in control of her own body, I think that’s a dangerous road to government controls on more aspects of life. Think about it the other way. Would you like a government telling you you had to get an abortion? No, I didn’t think so.
If we make abortions illegal, that doesn’t mean none will occur. It will just make it more difficult to get one. Instead of safe procedures and clean operations, a lot more unsafe and unhygienic abortions will occur. They will be more dangerous and more expensive. I think that is a much larger problem than the safe, protected abortions we have today.
153- Oh, I don’t know. I think I could’ve involuntarily ripped the republican Musers to shreds if I hadn’t left this thread. Like right now; I practically have to tape my fingers down to prevent myself from going nuts at Piggy right now (no offense).
*leaves*
155 – It’s easy for everyone to get overheated about politics, especially with the election a little more than a week away. I think we all just have to work hard at being civil and attacking the views or language involved, rather than the people who hold those beliefs. It’s counter-productive to attack them anyway – then you won’t have anyone to debate with!
There are a lot more conservative Musers than I remember, though. However, they still seem to feel like they are always being attacked. *sigh*
Go to www. livingroomcandidate. org. It has presidential ads dating back to 1952. (Watch the Ike one in 1952. The first one. I’s HILARIOUS. XD)
That was kind of random, but I will justify that by saying you can also watch McCain and Obama’s ads.
I’m voting for Ike.
152- That is the most HORRIBLE thing I have ever heard anyone say. Of COURSE animals have souls! If you were looking at it from a scientific perspective, I’d be fine, because scientists don’t pretend that humans have souls either, but that is just WRONG.
And I’m not going to pretend that I know anything about religion, but didn’t God give man dominion over animals or some other such thing? Doesn’t that mean that we should protect them, not shove them into tiny cages and kill them in horrible, brutal, barbaric ways while arguing that no fetus should ever be killed?
Please excuse me. I just think it’s wrong. I never go on the hot topics thread because of this, but that sometimes mean I bring the Hot Topics thread elsewhere.
152) true socialism and/or communism has never been known by the world. the Bolsheviks did not follow the idea that it will happen naturally and all subsequent movements are not truly socialist. as has been said many times on museblog socialism and communism are ideologies that would be wonderful in theory but can never be carried out correctly or for extended periods of time. Socialism does not involve the suppression of any group as those who have ruled under a socialist mantle have done. Some countries in Europe like )like finland) have what I suppose could be called “socialist” health care in that everyone has it. I see nothing wrong with that.
152- Specific example of socialism, please. Not failed communism, either.
And in regards to abortion, of course you’re saying “more.”
Also, what religion are you referring to? Probably your own.
This has become much more than a discussion about the election. Too much, maybe. I think a Hot Topic Classification notice should be added.
Zallie-
I do feel that I have to leave, and I will. But before I do, I just want to clear a few things up. First of all, I am not blaming the comments that were directed towards me upon being a Republican. However, that’s not to say that there isn’t an obvious bias against Republicans here on the blog, or anywhere else, for that matter. For every one Republican, there are five Democrats. And that means a personal feeling of dislike that is stronger than that towards a Democrat, therefore causing feelings of consternation that one wouldn’t ordinarily feel if they didn’t know what political standpoint you took. You cannot possibly deny that many of the comments posted on this thread have harder feelings towards McCain and his supporters rather than Obama and his own. It’s not true. I don’t appreciate it. I think that, all political views aside, we can be good friends. However, I think that posting my opinions here wasn’t such a good idea because now there’s going to be feelings towards me that I don’t want there. I’d like to get to know you, but not on this thread. The same goes for everyone. I can’t be viewed by what I say here when I go to other parts of the blog. It just wouldn’t be right.
Also, on the topic of abortion, I don’t really understand what kind of a point you’re trying to make. You say you’re pro-choice, and then you point out that nobody can force a woman to have an abortion. It seems as though you are on both sides of the argument. I don’t really get that. It’s like you’re pulling a Benedict Arnold or something. I don’t know what to think, and how to pose a rebuttal. But I’m going to do the best I can.
Let’s talk about life. Life is the moment, down to the exact millisecond, when an egg cell connects with a sperm cell. That is when the chemical reactions kick in. That is when a zygote forms. That is when a baby is made, my friend, and that is where life begins. And at the moment life begins, killing it or crushing the life out of an innocent child is murder. Now let’s think things over for a minute. If it became justifiable for someone to kill a child, then wouldn’t it be right in saying that you can kill another human being? Because that’s what a child is. A child, a fetus, a zygote, they are all the same thing. And they all become the same thing. That is the way that life is set up, that life is made. That is how life WORKS. And yes, a mass of cells is a life. As stated by the cell theory, ” Cells are the unit of structure and function in living things”. A fetus has structure and function when it is just a clump of cells, and it has life when it is just a clump of cells. Even if a fetus isn’t developed at twelve weeks, it’s still alive. You’re not a full-grown human right now, are you? So if somebody killed you right now, would it just not be murder because you aren’t fully DEVELOPED yet? It doesn’t matter how old or young you are, or how tiny! What matters is that you are still there, still alive, still crying out to stay on the earth as God meant for you to be. That dead baby that a mother murdered could have been a firefighter or a future president. It could have been a police officer who saved your from being shot point-blank on the side of the road. That baby could have been your husband or wife, your brother or your sister. It could have been your savior. And you would throw all of that away just because you didn’t deem it to be a life? That is why I could never vote for someone like Barack Obama, who can’t tell a life from a life.
161 (Aggie). Oh boy, there’s a lot to address here.
“However, that’s not to say that there isn’t an obvious bias against Republicans here on the blog, or anywhere else, for that matter. For every one Republican, there are five Democrats.”
Actually, the numbers are fairly even, that’s why the last presidential elections have been so close.
You cannot possibly deny that many of the comments posted on this thread have harder feelings towards McCain and his supporters rather than Obama and his own.
I can only speak for myself in this, but I would assume most Musebloggers take issue with the politics of McCain (or Obama) and not the candidate himself or his supporters. Both Candidates obviously love America and want to do what’s best for our nation, the only difference is the ways they plan to go about this.
“Also, on the topic of abortion, I don’t really understand what kind of a point you’re trying to make. You say you’re pro-choice, and then you point out that nobody can force a woman to have an abortion. It seems as though you are on both sides of the argument.”
I am not sure what is unclear about this. As I have stated many times, I support a woman’s right to choose. If she doesn’t feel comfortable getting an abortion, I support that. If she feels like an abortion is a necessary step, I support that as well. What I don’t support is the government telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her body.
I am not “on both sides of the argument.” The issue is not “pro-abortion” and “anti-abortion.” It’s not about the abortions, it’s about a woman’s right to medical treatment. I don’t think I would get one, but I don’t feel comfortable making that decision for all other American women. If a woman wants an abortion, it’s totally her right to get one, and it’s none of my business anyway.
“Let’s talk about life. Life is the moment, down to the exact millisecond, when an egg cell connects with a sperm cell.”
Okay, so you believe life begins at the instant of fertilization. I do not. For several weeks, a zygote is just a mass of cells, roughly equivalent to a tumor. I would argue that is not a complete life. Is it able to think for itself? Can it communicate? Is it capable of human emotions? No.
Also, on a related note, by your definition of life, a woman is murdering a potential child each time she uses a “morning after” pill. What are your views of birth control such as the morning after pill, the Pill etc.? Are they also forms of murder?
“Even if a fetus isn’t developed at twelve weeks, it’s still alive.”
