I just read today that Vegetarians use 160 fewer gallons of oil per year than carnivores, and vegans use 250 fewer gallons of oil per year than carnivores.
My friend tried to go vegan for a week to see if she could make it. She lasted two days, but could’ve gone longer. I was surprised when I realized, after discussing the foods she’d eaten, that I had eaten vegetarian that day, and I’ve come to see that I still do, most days. But I don’t see anything wrong with eating meat.
So, I think that while I could go vegetarian, I’d rather stay a compassionate omnivore.
.4 my exact philosophy is “compassionate omnivore”! I don’t like meat much but I don’t mind a spot of chicken here and there…
Things I will not eat, however, include veal, lamb, and pork. The first two because that’s particularly awful to consider and the last because I’ve made a habit of it since I was seven or eight.
I admire vegetarians and especially vegans for their dedication. I have a friend who has been a vegetarian for a while, and she tells me she can even taste the chicken stock in soups. There are a lot of foods and snacks that incorporate animal products in ways you wouldn’t expect, and she always has to check for that.
As I think I said on the previous thread, vegetarians and vegans are actually eating the smart way, since it’s more efficient to eat what the animal eats rather than to eat the animal itself. That way you don’t lose the 10%( I think it’s that much) of energy with trophic levels and so on.
7~ Tasting meat flavors in soup stock/etc. It’s true, you can really taste the meat when you’re not used to it, another thing is that eggs become a flavor in themselves, to me they’re a distinct flavor in cakes, cookies, and other foods. Most people don’t think of them as having a specific taste, but they do!
7. Axa
What’s wrong with eating lamb? How is it different from eating chicken?
I’m reading The Omnivore’s Dilemma. I got it ages ago because we were talking about here and I started it but I forgot about it until just now. It’s so interesting!
The definition of “organic” is pretty much completely arbitrary.
5- Mhm. I, too, was a victim of this, as you can see by the fact that I only noticed that the year was off.
8- That they do. The eggs, anyway. I’ve not accidentally eaten any meat products, at least to my knowledge. But after being an uberstrict vegan for a few days shy of a year, the egg taste became apparent.
Milk, too. I still can’t stand drinking egg nog, milk, or even hot chocolate with just a hint of creamer. It’s so weird. My egg/dairy intake is limited to the ingredients in choklit, pumpkin pie, mashed potatoes, buttered vegetables, Easy Mac, pizza, and Parmesan cheese. And the occasional cupcake. I still hate cheese on bean tacos, too. I peel off as much as I can when the dining hall offers them.
Sometimes I think that I’m just very picky and neurotic. For instance, I eat nearly everything in even numbers. Exceptions being subs, which require an even number of bites, and large things like plates of angel hair or number nine pasta. Also even number of scoops.
On meat stocks in soups… the only soup I ever have is alphabet soup, which I make myself with noodles and vegetable stock. The proper sort. Some are labeled “vegetable stock” but, upon further inspection, are revealed to have chicken stock as the main ingredient. Swanson’s good, though.
Fritos are vegan. Which is awesome. Lived on those for a while. Also, many of the crappy Wal-Mart brand cookies are. I think I’ve developed a taste for the oatmeal ones. And now I’m rambling. Oh! Oreos. They’re good, too. They’re basically sugar and other chemicals that are bad for you.
.9 yeah I knew someone would ask that…it’s really not literally different. I would do well not to eat any meat if I’m going to pick and choose which ones are more offensive to my emotions/morals for lack of a better word, but the idea of eating baby sheep just makes me sick. I realize how irrational saying that and continuing my poultry habit is, but it’s a mental block or something I guess.
And what exactly is vegemite? What does it taste like? I wonder if stores around here sell it, somehow I doubt it.
I have accidentaly eaten meat since I became a vegitarian. I insisted that something was bacon and my mom insisted it was potatoe, so I ate it. And figured out it was bacon. In my defense it was a dark restraunt. And I had a really sore stomach for the rest of the evening. I was reminded the other day of why I’m vegetarian. My family tradition for Christmas day supper is to have cornish hens. Two years ago I had to stop eating them. I could see their spines and it made me realize I was eating something that had lived and been killed. It looked like death. So eventually I became vegetarian.
7-You’re partially right about the trophic levels. However, it’s actually even scarier than that. After every step in the food chain, only 10% of the energy is transferred to the next step. You don’t lose 10%, you only salvage 10% of the original energy. You lose 90% of the energy at each step. This is why there are so many more herbivores than carnivores.
And, this is a problem with humans eating meat. With our tremendous population growth, there could very well end up being more carnivores than herbivores we are willing to eat. There are already problems with food shortages. This is what the article I mentioned was talking about, how we are not only dramatically increasing our pollution of the planet (livestock being responsible for a shocking 18% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions, plus don’t forget manure and all of those excess “nutrients” that cause the tremendous algae growth in ponds and lakes, which in turn decimate wildlife populations by starving the water of its oxygen) but also are starving people in developing countries.