I don’t know how you’re defining alive. If a fetus were born at 12 weeks, it would die immediately. It is only alive because it exists as a parasite inside its mother’s body. It is not capable of living on its own, rational thought, or even breathing air.
“That dead baby that a mother murdered could have been a firefighter or a future president. It could have been a police officer who saved your from being shot point-blank on the side of the road.”
Alright, how about this: what baby that a mother was forced to carry to term could have killed her in childbirth, leaving her other children without a mother and possibly without a father. That baby could have led a miserable life and ended up in prison for violent crimes. There is simply no way of knowing. Sure, an aborted child could have done great things, but he also could be the next Mussolini or the next Stalin. That argument is simply invalid.
This debate should not be about whether or not an abortion is “murder.” No “pro-choice” supporter is “pro-abortions;” they aren’t taken lightly by any of us. Most doctors counsel against abortions in cases where the patient is past the first trimester. No, none of us are “pro-abortion.” But, we believe in supporting a woman’s choice to make the decisions that she believes are best for her own body. The thought of the government deciding what medical care I can and cannot have access to just makes my skin crawl. That is why I could never vote for a pro-life candidate, because they are taking away my freedom, as a woman, to chose what to do with my own body.
And, a few questions which none of the pro-life/anti-choice supporters have answered, although I’ve asked several times:
1. So, you don’t support a woman’s right to choose if she has an abortion or not. How would you feel if the government forced you to have an abortion? Would you like that?
2. Are you still anti-choice/pro-life in situations of rape or incest, or in situations where carrying a child to term is dangerous to the mother’s health?
152 (Piggy) – As has capitalism/imperialistic capitalism not ruined the lives of thousands (millions?) of people across the world? Because it has.
Zallie sure knows how to debate.
(Not that everyone else isn’t very intelligent and capable, but I was just impressed by her rhetoric in those last posts.)
Thanks for that link, Kokonilly!
163- How has capitalism ruined people’s lives?
165- There are 9,500,000 milionaires in the world, accounting for 0.15% of the population. At least 80% of humanity lives on less than a dollar a day. Due to capitalism, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.
“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.â€
Dom Hélder Pessoa Câmara
166- So how should economies work? Make it so that everyone gets the same amount of money?
165 – Well, the free market seems to have taken a downward turn lately, hasn’t it? That’s affecting every day Americans, for sure. People are losing their jobs, savings etc. As the campaigns keep saying, the greed on Wall Street is hurting the folks on Main Street!
There was a similar situation in the 1930s, when capitalism failed the American people. Our grandparents grew up in that era, which certainly wasn’t an easy one. There were no jobs, no food, no houses. Thank god for FDR.
In the early 1900’s, capitalistic imperialism (from the US in particular) meddled with the governments and economies of Latin American countries and the Philippines in order to protect American investments. Revolts against the new systems were put down very harshly. “Big stick” foreign policy was popular in those days, as America believed it had a duty to help countries that were on the “wrong path.” Unfortunately, the “wrong path” was often just a ploy to gain the US more open markets, more investments, more money.
I guess you could argue that this is a problem with the implementation of capitalism rather than capitalism itself, but the cases of problematic socialism that have been presented are also situations where the problem is the implementation of the philosophy. Socialism as a concept and ideology is strong, but it has yet to be implemented effectively. I’m still hopeful. European countries such as Finland and Sweden seem to be having a good deal of success lately.
154- Well, considering I’m a boy, I’d think that the government had gone bonkers.
More posts later. Time for school.
163- Capitalism can ruin lives, but it also is more efficient than communism. Communism always leads to totalitarianism, whereas capitalism only sometimes does.
169 – My apologies. How about your girlfriend, then (assuming you’re not homosexual)? Your mother? Your sister? Aunt? If they were suddenly forced to undergo an abortion (if it’s your girlfriend, that’s your child as well!), would you like that?
170 – “Communism always leads to totalitarianism.”
I’d like your sources for this one! What makes you so sure?
“Capitalism can ruin lives, but it also is more efficient than communism. ”
Naturally, you’d say this. You are a capitalist! But, I’m not sure I understand. In what ways is it “more efficient?” Should we be picking our economic systems based on efficiency? Opposed to, say, what is best for the people?
171- My sources? Ummm….. CCCP/stalin, north viet nam/ ho chi minh, china/mao tse tung, angola/jonas savimbi, cambodia/pol pot, albania/enver hoxha, yugoslavia/slobodan milosevic, cuba/fidel castro, DPKR/the kims (jong il and sung il) and I could keep going if you named me all the communist countries ever. I said that capitalism is more efficient because it leads to less dictators than communism. Of course, there are exceptions, but its not to the point where every capitalist nation is run by a bloodthirsty dictator like it is in communism.
Lets have a moment of silence for the Icelandic economy. HvÃld inn friður.
171- What is best for the people? Liberty and justice. That is what capitalism offers.
172 – I guess I don’t agree with your definition of ‘efficient.’ You seem to be defining it as: “leads to less dictators!” If you had said, “In the past, capitalism has led to less dictators than communism!” I probably would have agreed. Is that what you mean? Or, are you implying something about the actual mechanics of communism vs. capitalism?
You are making a big deal about “efficiency,” but is that really the quality we should be picking our economic systems based on?
I made this point above, but I’ll make it again. There have been problems with the implementation of communism in the past, I’ll give you that, but it has the potential to be incredibly beneficial for the people. Countries which have socialist health-care systems (Finland etc.) seem to be doing very well for themselves lately, while capitalist countries are struggling. Finish citizens are prosperous by global standards and have one of the best public education systems in the world, not to mention health-care for all. Communism and socialism have a bad past, but especially with the recent successes of other semi-Socialist countries, it’s been shown they don’t always have to lead to totalitarianism.
173 – But it’s liberty and justice for a few. Can you honestly say that all Americans have an equal shot at the American dream? I’ve heard rags-to-riches stories, so I know it is possible, but the reality is that there are disenfranchised groups in society, who are not equally represented.
Also, I would argue that “liberty and justice” are what the US claims to offer, not capitalism. Capitalism offers a free-market, competition and a (supposed) chance to better one’s status.
What’s best for the people? A society, where everyone belongs to the middle class, where everyone has the health services they need, enough food, access to world-class public education, free speech and press, a voice in government, etc.
I think that’s possible in many governmental systems, depending on how they are implemented.
172- “You are making a big deal about “efficiency,†but is that really the quality we should be picking our economic systems based on?”
Ummm……duh? Merriam Webster defines “efficient” as : “being or involving the immediate agent in producing an effect”. If our effect here is money, then of course you need an efficient government or else a country will fall into money problems like poor little Iceland (btw, GAPAS, has the Muse Academy taken any hits from its home country’s loss?)! And I’m not taking out bits of socialism in the government, that’s fine, it happens in the US! And the Scandinavian healthcare systems are tops in the world? If you are trying to establish a fully socialist nation that will never work, ever (with the exception of a couple of kibbutzes).
175- If everyone belonged to the middle class, there would be no drive to work harder. If you do work hard, then you won’t receive any reward for your extra effort. If you don’t work hard, then you’re no worse off than anybody else. Why work, then? There’s no motivation.
176- You made efficiency sound like it meant “leads to less dictators.”
Were these dictators communist, or simply using the ideals to set themselves up for dictatorship? If you were “communist” during the cold war, the USSR would support you. If you were “capitalist”, the US would.
Iceland is in trouble because capitalism has failed them.
Here’s a question: Which nations have made the most scientific and technological achievements over the past decades?