Just think about it: We could suddenly have ten times the amount of food we now have just by becoming vegetarians. Ten times. We could wipe out world hunger tomorrow.
When did ever one start there Diet, If I can call it that?
I don’t eat Red meat, and I haven’t from when I was 5 on. It was my kindergarten new years resolution. I’m now in eighth grade.
15-I’ve been a vegetarian since I was born (my parents are, too). I don’t think people should be discouraged from trying being vegetarian because they weren’t one from the beginning. I think it actually shows quite a bit of willpower for a person to decide to be a vegetarian on their own.
I wish I could be a vegetarian, as thinking about eating animals makes me feel slightly naseous, but meat is just too good. I do keep kosher, though, which makes me feel better about how the animals were killed, etc. I just really like beef, etc. *salivates* I’m such a carnivore… I won’t wear fur or snakeskin or leather or anything though.
My friend is a vegetarian and I have NO IDEA how she does it.
13- I like your argument, those are some really great points. I’m trying to write a speech that makes an argumen for organic foods, and I felt that here would be a great place to get some help. Can I post what I have so far here?
I am a pescetarian (vegetarian except for fish), and have been for almost a year now. However, I eat foods with gelatin in them and wear leather.
About leather… I do feel guilty, and try to avoid it whenever possible, but it is really difficult to avoid it completely. For example, most jeans have a small patch of leather on the waistband in the back. And I have yet to find a good quality pair of dress shoes that isn’t made of leather. I would never wear fur or snakeskin, though.
My mother insists that a) it is impossible to get enough protein and iron while being vegetarian and b) tofu causes cancer. *sigh*
I feel bad for eating eggs now, because Clarissa’s food is all vegan and she’s always talking about it. But she won’t let me stop drinking milk, she says I’ll kill myself going vegan.
I’m a vegetarian…but I would die if i didn’t have dairy. None of my family is vegetarian; I turned vegetarian when I was 3 and I read Charlotte’s Web. I was so moved! *sobs* Well, I’m still vegetarian, but the driving force for me isn’t Charlotte’s Web.
If your parents are a little stuborn, the book ‘I’m a Vegetarian’ offers numerous valid arguments for the fact that Vegetarianism/Veganism is quite safe.
13- Oh, man! Overpopulation… let us all become voluntary human extinctionists! Who are also vegetarians.
18/22- What Kagy said. I usually forget that people eat meat and such until I see them eating it, at which point I just find it weird and repulsive.
26- Dude, it’s your choice. Also, soymilk. Choklit.
Silly people thinking vegetarians/vegans are all going to die of vegetarianism/veganism. Even misinformed ones are okay. My cousin was a “vegan” for ages, but in the anorexic way. She got stomach ulcers and whatnot. Now she’s an omnivore again. But that lead to most of my family getting the impression that vegans don’t eat anything evar, oh em gee. Alas.
I think a lot lamb isn’t really that young when it’s killed… it’s just called lamb, because otherwise it’s mutton. But I get where your coming from.
Vegemite is concentrated yeast extract. It’s a dark brown paste. It tastes extremely salty and sort of tangy. You eat it on toast or crackers. Most people think it’s gross. I guess it’s sort of an acquired taste.
13. Red-tailed HAWK
Well, really I agree with you about the whole ‘it would solve a lot of problems if we ate less meat’ but just for the sake of argument, I want to point out:
1. By and large, the problem with world hunger isn’t lack of food; it’s lack of means to get food where it’s needed. I mean, probably have enough food to solve world hunger as it is; it’s just that it doesn’t grow everywhere, an it’s hard to distribute it properly.
2. Eating plants may save energy in terms of trophic levels but you’ve got to keep in mind the loss of nutrients in protein and necessary fat and what not. For us healthy people living in the First World it’s not such a big deal because we can choose substitutes but soy and iron supplements aren’t generally available in the poorer parts of the world. (Well soy in some places but that’s not the point).
Really, I totally agree that it’s an enormous waste to produce as much meat for food as we do; it would definitely benefit humans and the environment to be more herbivorish. But we are omnivores (biologically, I mean) and I don’t think it would solve all our problems if tomorrow everyone just stopped eating meat.
32- I can understand that. Chicken in Chinese restaurants is one of the foods I miss. And I don’t think I could give up shrimp tempura or sushi (that’s mostly why I’m pescetarian).
“Vegetarians, and their Hezbollah-like splinter faction, the vegans, are a persistent irritant to any chef worth a damn. To me, life without veal stock, pork fat, sausage, organ meat, demi-glace, or even stinky cheese is a life not worth living. Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for, the pure enjoyment of food. The body, these waterheads imagine, is a temple that should not be polluted by animal protein. It’s healthier, they insist, though every vegetarian waiter I’ve worked with is brought down by any rumor of a cold. Oh, I’ll accommodate them, I’ll rummage around for something to feed them, for a ‘vegetarian plate’, if called on to do so. Fourteen dollars for a few slices of grilled eggplant and zucchini suits my food cost fine.” From Kitchen Confidential, p. 70.