176 – I would pick an economic system based on the good it can do for the greatest number of people, not how “efficient” it is. “Efficiency” has a stingy connotation to it. When corporations are urged to cut costs, lay off workers, it’s under the name of “efficiency.” Obviously, we want a government to be efficient, as in, we want them to use our money well, but its primary focus should be helping the people.
Why will socialism never, ever work? You keep saying something to that effect, but you’re providing no evidence for that claim. We’ve yet to see an example of a brilliant socialist society, but capitalism has also failed many countries. Iceland, as Vendaval just pointed out, is a prime example. Living in a capitalist bubble, we think that capitalism is the greatest thing ever, but in reality, it has a lot of faults, many of which are coming to light now.
177 – There would still be stratification within the middle class, just of a much lower degree. I should have clarified, that no one is significantly better off than anyone else, as opposed to a society like ours where there is an enormous range of incomes. The people at the top have money to burn and the people at the bottom have nothing.
“Why work, then? There’s no motivation?”
I don’t think is true at all. Why do billionaires still continue to work? How about people who could be retired? Life without a purpose or something useful to do would get boring pretty quickly. If people work hard, there are rewards for doing so, just not as exorbitant as the ones capitalism can offer. If people chose not to work or are unable to, that’s not something which is unique to socialism. In our capitalist society, there are people who do the same. Our tax dollars support them; it’s called welfare. I’m honestly not sure how that would work in a socialist society. I would imagine that if the person did not have a legitimate reason (injury etc.) for not working, then they wouldn’t receive the benefits that come with a socialist nation.
164 – Haha, thank you. That’s the nicest thing I’ve heard all day.
129- don’t you think that is a bit extream? I mean seriously Palpatine-Vader? That’s like…insanity!
140- yes so true. I mean some people work crazily to get out of poverty while the people around them comlain. Then they get to the top and it’s like “hand over your money we gotta pay the poor” I’m not saying that helping people out is bad but… well it’s just not fair. And plus (sorry I don’t know the exact amount) Obama is going to add taxes to families with uhh an amount of money. I heard that this is a pretty normal amount for people and that it would also include your possesions meaning that a lot more people than the rich would be taxed. (sorry if I’m worng, I’ve been out of it for a while)
158- Thank you! Now i don’t have to say somthing mean as i knew i would. I compleatly agree with you. Animals have souls. Souls are all life from my point of veiw. So if you are living (this includes plants) you have a soul.
And in responce to just a bunch of comments up there: I think abortion is right. I know that these next few sentences will be really conreverisal but: If a teen is going to have a baby she didn’t plan on it will most defientely ruin her life. She will porbably have to drop out of school and end up on governemnt money. I know that this is really bad but isn’t it better to have a hardworking member of scocioty then a government reliant mothr and her baby. Also you have to remember most babys born to teen mothers end up eather as teen mothers themseves or in jail. And like somone said before, stopping abortion won’t stop it it will just make it harder to get and less sanitary.
And wow. There are alot of pro-McCain people here. We’re learning about the presidentail elction in class and im one of three republicans in my team of 100. yeah… you could say i’m getting the cold stare from some people. My boyfriend is also tryig to get me pro-obama. I’ve got to say he’s giving me some pretty good agruments too. Sometimes i even doubt my choice. Thank gawd i don’t actualy have to vote this year.
140 – Obama is only planning to raise taxes for people who make over a quarter million, unless I am very mistaken. That is a heck of a lot of money. I’m not sure what those people are doing with all that money, that they couldn’t give a little more so some working-class mother can send her daughter to college. The tax increase isn’t huge, either.
Do all babies born to teen mothers really end up like that? There’s something I hadn’t heard before.
Also, I don’t think a baby would necessarily “ruin” a teen mother’s life. There are a lot of successful women out there who had a baby early on.
179- Japan and South Korea, generally.
180) fully socialistic and communistic governments don’t work because they inevitably end up authoritarian governments. There’s no other way to get people to work together like that. It’s a Utopian ideal in every sense… on paper it sounds great but in action it’s not. It cannot be fully implemented in a real world setting. we both used the example of Finland. That works because they’re using aspects of socialism, but still letting people do what they want.
am I answering your question? man I’m so tired…I forgot a lot of this stuff over the summer.
I think all forms of government require a consideration of what it is to be human as well…
184 – So far, a fully communist society hasn’t worked, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t in the future. Personally, I’m more hopeful for a successful socialist country, but I’m not ruling out the possibility of a communist one, either.
“There’s no other way to get people to work together like that.”
I disagree! In a small, unified, highly nationalistic country, I truly think the people could work together enough so that a socialist (or communist) government could succeed. Nationalism is a remarkably strong force. For larger countries, I’m more uncertain, just because of the wide array of viewpoints and nationalities that would be present, but I maintain it is possible.
185) oh yeah I’m not saying it can’t work, I’m saying up until now people have been going about it wrong. you’re right, it’s the motivation behind it that really matters. that’s why it has to happen, not be incited, if that makes sense.
I just found out that the space station’s crew will be able to vote in the election using special electronic ballots. Awesome!
185- Not everyone cares about the community. If I work hard, I think there should be some personal gain. Individuals want freedom. If other members of the community aren’t as successful, then that’s their problem. I earned my rewards through hard work, and I so should be able to keep them. Have you ever read the story of the little red hen?
A Note about Communism.
Large scale communism will never work because it’s just a dream. i don’t think that we’re all discussing the same thing, because in Marx’s definition (The Communist Manifesto, by Marx and Engels), society needs to return to a much less organized state, where people have no pressure from society to do bad things to each other. I am a bit rusty on this, but the steps are similar to what follows.
A. The working class (Proletariat) overthrows the upper class (Bourgeois) in a short, violent, revolution.
B. These workers who have overthrown the past leaders make life great for everyone.
C. A classless, stateless, open society forms.
This is all laid out in the Communist Manifesto, in much more complex terms. Interestingly enough, Marx saw the lowest class, or lumpenproletariat, as a counter revolutionary force.
Monasteries are very close to communist.
I realized that Obama’s initials are BO *snicker*
More importantly, I just found out that Obama is coming to my campus on Thursday
He’s going to be here speaking at 9:30, but the gates open at 7:30, first come first serve. I have a calc test from 6:30 to 7:30, so although I intend to go (for entertainment, I’ve never heard a candidate speak in person), I probably will not get in……anyway, got to go psych lecture.
So I started reading this thread until it started to thoroughly annoy me.
Firstly let’s stop the abortion debate- this issue is pretty much NEVER going to be the decision of the president. Their views on it are not a major plank and should not be made into one, whatever individual feelings may be.
Also for those of you old enough to vote, and for everyone else when you are old enough, pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease do not be a one-issue voter. It’s so… agrivating… especally for the abortion issue, as I said.
But onto more exciting things- Obama’s election night party is not far from me! It would take maybe an hour and a half to get there (well, longer if there’s traffic), and I have a link to a ticket I could print out to get into it and I really want to go. But it’s at 8:30, and I have hockey until around 9:30, and plus travel time I don’t know if I’d be able to get there in time. Plus, although we get election day off from school, there’s school the next day :/
But this could be history and I want to go
Opinions?
Also I am very sad I am not old enough to vote D:
191–you get election day off? No fair.
188 – As I’ve stated before, within a socialistic or capitalistic society, there are still incentives to work harder. Maybe they aren’t as large as the (excessive) ones offered by capitalism, but they exist. And, not everyone has to care about the community. Communism and socialism won’t work in some countries. I’m aware of that. Capitalism also doesn’t seem to be working for some countries.
See Vendaval’s post, too. She’s talking good sense.
186 – Axa, I agree completely.
191 – If you don’t like the abortion debate, you don’t have to read it. I think it’s interesting, which is why I am participating.
Actually, the president could have substantial power over the issue of abortion, if he appoints justices whose views mirror his. Everyone has been saying Roe v. Wade could be overturned if McCain becomes President, and I believe this is true.
Also – I am being an election judge for this upcoming election! I just got my commission yesterday.
173- not for all people and not in all situations. The US intervened in Guatemala and in many other countries during the cold war and made things horrible for these countries. In Guatemala there was a coup in order to prevent communism or socialism and many of the people of the country were killed. There was fighting for decades. The US helped cause that in the name of ‘democracy’ There is a group, the NED that ‘promotes democracy’ by intervening in different countries. This continues to happen now due to paranoia over many things.
By the way, I’m not a one issue voter. And though I know I lean liberal at the beginning of the campaign process I looked at all of the candidates’, even the ones I thought I wouldn’t like, opinions on the issues.
Jadestone- you get election day off? that’s cool.
171- Sorry. Single.
175- Better to be for a few than for none.
182- Like, say, almost every mother born before 1950.
185- Exactly. Key word = small.
189- Monks have to take a vow of poverty, so it makes sense that they’d help each other out. They have to be completely unattached to material things. Outside of monasteries, things are very different. A free market is utterly necessary for the success of a country.
191- Yeah, ’cause saving millions of innocent lives doesn’t really matter. We should focus on either getting rich or making everyone poor, right?
As for abortion, think of it this way. If a mother has an abortion because there is a risk of death for her, there is a 100% chance of someone dying. If she decides to have the baby anyway, the chance of death is less likely. So which would you rather do: guarantee someone death in hopes of saving another or give two people a chance to live? Is one murder justified if it might save a life? Or if it just might make that life a bit easier? Can you hear yourselves? In any other circumstance, you would realise that your logic makes no sense, but in this situation it seems solid. Why?
189) exactly. (I had a more coherent response but I’m all tired out talking about this lol)
190) that’s so cool he’s going to be at your campus! you should try to go, but it’s your choice after all…man I’m so jealous of all you guys getting these rallies and stuff!
191) GO GO GO GO GO
GO FOR ME IF NOTHING ELSE
wow I can not stress that enough you should really try to go.
191- I won’t be a one-issue voter. I’ll be a full blown space advocate.
We get election day off, too.
Most of the voting machines are in the schools.
179 – It’s difficult to understand what you’re responding to or most of your responses if you only use sentence fragments. If you want to continue talking about this, maybe use full sentences or provide quotes from the person you’re responding to.
As for abortion, think of it this way. The idea is not that abortions are awesome and everyone should go about and get them. That is not the platform. I think everyone is in agreement that abortions are a hard decision, a last resort, but sometimes necessary. What we are really against is unnecessary government control over women’s personal lives. If the government can tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body, what is next? That’s a slippery slope we don’t want to go down.
I believe you mentioned that you’re single, so I guess I can’t use the girlfriend example. So, assume you have a sister (maybe you do! that’s even better) or an aunt, or a mother (now, I know you have/had one of these!), and she is pregnant and the government forces her to have an abortion. Would you support that? Do you approve of the way the government is making decisions about her body for her? Is the gov’t really justified in controlling her life like that?
What about abortions in cases of rape? Incest? Situations where the parents both have recessive (and fatal?) conditions? How do you feel about those?
Also, this is from my post above, because I really would like a response to it.
“If we make abortions illegal, that doesn’t mean none will occur. It will just make it more difficult to get one. Instead of safe procedures and clean operations, a lot more unsafe and unhygienic abortions will occur. They will be more dangerous and more expensive. I think that is a much larger problem than the safe, protected abortions we have today.”
197 – We’re past 1950 now. Women can have successful careers, even if they had children at a young age.
Sorry, that first part is a response to post 197 not 179.
Palin was here today, but there wasn’t as much of a backup, and it was before school anyways so hardly anyone went.
Oookay. If we want to talk about abortion and whatever, we can go to the Hot Topics thread. That’s what it’s THERE for. I don’t think this is a thread for opinions on stuff like abortion, it’s a thread for opinions (and arguments) on the candidates themselves and their views, not specific detail on how their views are wrong or right according to yours.
Yeah, I’m probably being pretty hypocritical. Sorry.
Anyways: McCain says we should use nuclear energy. I aggree. But he’s like “okay we’ll put in a couple hundred” and I’m like NO because we need THOUSANDS to power all of America, not just hundreds. And with nuclear energy we won’t NEED to biofuel and solar power and stuff he’s also proposing, because the nuclear energy will be so much more powerful. (See, no specific detail, just a small portion of my views on nuclear energy ONLY stated because of my half-agreement with John McCain’s.)
I wore a button that said (in Sweedish) “Nuclear Power is Safer than Sex!” to school today, but the only word you could figure out was “Sex!”.
Everybody at school wears Obama shirts, and I’m like “what do you like about him” and about the only answer I get is “he’s cool”. I would think by eighth grade you would have your OWN opinions on the presidential election. Not everybody else’s.
Seriously, people are like, kicked out of lunch tables because they don’t support Obama.
This reminds me of Bush/Kerry. If you weren’t for Bush (I wasn’t) you were practically excluded from anything for months. But now, everybody’s like “Bush sucks” and they’re the same people who were rooting for him in my fourth grade class.
189- But the steps go on like this:
A. The working class (Proletariat) overthrows the upper class (Bourgeois) in a short, violent, revolution.
B. These workers who have overthrown the past leaders make life great for everyone.
C. A classless, stateless, open society forms.
D. People grow tired of socialism (it makes life moderately poor for all, there is little freedom, and it is not helpful to the economy, as nobody has anything to gain by working hard) and the society gradually becomes more capitalistic.
E. Eventually, the society is divided by social status, and the upper, middle, and lower classes move further and further apart.
And the cycle repeats. Over and over again. The only ones that can stop it are kind, virtuous rich people who have realized that money doesn’t buy happiness (like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett). They need to donate to privately owned charitable organizations (like the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation) and not to the government (where most of the money ends up in the hands of greedy bureaucrats). How do we get more wealthy people do to this? Complain about the greedy ones in the press, I suppose. Make a public shame about them until they feel compelled to give a substantial donation. But not through taxes or government intervention.
What I don’t get is how much republicans are focusing on Obama’s middle name, Hussein.
Is everyone named Adolf a homicidal maniac with crazed ideals of a “perfect” world? of course not.
I saw a great quote on the Daily Show with Jo(?h?)n Stewart:
If McCain’s middle name was “Hitler”, Democrats would just do some research and find out that it means “soufle” in ‘olde’ French or something of that sort and let him off the hook.
Okay, I kind of butchered that quote, but it was funny when he said it.
sorry, I generalized a bit. insert a “some” in the first sentence, and anywhere else, where needed.
Oh, and ?soufle? is spelled incorrectly.
Sorry.
205-Hitler means ‘soufle’? I didn’t know that….. I’m not sure what the heck to think now….. I’d laugh, but……
I don’t really have anything of depth to contribute to this discussion, but just thought I’d throw out here that Obama won in our school mock election with… around 75% of the vote, I believe.
Though our community, admittedly, is hardcore democratic.
Also, my English teacher accidentally said “Osama” instead of “Obama.”
Someone in the back of the room responds, “He’s running too?!?!”
204- Well, that’s not the theory, that’s what you see as happening today. Just clearing that up. Can you cite an example of this process? I can’t think of a country where this has happened.