I am not a vegetarians, but I respect them, and believe the proper way to coexist with them is not to diss them.
I am, however, against factory farming because it is not only cruel to animals, but bad for the environment and local economies. Our family gets all our meat from a local farmer, as well as vegetables from the local CSA in the summer, spring, and fall. They are a lot tastier than the industrial stuff, and a lot healthier for you too.
34~ You said that before. If you’re going to bash vegetarians and vegans be creative and speak your own ideas. If you can’t do that at least don’t just repeat some quote that you think is properly offensive, find new ones if you must. I for one was sick of that quote the first time you posted it, and my feelings have not changed; I still think it’s obnoxious and that any “self respecting chief worth a damn” would be glad to have the challenge (even though it’s not that hard) to make an interesting, tasteful and wholesome dish without using more “traditional” ingredients.
36 – I completely agree. Discriminating against eating habits is like discriminating against any other thing, like religion or sexual orientation, only more picky.
.37 – Haha, I think you’re totally overreacting. Cliff Eagle has a right to his own opinion and to express it however he likes (even in the form of quotes!). I, for one, have never seen this quote before, and I do read the V&V threads pretty frequently, so it’s not like he’s posted it everywhere as his mantra or something. It is an interesting point of view, even if I don’t agree with it. Militant carnivores are almost as amusing as militant vegetarians. Cliff is only trying to provoke the vegetarians and he is obviously succeeding!
34-Wow, what a closed minded frick-hole. I certainly hope that’s not how you see us. “I’ll accomadate them.” *scoff* Like we’re commiting a terrible guilty pleasure that he’s so generously ignoring by letting us what, not eat meat?
To me, that paragraph was summarized by him saying, “Who do you think you are, vegetarians? Choosing your own lifestyle and asking people to accept you.”
What about people who are vegetarian for their religion? Does that make who they worship the “bane of humanity” or whatever too?
* Ding-Ding-Ding* TROLL! Ring the Troll Warning Bell!
…or maybe just a conversation starter. Let’s see.
Before we over-react (too late) let’s look at Cliff’s post. It’s a quote from a book (Kitchen Confidential) by Anthony Bourdain, a “rouge chef”, if you will, who was thrown off the cooking channel due to a constant use of vulgar language. I personally think that his work is fantastic, but it’s easy to see how flammable he is, being less than sensitive, and usually unrestrained. Here’s a step by step analysis of his thoughts.
“Vegetarians, and their Hezbollah-like splinter faction, the vegans, are a persistent irritant to any chef worth a damn. So, (Bourdain feels) vegetarians are irritant to “professional” chefs, but not anything more
To me, life without veal stock, pork fat, sausage, organ meat, demi-glace, or even stinky cheese is a life not worth living. He could not live with out meat. Simple.
Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for, the pure enjoyment of food. Bourdain likes his food, no matter where it comes from.
The body, these waterheads imagine, is a temple that should not be polluted by animal protein. It’s healthier, they insist, though every vegetarian waiter I’ve worked with is brought down by any rumor of a cold. Ok, he gets insulting. His personal experience tells him there’s nothing wrong with eating meat.
Oh, I’ll accommodate them, I’ll rummage around for something to feed them, for a ‘vegetarian plate’, if called on to do so. Fourteen dollars for a few slices of grilled eggplant and zucchini suits my food cost fine.â€
He even likes them! If only to sell expensive dishes to, but even so, he’s perfectly fine coexisting with them.
I see nothing wrong with using quotations; they’re often concise, professional, and well written. Understanding where this comes from is important. He got kicked off the cooking channel. For cursing. He’s not discriminating though, he’s angry that they don’t see his perspective, which is a simple, pure, love of food, in all its forms. I’m guessing that if anything, he’s angry at vegetarians for trying to make him and others feel sorry for eating meat (which I personally see no problem with, as long as it is ethically obtained.) He’s a dodgy figure, being a spokesman for immigrant’s rights and saying one of the worst things he had ever eaten was Chicken McNugget, while contrastingly revealed that he’s done everything from LSD to heroin.
P.S. Oops, it looks like he wasn’t booted from the food network, he left because he wanted more creative control. Sorry, but it really could’ve happened.
Well, apparently my post got snipped. Not surprising- it was heavily laced with an assortment of four letter words.
37, 40, et al.
Its a shame that society has to be ridden with Peta-fanatic, crazy hippie vegetable nazis who constantly scream “inhuman” and “unhealthy”. This may be surprising, but the human body was BUILT to eat meat. There’s nothing unhealthy about eating meat- we’ve been doing it for millenia now. Secondly, eating meat is a good thing, both for the human body, but furthermore, the development of who we are as homo sapiens sapiens. Think about it. The cornerstones of invention, language, culture and civilization were all started by our ancestors, who were discussing them while they were waiting for their meat to cook over the fire. . That meat had to be hunted and killed, as unfair to the animal as it is. Humans are omnivores. That means they eat both plants and animals. Get it into your heads that HUMANS LIKE MEAT. I see it as arrogant that someone wouldn’t eat meat- you are practically turning down a dinner invitation at houses in, say, about 3/4 of the world. It is human that we will gather around meat! I am sick and tired of vegeterrorists screaming and protesting meat packing plants and furriers and basically declaring anything that even slightly harms an animal as “inhumane”. Guess what? Animals will be harmed- and it is only natural. Homo Sapiens Sapiens are consumers- we eat things that eat other beings! Furthermore, the use of the term inhumane is irrelevant when there are people who don’t have anything to eat, period, whether they are carnivores and omnivores. Dammit, there are opressive dictatorships that must be toppled! People are dying of aids and cancer, and we don’t have a cure! It seems to me that there are issues that are far more “inhumane” than the meat industry! Those vegetarian freaks should spend more time helping out people who are dying of aids, or starving people, or people in Kosovo, Chechnya, or Darfur that are going through a freaking genocide right now, rather than trying to take down meat. Bottom line? Humans like meat, and instead of wasting your time boycotting what most of the world has accepted since the beginning of time, why not help somebody who really needs it?
.40/37/34 – Boudain’s condescension is actually remarkably similar to that of a lot of vegetarians, who consider themselves to be morally superior to the carnivorous crowd. That’s what bugs me about many most vegetarians: they think their dietary plan is the ‘right’ way to do it, when in reality, it’s just another way to survive.
Well, obviously, since your resume is much better than tony bourdains, I’ll take your word for it that you know SO much more about food than he does. Tell me, Vendaval, which high-end restaurant, have you been the chef at?
I agree with this post, for the most part! There are a lot more important problems than some mistreated cows. Once the worlds has adequate food and water supplies and reliable healthcare and education systems, then I think it would be sensible to start looking at animal wellfare etc. But to place animal rights over human rights, seems like some very mixed up priorities.
Something you didn’t address is the health aspect of eating meat. I’m not allowed to link to outside sources, so I can’t provide a lot of evidence here, but most meat these days is pumped full of growth hormones, chemicals, etc etc. Vegetables are as well, I’m not going to lie, but it is more economically feasible to purchase organic veggies/fruits/breads than it is to buy organic meats, in my experience. Seriously, $8/pound for organic trout?
Also, the production of meat is extremely inefficient. It takes a remarkable amount of resources just to produce one hamburger patty. I’m interested in your response to this issue. How do you justify that expenditure of resources when, as you pointed out, there is a lot of the world that lacks basic necessities, such as water, food or safety from warfare?
Its a shame that society has to be ridden with Peta-fanatic, crazy hippie vegetable nazis who constantly scream “inhuman†and “unhealthyâ€.
Okay. ‘Crazy hippie vegetable nazis’ is going too far. Those are the MINORITY of vegetarians. The minority, you hear me? That means MOST OF THEM simply think that meat-eating is wrong and are taking a quiet stand against it. A great majority of them aren’t going outside and picketing. I have a friend who’s vegetarian and she just won’t eat meat, she won’t force her beliefs on someone else. This may be surprising, but the human body was BUILT to eat meat. There’s nothing unhealthy about eating meat- we’ve been doing it for millenia now.
There’s nothing wrong with NOT eating meat. Secondly, eating meat is a good thing, both for the human body, but furthermore, the development of who we are as homo sapiens sapiens. Think about it. The cornerstones of invention, language, culture and civilization were all started by our ancestors, who were discussing them while they were waiting for their meat to cook over the fire.
That means civilization was started by fire. Think about it. Vegetable stew cooking over a fire would have stimulated language the same way. That meat had to be hunted and killed, as unfair to the animal as it is.
Oh? So animals are born to be eaten by humans? Is it their destiny or something? *arches one eyebrow* Humans are omnivores. That means they eat both plants and animals.
It also means they CAN eat both, not that they HAVE to. Get it into your heads that HUMANS LIKE MEAT.
Some don’t. I see it as arrogant that someone wouldn’t eat meat- you are practically turning down a dinner invitation at houses in, say, about 3/4 of the world. It is human that we will gather around meat! I am sick and tired of vegeterrorists screaming and protesting meat packing plants and furriers and basically declaring anything that even slightly harms an animal as “inhumaneâ€.
‘Vegeterrorists’? Your stereotyping is hugely insulting to me. And some people LIKE animals. Guess what? Animals will be harmed- and it is only natural.
Fair point. Homo Sapiens Sapiens are consumers- we eat things that eat other beings!