Piggy- I looked up more information on Obama’s position on partial birth abortion- he only supports it if it is necessary to save the mother’s life.
Beavo- But where does all that spent nuclear fuel go? Yucca Mountain is only so big. Thermal pollution would also be a problem. Why don’t you want to expand into other areas? (I’m just interested, as I too like nuclear, but I’m not sure if it’s a cure-all.)
McCain’s middle name is Sidney, which comes from St. Denis. (That guy who lost his head in Montmartre? Y’know? Look it up. It’s interesting.)
Soufflé is the past participle conjugation of the French verb souffler, to blow up, so it means “blown up.”
Sorry, this is in response to Rayphno’s post.
Osama instead of Obama was said on national tv, I believe, in the early stages of the primaries. I’m not going to look it up, but I think it was on CNN.
Instead of ?!?!, the much more stylish Interrobang ( ‽ ) could be used! It will make people love you! They will say “What‽ I didn’t know that existed! You’re amazing!”
(/blatant off topic endorsement)
209-Isn’t the waste product of nuclear power water? (If it isn’t sorry, I got that somewhere not to reliable.) And even if it isn’t, we have the technology to recycle it, so no biggie.
Nuclear power plants run on Uranium, but that fuel only lasts for so long. So it has to be stored somewhere. If the drums rust and leak, things get bad. The water used for cooling is also a byproduct, and isn’t harmful by itself, but that’s the thermal pollution. If the water is discharged into a river or lake and it’s a lot warmer, the fish (who like cold water) will have trouble. (Dissolved oxygen rates go down, on a solubility curve.)
Did that make sense? I probably left out something important. Hmmm. There’s also mining and other things, but they’re not the major problems.
Ugh. I can’t even read these posts any more. If you all want to murder children, be my guest. I know you all have plenty of excuses. Goodbye, everyone. I hope God isn’t too hard on you.
213 – LOL, love the dramatic exit.
I hope God forgives you for assuming that He is anti-abortion.
Also – wars in God’s name have killed more children than abortions ever will.
213) things are not so black and white.
I don’t support imposing my particular views on a diverse society. that’s suppression.
no one is pro-abortion. I’d love it if there were never any abortions. in fact I think it’s more important to look at the causes of unwanted pregnancies and solve those.
207:
it doesn’t, that was a hypothetical example.
My my my.
215- That’s very reasonable!
Oh, and Beavo- I don’t know how bad other forms of energy are either. Each one must have its own weaknesses. Nuclear is probably pretty strong, with the years of research it’s got behind it.
i dont understand why people always hav e the samp political party as their parents. a lot of people at my school say their voting mccan in our mock election because their parents are doing that.
all my annoying republican friends were arguing over who had the biggest/most mccain/palin signs in their yards. they also said rich peole need more money because rich people need to pay for stuff too but POOR PROPLE NEED MONEY TOO! i think we should share the money with everyone else in toe countyr and in othe r countrys. there should be a limit of how much money ou can have. baseball players dont need billions and billions of dollars to survive. it’s not like they need more food than the rest of us. we need to spread the peanut butter all over the whole bread. it’s okay if there’s some variation but the people who have no money and it’s not their fault.(if they spent it all on pot that’s a diffrent sory)
sorry about that.. but nobdy else will listen.
218- Sharing the money? Sounds an aweful lot like communism.
125(6)~ THANK YOU. No, that wasn’t flame-y at all, you were incredibly polite and made perfect sense, more rational that I’ve seen in other posts on this thread.
134~ (First point) My mother is a Republican, and she disagrees with McCain. My paternal grandmother is (I believe) also a Republican, and from the last I heard she supports Obama. you can agree more with a candidate from the opposing party than the one for your own.
Saying that the angry Iraqis will come over and blow up America. Well, if we’re really worried about that why did our current president ALLOW it in the first place??? Why is it necessary to go over and save their country by creating a war? Personally, I think that’s a pretty strange way of going about things.
Forcing Americans out of jobs…..well, who’s hiring these illegal immigrants? Americans who want labor dirt cheap. They are willing to hire-illegally-these people because it’s easy and cheap. American ideals? Oh yesssss.
146~ On railing against abortion and then eating meat/eggs/dairy: I agree, obviously. I think that it’s ridiculous that people who say they are all for supporting and encouraging life go to dinner and eat the flesh of other animals. Or, perhaps even more perplexing, happy scarf down eggs-are they not also fetuses?
158~ “Dominion” is a word consistently under strong debate. Personally I believe that with dominion comes responsibility and unselfishness. Taking advantage of someone or -thing simply because you have “dominion” is not really exercising your true dominion. wait, are you a vegetarian or not? I thought you were against it before? I’ll have to check the veggie’s thread….
161~ I still like you as a friend on MB. That doesn’t change if you’re a Republican or not. I honestly don’t care. I hope that I didn’t come across as mean, I was not trying to attack you personally, I’m not trying to attack anyone.
Abortion….I don’t like it. No one does. Like someone said, actually seeing what we can do to make it unnecessary seems a lot more profitable.
As this thread shows, it is a very, I repeat VERY sensitive and personal choice, and I think it should stay that way.
If both the mother and the child would be lost, would it be wrong for an abortion to save at least the mother’s life?
What about anti-contraceptives? Are they bad too? Some people would answer yes, because God told us to “be fruitful and multiply” so having sex but avoiding getting pregnant is a contradiction and disobedience to God’s law. And since males are the “dominant” sex they can pretty much do whatever they want with their wives, since abstinence is a form of birth control. And no, I’m not making this up.
I’ve been following this entire thread, but I don’t have the time nor brainpower to write a whole big long post about my views. To be perfectly honest, at this point, I am really sick of politics.
We had a mock-election at school yesterday. Out of 368 votes, here are the results:
Obama: 360
McCain: 8
221- My school’s mock election results were:
Obama: 530
McCain: 450
Nader/Other: 320
Did anyone else have a mock debate? Mine got pretty crazy.
SNL skit:
McCain: Let me say here tonight that as president, I will be the first to add a cabinet level depratment of plumbing. And you know who I’m going to tab for that post?
Question-Asker/person: Joe the Plumber?
McCain: Bingo. Joe the Plumber.
Obama: What about your mutual friend, ah, Simon, who also lives in a cigar box under your bed?
McCain: Senator Simon cannot serve in the cabinet because Simon is a unicorn. I think you know that.
I don’t like politics. I just like making fun of some politicians.
my high school will be having a mock election on tuesday. I’ll be sure to tell you guys the results, though my high school is in one of the conservative pockets of california and that will likely show in the results.
what are you guys planning on doing for election day? I’m going to try to get everything done tomorrow so I can spend all of Tuesday watching the votes come in. My mom and I are going to be glued to the tv, I just know…I might even call my brother in new york. I’m excited and nervous. I don’t know if I’ll go to school on Wednesday, just because we have career day and I may be wallowing in grief of to happy to sit still.
I’m also very concerned about prop 8 in california…it’s very close. no on 8! are there any propositions in your states that you’re watching?
224–what is prop 8?
(225) It’s a proposed state constitutional amendment, worded as follows:
SECTION 1. Title
This measure shall be known and may be cited as the “California Marriage Protection Act.â€
SECTION 2. Section 7.5 is added to Article I of the California Constitution, to read:
SEC. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.
*sigh* Okay, it’s been over a week and I think I’ve cooled down enough to come back and chat.
224- If it did become illegal in California, couldn’t the couple in question move to a different state? I mean, I don’t have a problem with gays, but maybe they could move someplace where they will be widely accepted rather than someplace like LA where they will be scorned.