You just said they were omnivores. Plus, consumers just means that we aren’t plants. But we can EAT just plants. Furthermore, the use of the term inhumane is irrelevant when there are people who don’t have anything to eat, period, whether they are carnivores and omnivores.
Why bring in world hunger to this? We’re talking about vegetarianism here, not world hunger. Dammit, there are opressive dictatorships that must be toppled! People are dying of aids and cancer, and we don’t have a cure! It seems to me that there are issues that are far more “inhumane†than the meat industry!
But some people feel more strongly and feel they can actually DO something about the meat industry. Some people feel helpless with those other problems you mentioned. Those vegetarian freaks should spend more time helping out people who are dying of aids, or starving people, or people in Kosovo, Chechnya, or Darfur that are going through a freaking genocide right now, rather than trying to take down meat.
‘Vegetarian freaks’? Are you just insulting them? Bottom line? Humans like meat, and instead of wasting your time boycotting what most of the world has accepted since the beginning of time, why not help somebody who really needs it?
Some people think that humans are too arrogant, thinking that humans are far better than animals.
47 – Oh be quiet, Cliff Eagle, and stop being so rude.
I hope nothing I said was offensive or overly rude. I’m quite angry right now, so I shall leave and cool down. *does so*
“47. Cliff Eagle | January 3rd, 2009 at 5:41 pm
44- SFTDP, didn’t see this one.
Well, obviously, since your resume is much better than tony bourdains, I’ll take your word for it that you know SO much more about food than he does. Tell me, Vendaval, which high-end restaurant, have you been the chef at?”
Well, thanks for asking, but I’ve never held any executive positions. My resume is quite impressive, I know, thanks again, but I’ve never really seen much in the chef lifestyle.
Honestly though, I’m confused here. You seem to be attacking me and my knowledge of the food industry, but I can’t figure out why. I practically sided with you in the post you reference, 44, and although you could’ve mistaken me for someone else (your comment “didn’t see this one.” makes it seem like you’re plowing through a list), you do refer to me by name, so that can’t be it. You question my credentials as my ability to pass judgment on the food industry, but I can’t find anything in my post to suggest that I know more than Bourdain, the closest I get to that is saying “I personally think that his work is fantastic“. I was simply trying to analyze and explain his writing in a way that would anger the least people, to continue with a civil discussion.
Because on the surface, he is simply insulting and rude, a strategy that is well suited to the jungle of the media today, but not, I feel, to our blog. Please be more considerate in the future with your use of language.
The issues of human and environmental degradation are more closely related than they might appear. Overfishing and pollution of our oceans leads to a declining fishery stock, which drives people dependent on the sea for food into other more questionable trades- Somali pirates.
Ironically, if American farmers would use solely organic means to produce their crops, we would have less product, which would send more to Africa. Crazy Farm Bill.
Our culture consumes too much meat, but that’s not a cause to completely eliminate from our diets- most people still won’t. A gradual shift towards a healthier public diet would be beneficial to all, and possibly allow the relocation of some of that food-energy, because if we all became vegetarians today, it would not all magically go to feed other nations.
50- Not all vegetarians are snobs, but I think they put up with a certain amount of stigma, with can make you jaded, and changing your diet so drastically is usually the effect of a strong moral feeling, whic then divides the world up into right or wrong. It’s also easier to notice vegetarians who are snobs.
I am going to try not to eat meat at all tomorrow, just to see if I can do it. It’s like an experiment, to find out if it would really be so awful to be a vegetarian. I tried this a few years ago with two of my friends – we tried not to eat meat for a whole weekend. None of us managed, because we all forgot about the plan by Saturday. Just to make sure I don’t forget, I shall type out my plan ten times.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
Don’t take yourself so seriously. Certainly, not all vegetarians are snobs but I do think a lot of them (us?) need to get off their high horses. You can defend all of your food choices ’til the cows come home, but, in the end, whether or not you eat meat doesn’t make much of a difference and preaching about it isn’t going to ‘convert’ any of the unenlightened. And, if you are so insulted by being called a ‘veggieterrorist’ or whatever perhaps you should eat some beef.
45- I’m going to try and go though your post as calmly as possible, removing any traces of racial slurs or insults.
“…but the human body was BUILT to eat meat.”/ “Humans are omnivores. That means they eat both plants and animals.”
-First of all, you are contradicting yourself. You say supposedly in the first sentance that humans are made to eat only meat, and then later go on to say that they can eat both plants and meat. The only animals that are BUILT to eat only meat, as far as bodily science is concerned, are carnivores, which humans are not. So technically, if humans did not want to consume meat, they could choose only to eat plants, which many of them have already done. Animals that were BUILT to eat meat would not have this simple choice.
“Get it into your heads that HUMANS LIKE MEAT.”
-Yes, many humans do enjoy meat. But some humans do not. They can’t live with the fact that what they are eating was once a gentle cow or an adorable chicken, and that what they are putting through their digestive systems is something dead, which I think is admirable of them. They choose to live with a more natural diet. And besides, even if eating meat is a natural human craving, many people have been able to curb cravings. What about smoking? Even if some people do like to smoke, they have been able to kick the habit. The same applies to vegetarians and meat. They have simply kicked the habit.
“I am sick and tired of vegetarians protesting meat packing plants and furriers and basically declaring anything that even slightly harms an animal as “inhumaneâ€. Guess what? Animals will be harmed- and it is only natural. ”
-You’re absolutely right. It’s true that human nature is to be destructive and greedy, taking things and killing for their own benefit. And I consider this to be a sad fact of life. I’m sure that someone as competent as yourself would protest to murder if it was someone you cared about with their life on the line? This is what these vegetarians are doing for animals, because they love animals and don’t want to see them get hurt, which they consider to be sick and inhumane. And for good reason!
“I see it as arrogant that someone wouldn’t eat meat”
-You would. However, if it is someone’s personal choice not to eat the dead, then I think that it is only fair that they get their request. This could be turned around exactly the same way if someone were to say to you, “Well, I think that’s it’s rude that you won’t eat this salad, so I won’t let you in to dinner.” That would be equally as arrogant, if not more so. At least vegetarians have a good reason for not eating meat. You have no reason not to eat vegetables, and besides, they’re good for you.
“Homo Sapiens Sapiens are consumers- we eat things that eat other beings! ”
-Sometimes we do. However, if you’re a vegetarian, you eat plants, which as far as I’m concerned don’t eat anything but carbon dioxide, water, nutrients from the soil and sunlight.
48- Better than putting 10-plus pesticides through your system with every bite.
.45 ” Humans like meat, and instead of wasting your time boycotting what most of the world has accepted since the beginning of time, why not help somebody who really needs it?”
Not all humans like meat. Many people are repulsed by the idea of ingetsing the flesh of another animal; would you have them go against their own instinct simply because people have always eaten meat?
What does helping people have to do with vegetarianism? Were I a vegetarian or vegan I would still be perfectly capable of volunteering at a soup kitchen, donating to charity, or participating in a 10k for cancer. Deciding not to eat meat because of poorly regulated slaughter practices does not negate a person’s potential for charitable activity.
Your frustration seems to be the focus on animal cruelty rather than AIDS or cancer and the like. I can understand that, but that’s no reason for people to stop campainhing for decent treatment of animals, nor does it mean that AIDS or cancer are less worthy causes. People just respond to things differently, I suppose. There’s no dictating what people work towards.
as for bourdain he is lulzy and I don’t take anything he says very seriously. chefs are probably naturally disposed against particular customers, and as a lover of food he probably finds the omnivore’s diet much more appealing, fufilling etc. People do what they do, it’s all opinion. His is worth no less than mine.
53 – No! I am not myself a vegetarian! But I have lots of friends who are vegetarians and I respect their decision and would do it myself if chicken wasn’t so tasty. And I don’t go and preach about anything! I find it insulting that Cliff Eagle thinks a majority of vegetarians go around and try to force someone else to become a vegetarian, because that’s not true for all of them! And that’s the stereotyping I find insulting, not to me, but to all vegetarians.
54 – Wait, what? That last sentence? Please clarify.
I do not impose my food decisions on anybody else. I, as a “vegetarian freak”, simply chose not to eat meat. This is my personal decision (Free will, you know?). Because I have the option not to eat animals and fish, I do not. I seriously believe that I’m harming less creatures this way. Why can you not work to stop genocide while making whatever dietary choices that you want? I’m fairly certain that people who suffer from Celiac disease, or who have decided not to eat MSG, or even avoid fake sugar can try to cure cancer or AIDS without being distracted by their dietary decisions. In my experience, in fact, most vegetarians are incredibly socially conscious.
I would never dream of “converting” anyone to vegetarianism.
.54 – Eh, organic foods are not an option for everyone. They’re not widely available in a lot of grocery stores and they are often twice the price of non-organic options. If you can afford organic meat, good for you, but for someone living on a tight budget, they’ll have to decide for themselves if non-organic meat of questionable origin is something they want to eat. It may be healthier (and cheaper) for them to not eat meat all together.
OK. First off- the basic facts of life and the food web. You probably learned this in second grade, but obviously, I need to rehash it to you. A human could eat, lets say a cow. That cow eats grass, and that grass is fed by soil and sun. That means that a human is a consumer. This has been the case, since, well, humans ever existed. I see no reason that vegetarians should have to deviate from who we are as Homo sapiens sapiens. So? We are omnivores, dammit. You were born as an omnivore, your parents were born as omnivores, your grandparents were born as omnivores, etc etc etc. It doesn’t matter if they became vegetarians or vegans, they are omnivores. This is how either God or Evolution intended humans to be. Some people call me a “militant carnivore”. Not true. I am a militant omnivore. On a much wider note, why do we even care about how animals are treated in times like these, when more humans are being mistreated than animals? Oh sure. The vegetable nazis say “Animals are as important as humans”. Guess what, vegeterrorists, that’s crock full of horse crap! We must help our brothers and sisters before we help the animals, whose problems are less frequent and have lesser magnitude than ours. Animals do not threaten other animals with weapons of mass destruction, that if escalated, could result in extinction of the whole world. Animals are not racist enough to start a war with different animals on the ground of race. The economic system of animals is not so low that they are starving to death! Before we can solve the problems of animals, we must help other humans. Then, once we solve the AIDS epidemic, nuclear proliferation, worldwide education and poverty, malnutrition and racism, which is at the root of most of these problems, we can finally start yelling “inhumane”.