Since I’m going to be able to vote next year, I’ve been following what is on my state’s ballot, including the proposals. In my state, we have Proposal 1 and Proposal 2. I am strongly against both. Does anyone else have these two on their ballots as well?
(227) Each state handles ballot propositions differently, and some don’t allow them at all. If another state does have propositions similar to your, the wording probably differs and the numbers are unlikely to be the same. If you’re curious about what other states are proposing, you’d better explain what your propositions say.
227- If you were living somewhere and perfectly happy with where you were living, settled in with a job or school or something would you want to move just because people voted for something? Wouldn’t you rather that they vote that you be recognized in the way that they are recognized?
228- Well, # 1 states that patients should be able to grow marijuana at their homes or buisnesses for medical use, and #2 states that it should be legal to use human embryos for stem cell research.
229- I understand where you’re coming from, but if, on the off-chance that people did outlaw gay marriage where you lived, wouldn’t you be willing to move to be with someone you loved?
226–Thanks, Lady Bunniful.
224–yes, I would have to agree–no on CA’s prop 2. Not that I can vote for that, as I am not from CA, but…….
230- You can legally live together when you are not married but would be really nice to feel that the law is on your side. I like where I live. It is not illegal for me to be there. Why should I move? Why should anyone have to move because of who they love?
*pops into existence on this thread.* 227-But would you like to move across as much as a couple thousand miles just so you can love the person you want to love? I mean, it’s easy to say ‘oh, if someone gay lives in a state that doesn’t like gay marriage the can always move’, but if it was you, would you like to have to choose between your friends and home or your loved one?
(I’m touchy about this subject, by the way. My parents are lesbian.)
227) yo in LA people are cool with gays. actually it really varies from county to county which is why it’s so varied. it would outlaw marriage between a same sex couple, which is now legal in only Massachusetts…and Connecticut? while there are so called civil unions for same sex couples, there are certain rights you don’t have without marriage…often given is the example that if your loved one is in the hospital and you’re not married, legally their parents can bar you from seeing them.
this isn’t about gay people being able to be with each other, it’s about having the same rights as other people. (I hope I don’t sound angry here, it’s just GETTING CRAZY over here…)
So far Diane Feinstein (omg) and even the Governator have said no on 8. it’s discriminatory. i equate it to bans on interracial marriages…the same arguments being used.
also trying to give some crap about how gay marriage will be taught in schools. well ask any teacher and they will tell you marriage is not on the curriculum. and why is it bad to accept and love everyone?
FINALLY. Only one day left.
I don’t think I’ve been this anxious since the Phoenix landing.
haha….what I mean to say was “it varies from county to county which is why it’s so split” or contested or whatever. my original sentence makes no sense.
I’m trying to get my homework out of the way so I can be glued to the tv all tomorrow! I may potentially spam this thread but I might be too busy wringing my hands and what have you so idk
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
MOM WON TICKETS TO THE OBAMA ELECTION RALLY.
AND I CAN GO.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*dancing*
I don’t know how I’m going to do Nano know but I get to gooooooooooo!!
GAPAs, minus PB and J, and 18 and over MBers have you voted? I did. Well, I voted absentee a bit ago but I voted.
(239) oxlin: I voted by absentee ballot, too. My state, Virginia, encouraged voters to do that this year to head off an expected shortage of poll workers and voting machines.
239–Yup! I voted absentee.
I am soooo nervous about the election.
The words “Can everything really change?” keep running through my head, along with an image of myself floating weightless.
I CAN’T VOTE! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!!!!!!!
seriously, this has been an issue for me. i’ve been stealing my parents’ stickers and pretending i voted since the bush/gore election. (and telling them who they should vote for as well :P)
obamaaaa…i would vote for you if i couuuuuld
I’m pretty keyed up about the election. The wait before the answer is excruciating. I can’t wait to find out who will win. AAHHHHH!!! *runs around the room in agitation*
239 – I also voted. I actually voted for a minor party candidate for president, because I didn’t like McCain or Obama. Otherwise, I voted Democrat, if the candidates actually had a party affiliation.
My state has a strange method of amending its constitution, that being that all amendments have to pass by referendum. So my ballot had a bunch of yes/no questions on it that I had to vote on too. The only one I really cared about was the one that would, if it passed, allow the state to build slot machines in a few places to get all the gambling money that people are spending elsewhere to be spent in-state instead. The money is supposed to fund the school system, but less than half of it actually goes to schools. I voted against it, because I have seen what happens during the Preakness Stakes in the neighborhood near the racetrack, (which is not my neighborhood, thank God) and I know that wherever they put in slot machines, it’s going to bee like that all the time, not just for one weekend. [/rant]
we had a little mock election at school
i went with my mom and dad to vote and the people gave me an i voted sticker.
yay obama!
220-Why thank you! And I agree with your post, as well. I don’t understand the argument of people like Agrrrfishi:
“That dead baby that a mother murdered could have been a firefighter or a future president. It could have been a police officer who saved your from being shot point-blank on the side of the road. That baby could have been your husband or wife, your brother or your sister. It could have been your savior. And you would throw all of that away just because you didn’t deem it to be a life? That is why I could never vote for someone like Barack Obama, who can’t tell a life from a life.”
First off, I think it’s a little narrow-minded to only consider that one issue, disregarding all of the other issues that affect the millions of Americans who have already been born. I cannot see voting for somebody who cares more about bringing more people into the world than about improving the lives of those who are already here. I don’t know, maybe it’s just me, but I kind of think humans who are already here are more important than a clump of cells.
Second, with this kind of argument, one could go on to make pregnancy mandatory. Why don’t we just keep popping out babies, one right after the other? One of them might be a firefighter or a president, I don’t know, maybe two! We can’t let any of those little eggs go unused now, can we? (Please do sense the sarcasm, I know it can sometimes be hard to tell, so I apologize.)
Of course, there’s only so much room on Earth, so if we’re to go on feeling all self-important and as if we are the “most intelligent beings on Earth” then I strongly feel we ought to make sure we avoid overpopulation, a threat we are well aware of and know the terrible consequences of.
Eww, I don’t know if that sentence made any sense or not!
So, that’s just my opinion. Of course we ought to work on preventing these unwanted pregnancies, don’t get me wrong. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to save a mother when the “child” is still a minute clump of cells. Again, under dire circumstances. I’d say it would be better to let the mother try again. Or just decide not to have any/any more kids.
Did that make any sense? I’m trying to be friendly about it.
We interrupt this broadcast to bring you this message:
THE FIRST POLLS CLOSE IN 30 MINUTES
Red-tailed HAWK
Our mock poll’s results:
Obama: 200-something.
McCain: 83
Nader: I have no idea.
My results Obama-300+
McCain-Who cares, he’s going 2 lose!!!!
I’m going insane. Seriously. I’m going insane.
RESULTS SO FAR: (popular vote)
NH: Obama=67%, McCain=33%
ME: Obama=67% McCain=33%
KY: Obama=36% McCain=62% (ouch)
IN: Obama=55% McCain=43%
Which means that Obama has 48% of the popular vote and Mccain has 51%. So far. (updates as soon as they come).
Want to know how my day went? I skipped school, got up at six for my piano lesson, and then held Obama signs at the voting location for 3 hours straight. Then I took a half an hour break for lunch; I then proceeded to make last-minute campaign calls at a local democrat volunteer type place thingy. I then WENT BACK and held signs. *twitch* I’ve been surviving off of coffee and diet Pepsi allllllllll day. Now I have to watch my brother but I’m calling my mom with updates as they come onto my computer screen/the news. I feel like a hyped-up child on Christmas eve. And if you think that’s bad, my dad went out at noon yesterday, came back at 2 in the morning, got 2 hours of sleep, and then went BACK OUT to volunteer. And my mom’s been doing as much as I have, if not less, because she had to work at eleven.