.56 – My mistake, then. As a vegetarian, I can tell you that I do not find Cliff Eagle’s ‘stereotyping’ as particularly offensive. Someone always has something nasty to say about vegetarians, and being “hugely offended” is a huge waste of time.
59- Okay… um…my arguments:
1. Can’t we help animals AND people.
2. By giving up meat, we aren’t going all out forceing others to do it too, instead we are making our own small commitment to helping animals.
3. If you want me to help others so bad, what have you done?
4. Shouldn’t this be a personal choice? One that you will never be impacted by.
5. If I’m going to eat Vegetarian who am I hurting? No one. If I’m going to eat meat who am I hurting? Animals.
6. If I walked by you without telling you I was YodaShmoda could you tell I didn’t eat meat? No. So why would it matter?
59 – I’m beginning to think this is a huge waste of time, but whatever.
OK. First off- the basic facts of life and the food web. You probably learned this in second grade, but obviously, I need to rehash it to you.
Being condescending won’t help. Plus, I didn’t attend second grade. A human could eat, lets say a cow. That cow eats grass, and that grass is fed by soil and sun. That means that a human is a consumer. This has been the case, since, well, humans ever existed. I see no reason that vegetarians should have to deviate from who we are as Homo sapiens sapiens.
So? We are omnivores, dammit. You were born as an omnivore, your parents were born as omnivores, your grandparents were born as omnivores, etc etc etc. It doesn’t matter if they became vegetarians or vegans, they are omnivores. This is how either God or Evolution intended humans to be.
But, again, you can just not eat meat. It won’t hurt you… Some people call me a “militant carnivoreâ€. Not true. I am a militant omnivore.
‘Militant’ being the operative word. On a much wider note, why do we even care about how animals are treated in times like these, when more humans are being mistreated than animals?
Some people think animals are just as important as people. Oh sure. The vegetable nazis say “Animals are as important as humansâ€. Guess what, vegeterrorists, that’s crock full of horse crap!
Are you intending to offend people? Calling people names won’t help your argument any. We must help our brothers and sisters before we help the animals, whose problems are less frequent and have lesser magnitude than ours.
You can help both people AND animals. Animals do not threaten other animals with weapons of mass destruction, that if escalated, could result in extinction of the whole world. Animals are not racist enough to start a war with different animals on the ground of race.
You can help both animals and the impoverished people. And how can you help that first bit? The economic system of animals is not so low that they are starving to death! Before we can solve the problems of animals, we must help other humans.
YOU CAN HELP BOTH AT THE SAME TIME! Then, once we solve the AIDS epidemic, nuclear proliferation, worldwide education and poverty, malnutrition and racism, which is at the root of most of these problems, we can finally start yelling “inhumaneâ€.
You can’t solve every problem in the world. The world will never be perfect. But you can help.
59-But if as you say, humans are different from animals, then they have the free will. And several people have already pointed out that not all Vegetarians are “Vegeterrorists” as you call. Does being “millitant ominivor” make you any different from the radical vegetarians that you are so against.You can’t accuse other people of forcing their view on you and then force your views on them.
Sometimes being vegetarian is more economical, my mom did it in college, and she’s none the worse. I don’t know if vegetarianism is more healthy, but it’s certainly not less healthy.
In addition, if someone doesn’t like the [i]taste[/i] of meat, (Some of my vegi friends don’t.) they shouldn’t have to eat it. Food should be a pleasureful experience
59-Energy is lost at every step of the food web, as you probably know. ___
__I___I__ Humans
__I_______I__ Cows
__I___________I__ Grain
I________________I Sun
(Or something like this)
This means more grain is needed to feed more cows for humans to eat, than if it is used to be, say, baked into bread to feed people.
Yes, but the ones in factory farms certainly don’t eat grass (acutally, they’re usually fed corn, which is not healthy for them)! And even some so-called “organic” companies aren’t quite as…ethical as they seem to be. The Omnivore’s Dilemma (a book) is very good.