*goes nuts*
I didn’t vote, but I pressed all of the fancy touch-screen buttons for my mom. It was so exciting!
UPDATE:
Indiana now has McCain only 1% behind.
251) YES NEW HAMPSHIRE. also I want to personally thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing all that volunteering. and the rest of your family too! you’re amazing!
like you just said cnn is reporting Indiana very close…ugh I’m so nervous. they’ve projected kentucky for mccain and vermont for obama.
I’ll be running from the tv to the computer all night…ughhhhh
Thank gosh for laptops.
OBAMA LEADS IN THE CAROLINAS AND FLORIDA!!!!!!!!!!!
Obama: 81 electoral votes.
McCain: 34 electoral votes.
Read ’em and hope.
257-Exactly!
251-Thank you so much for volunteering!!!
Obama: 102!!!
McCain: 34
Come on! Florida for Obama!!!
Obama: 174
McCain: 49
That, of course, is without the middle of the country, but it could come true! I’m veryveryvery nervous.
Florida, please!
GO MCCAIN!
If a walrus is a walrus, then Obama is a llama.
Sorry to double post but……
I don’t like Obama because he’s told a lot of outrageous lies, he keeps changing his views, and his idea for “taking from the rich and giving for the poor” is not going to work. Seriously. Who is going to be deciding whether the bill is passed? Other politicians, who are rich. Are they gong to vote to give away their money? No! They will end up taking money from the middle class, which isn’t what the American people want, I should think.
Plus, Obama really is a llama.
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! 175 to 46!!!!!! *squee* C’mon, Florida! And Ohio! And Indiana!!! Plus, if Obama wins California (which he probably will) he’ll be at 230! Plus any others that he wins along the way!!!!! I’m considering going back down to the HQ; apparently all the volunteers are calling people on the West coast.
Apparently it was his proudest hour.
254- Thanks so much. My dad actually convinced an undecided-but-probably-McCain person to Gobama.
Okay. There’s too many states with the polls changing rapidly, so I won’t keep up with the PV percentage. But I am very excited and praying about Florida and Ohio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
260- ??? Wtf?
175-46!!!
HE WON OHIO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! w00t! w00t! w00t!
Obama’s going to lose Indiana(my state)!
262–if I were undecided who to vote for, a phone call would certainly convince me–to vote for the OTHER party. Political phone calls piss me off–if they are prerecorded, they end in me cussing them out, if they are real people, I usually refrain from the cussing, but tell them in my post irritated, b****y voice that I’m not interested, and slam the phone down. God, those people piss me off. Them, and telemarketers are the bane of my existence.
ANyway, go McCain! Vote Nobama! Down iwth the Obamonster! (my sister gave him that nickname, I think it’s funny) *dodges sticks and stones and runs for life*
And nobody has lost Ohio and won for a long time!
Wait-if he wins Ohio, Calif. and Flor. (which he will) he’s going to win. That takes all the fun out of it.
OHIOOOOOOOO OHIOOOOOOOO @^@&#% YEAH OHIOOOO
\COME ONE FLORIDA YOU CAN DO IT
Stupid Indiana Voters. Never voted for a Dem. since the 60’s.
I bet Texas is even worse.
OHIO VOTES FOR OBAMA!!! LET’S GO, FLORIDA! GO OBAMA!!!
266) High five Luna! Come one McCain!
Go for Florida! That speech in Cocoa Beach had to count for something!
266- *throws sticks* Amazing how many things you can make ‘Obama’ out of. And, really, they’re not trying to convince someone to vote for Obama; they just remind people to vote, and say that they encourage Obama. My script from this afternoon;
Hi, is this *blank*? Good *morning/afternoon*, my name is *blank* and I’m calling from *blank* just as a reminder to people in the area to get out and vote this fine Tuesday. Do you plan to or have you already voted? (And so on…) And they don’t sound bitchy on purpose. After the 25th call you’ve made, you start to sound like a Barbie robot type thing.
EEEEK!!! He’s climbing in Florida!!!!!!!!!!
268- I dunno, they just got to the midwestern (and typically republican) states. That’ll bump McCain up.
262- Well, I was ignoring your first post, but it seems like you want to talk. Here it begins:
a lot of outrageous lies
What? Name some. He’s not like McCain, claiming that Ayers has been secretly plotting with Obama, or that ACORN is practically run by him.
he keeps changing his views
Examples, please. I suppose McCain staying resolutely in favor of the war in Iraq is good? Obama has opposed it from the beginning.
and his idea for “taking from the rich and giving for the poor†is not going to work.
Why not? I’ll get to more of that in the next paragraph, but you really shouldn’t use quotation marks if it isn’t a direct quote, which I doubt it is.
Who is going to be deciding whether the bill is passed?
Ah, the other Democrats, who will probably control the Senate, and possibly the House too. Obama’s got a really detailed plan (Which can be found easily on his website, if you’re interested) for restarting our economy, including putting more taxes on large corporations, unlike McCain, and relieving taxes on people in the middle class, and adding more jobs for rebuilding our infrastructure, and improving green energy.
Plus, Obama really is a llama.
Now you’re name-calling, which just makes you look immature.
(sorry double post) Okay, if Obama wins CA (most likely), WA (most likely) and HA (99.9% poss) he has 272 EC votes!!!!!!!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
YES WE DID!
274-no, the callers don’t sound bitchy, but I sound bitchy (deliberately) when I tell them that I am not interested in their call. It really doesn’t matter if they’re trying to convince me of who to vote for, or if they’re just saying “go vote”. They’re just absolutely annoying.
1. they always call at the most inconvenient times (when you are making dinner, eating dinner, eating lunch, or enjoying some alone time vegging out in front of the tv)
2. they don’t get the hint whenyou say, sorry, i’m busy, go away, you ahve almost no choice but to hang up.
3. You get so damn many, that regardless of whether they’re from the same organisation or not, you just want to scream
4. they call you even though you are on the do-not-call list–why should the bloody political phone calls be exempt? they are equivalent to telemarketers in my humble opinion.
5. i am just a very grumpy person when people call me. I do not like getting phone calls, i do not like talking on the phone (esp. to people I do not know).
6. Currently, the only phone calls I like are ones form mom/dad/sis (lonely college kid, I am)
7. I am just so very, very glad none of them have gotten ahold of my cell number–so far nobody ahs called me i haven’t given the number out to, and I can count those people on my fingers (give or take half a dozen). but back home……grrrrrrr
YES WE DID!
We may even be filibuster-proof!!!
if he wins cal (Yes) and Florida (Maybe) and McCain takes the rest, Obama still wins.
I kind of support McCain, but the polls on the news indicate that Obama’s probably going to win. Today at school, at least five people asked me who I supported, my views on propositions, my political party, etc. At one point, I decided that if one more person asked me who I supported, I would say, “Kokopelli,or course!”. But nobody else asked me.
Typo – it was supposed to be that I would say, “Kokopelli, of course!”.
GUYS IT’S OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CA he’ll win
VA, NC, IN+CO, or FL and he wins!
Might not be filibuster proof…we’ll see.
Obama won.
Idea–let’s have all the conservative people of the world join together, build a rocket, and fly off to a distant planet so that the earth isn’t torn in half by conflicting political views. Conservatives can be conservative, liberals can be liberal, and neither of us are effected by each others’ decisions.
OBAMA!!! GO OBAMA!!!
275-Precisely!
276-I hope you’re right! I have been filling out the map, and from what I can tell, I think we are right!!!
285-Pretty much
If One side left, the other would split. It just would return to the status quo.
I think i’m going to cry once everything sets in. this is so amazing. I can hardly wrap my mind around it. we’ve come so far. The future is bright!
285) nah nah dude! we can all come to understand each other don’t you think? i…my hope is just that we can all come to see each other as humans and Americans and not as members of a political party.
I love everyone right now! I bet sarkozy is having a fit lol he was so obv in love with obama when he visited for five minutes
288) See each other as individuals?! that’s against human nature. It’s that instint to ggroup and the fact that most human minds think the same that makes government work. There should be a Muse article about group/collective psychology.
OMG! It’s real! go to almost any wesite and ull see that Obama won VA!
Yeah, Obama won. My family has been watching the coverage for a past hour (specifically, the Comedy Central coverage xD) and they’re calling it for Obama by a wide majority now.
Actually, my family called it a while ago. Even before the West coast polls closed, he was only a little below, and California, Oregon, and Washington (woot) were almost definitely going to put him over.
it’s over *sniff*
OBAMA 2012!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*cries* I don’t even know why I’m crying. But I am. Is this normal?
Now Obama’s going to get shot or something and we’re going to have a police state, run by the queen of England! We’re a colony again!
Yeah, we’ve totally come so far. [/sarcasm]
My school’s going to have a riot. I’m probably going to be trashed like hell tomarrow.
Anyways. I just listened to Obama’s rally in VA yesterday, and I was really scared. You know what it reminded me of? The Nuerenburg Rallies. No joke. I was like
oh snap we have a new Hitler. 
293) yes! it is!
Obama won. Probably at school tomorrow, all the Obama supporters are going to be saying, “WE TOLD YOU SO! NA NA NA NA NA!”. Or something along those lines.
294 – A new Hitler? I hope not…
294–I take it you’re not for Obama? omg, i can’t believe mccain conceded obama’s victory before the votes on the west coast were even counted. sure, the polls closed and the tvs/webs/everythign were saying they went to obama, but they weren’t actually counted when mccain conceded. My sister just ranted to me for nearly an hour about how wrong and undemocratic it is, becuase nobody’s vote on the west coast counted–especially AK. Ak’s polls weren’t even close when the ******* conceded. wtf?
Yeah, joy oh joy. and as she pointed out, the presidency will be demi, the senate and house demi, and thus there will b eno checks and balances, leaving the potential of a *&&%^ing dictatorship…..We may soon have our own darling dictator Hussein (pun fully intended, and yes, whoever mentioned it, if McCain’s middle name was Hitler, the dem’s would be making just a big a deal out of it as the repub’s supposedly ahve about Obamonster’s middle name being Hussein.)
*flees thread in fear of life*
(294, 297) Calm down, please. The checks and balances in the American system of government don’t depend on political parties, but on the separation of powers among different branches of government. Congress and the Presidency have changed hands many times in American history in all different combinations without giving rise to a dictatorship. Finally, a politician with whom you disagree can have enthusiastic supporters without being anything like Hitler. All of this might seem new and frightening to some of you, but it’s perfectly normal and nothing to fret about. Watch and learn, Grasshoppers (and read history books). These are interesting times — and that’s not a curse.
</gapa_sermonette>
Yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay *Does happy dance*
297–Well, most of the western states are practically counted before they vote–take CA, for instance, it’s a foregone conclusion. But I thought McCain’s speech was very gracious–he truly is a good man.
299 – I thought Obama’s speech was really good, too – it made me really proud to be an American, even during these hard times. It reminded us of just how much we’ve accomplished, but he also talked about all the things we still need to do. As my mom pointed out, it wasn’t just a speech, it was an oratory.
Just because people follow Obama doesn’t mean he’s going to be like Hitler at all. I think one of the greatest skills a person, especially a president, can have is that people are inspired to follow. JFK, FDR, MLK – all of these people are so famous that they can be called by their first initials because people were inspired to follow them to a better world.
The difference between these great men and Hitler isn’t that people followed one and not the other. They were both given the same opportunity, but America’s great men used that power to spread liberty and freedom, while Hitler abused it for his own purposes. That’s the difference.
I basically ignored the entire election. All right, not quite. I deliberately didn’t listen to it. I did wonder, but I didn’t listen. I officially despise all government. On principle, mainly, but also because I despise the way elections are set up.
this is as good a place for this as any……i just got an email from my aunt in FL (the one me and my sis are staying with over Thanksgiving), and I love her’n’my uncle’n’cousin, don’t get me wrong, but after reading the las bit…..I just wanna cry and I feel nauseous:
….not that we’re happy with the turnout as we were McCain supporters, but one good thing did come of it. Florida voted to uphold the sanctity of the family as defined by the state constitution: One man and one woman is a marriage. NOTHING ELSE!!!!!!!!! I’ll take that victory!
I just don’t get people. If it weren’t for the fact that I would get myself in tons of trouble, I would so write back some reply to that statement. It just pisses me off that people are so….unaccepting. I do have to write her back though, concerning one of her questions (unrelated to this topic), but this has me really pissed, and I am afraid that I will be unable not to say something…..I really don’t feel good now.
Maybe I’ll just hibernate until this all blows over. The government can’t take all my money if I’m hibernating!!! *laughs* *is going insane, but doesn’t care* *laughs more*
301- Yes! Down with government! Revolution!
300- JFK. FDR. MLK. BHO, any one?
YAYYAYYAYYAYYAYYAYYAY!!!!!!!!!! OBAMA WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*does happy dance*
OBAMA WON! w00t!
304 MLK was not president
297- It didn’t matter, everyone knew that Obama would win CA.
297-Nope, I’m not an Obama supporter. But I’m not a McCain supporter either. I support Hilary Clinton.
CLINTON IN 2012!
298-I see what you mean, but I’m more worried about the people who control Obama’s agenda. Their previous agenda was really scary, and America’s going through crap right now, so I’m worried about what else they can put us through.
299- California is in so much debt that of course we’re democrats! Well, except for Orange County; we’re republican. And I suppose I must come out and say this- I was for McCain.
308–yes, but that’s not the point–it’s the principle of the thing, that McCain didn’t wait for PROOF of the west coasts majority support for Obama, and thus in reality, nobody’s vote on the west coast counted, whether they were voting for McCain or for Obama, as he conceded defeat before the west coast + Alaska had been officially counted, hell, before AK’s polls even CLOSED.
309–gotcha
(311) Senator McCain was in a difficult position. Last time I checked, both North Carolina and Missouri were still counting their provisional ballots and other votes and had not declared winners. If a losing candidate waited until every state finished counting, people could get very impatient.
Down with Obama! *dodges pies and sharp objects*
*hugs piggy, ibcf, zinc, kiwimuncher, beavo, and anybody else who is anti obama!*
*Drops pies on the anti-obama people.*
311-Of course their vote counted! That speech was not official. Besides, noones vote actually counted because the delegates decide on Dec. 4. They don’t have to vote for the person their state voted for. And about alaska…individual Alaskan voters have the least power in the nation in deciding the president bacause of some wierd math.
Welcome to the future.
*distributes pies and hugs to everyone, regardless of political creed, NaNo word count, or favorite flavor of ice cream.*
Just a friendly reminder that we’re all Musers here.
As we’re no longer counting down to the election, that seems like a good note on which to move the discussion to the Election Aftermath thread.