.62 – I think Cliff Eagle’s point was that it is ridiculous to spend time/energy/money/resources trying to help the animals, when there are still so many humans who aren’t being treated humanely either. Yes, you can help them both at the same time, but I would rather ensure that impoverished families in my neighborhood have clothes for winter, instead of making sure animals are treated humanely. Human lives are far more important than animal lives. I don’t support unnecessary violence to animals, testing of products on animals or anything of that nature, but I’m not going to actively campaign against it while I could be volunteering for Heifer International or marching in a war protest.
Cliff Eagle, what are your feelings on these issues? (quoted from post 48)
Something you didn’t address is the health aspect of eating meat. I’m not allowed to link to outside sources, so I can’t provide a lot of evidence here, but most meat these days is pumped full of growth hormones, chemicals, etc etc. Vegetables are as well, I’m not going to lie, but it is more economically feasible to purchase organic veggies/fruits/breads than it is to buy organic meats, in my experience. How do you feel about that? Does that impact your consumption of meat at all?
Also, the production of meat is extremely inefficient. It takes a remarkable amount of resources just to produce one hamburger patty. I’m interested in your response to this issue. How do you justify that expenditure of resources when, as you pointed out, there is a lot of the world that lacks basic necessities, such as water, food or safety from warfare?
38- making fun of or insulting what people choose to eat is just plain rude. It’s like insulting what a person chooses to wear.
45- I have never met anyone who claims it is “unhealthy” to eat meat. I have only met people who claim the oposite, that not eating meat is unhealthy. I know that meat is the best way to get protein. I felt most of your argument pretty weak. Eating meat is better for the human race because they sat around and talked while it was cooking? I find it silly that that was the only part bolded in your entire argument. Bold something that’s actually strong, not your weakest point. Something tells me you could have come up with a better argument. Don’t call us nazis, we aren’t forcing people into concentration camps. Nor are we eager to create a vast empire. In conclusion, your argumant fell a little short. You can do better. One way to improve would to stop calling us names.
47- Don’t be rude to Vendy. What did he do to you?
49- You haven’t said anyhting rude or offensive, at least that’s the way it apeared to me. You make some good points.
52- It’s easy. Trust me.
53- I know eh? I try to be as discreet as possible about my not eating meat. I do it for my own reasons and I don’t really think I need to justify them to anybody.
54- this sentance made me laugh out lound.”if it is someone’s personal choice not to eat the dead, then I think that it is only fair that they get their request”
59- I will be honest with you. I would consider taking you seriously if you stopped calling people names and acting as though we are stupid. Please grow up. When you do, come back and I’ll be glad to listen. And really, in the long run, is my choice of diet harming you? Last time I checked my stomach wasn’t beating you up…..
63- well said. I was wondering when someone was going to bring up the fact that he’s forcing his views on us while preaching that our views shouldn’t be forced on him. (no one should force their views on anyone)
I believe I have said all I need to say. This is interesting. I am enjoying it. (for once I didn’t start the argument).
68- I think also that there are ways of treating animals much more humanely without giving up meat. I support free-range meat- both because it’s much more humane and also because free range meat tastes better because the animal has less stress. And although it is true that meat can be pumped with hormones, most vegetables are pumped full of hormones too, so there’s no “organic” benefit to making the transfer.
.69 (Kagcomix and everyone else) – Can you please put the names of the people you’re responding to in parentheses or something like that? Especially when you’re responding to a lot of people at once, it makes it a lot easier for others to read.
70 (Cliff) – Vegetables are definitely full of chemicals/hormones as well (although, I would argue less so than meat, but I don’t have any sources for that one). However, if you were to go organic, it would be more economically feasible to buy organic breads/fruits/veggies rather than organic meats which are (IMHO) outrageously expensive.
Also, the production of meat is really inefficient, in terms of resources and time. How do you justify that expenditure of resources and energy and time when there is a lot of the world that lacks basic necessities, such as water, food (of any sort) or safety from warfare?
Cliff Eagle has been repeatedly stating that, as consumers, we have to eat meat. This annoys me as I recently learned this in Bio:
Consumers simply don’t produce their own food (those would be producers). For example, both a deer and a tiger would be consumers, even though deer only eat plants and tigers only eat meat. We’re consumers, too, meaning that we have to consume energy. Plants are producers. Photosynthesis? Producing your own energy? Yeah. That.
74- Flame wars are forum arguments where the debate gets so heated that it turns to personal insults, swearing, and other such monstrous behaviour. At least one person, possibly more, has been banned from the ‘Blog for doing just that. However, that was on an old Religions thread. I couldn’t imagine how it could happen here.
71(Zallie)- It’s true. Plus organic meat is pretty hard to find (where I live) while Organic Vege’s are everywhere.
73/5( Piggy and the Man For Aiou) I think the majority of us are trying to keep our tone and meaness down. I can’t speak for everyone, but everything I write I think isn’t horribe or mean. Sorry if it is anyone. Tell me and I’ll stop.
(75) Piggy: One person was banned from the blog for a week. Nobody has ever been permanently banned from MuseBlog, and with a little common sense and courtesy, nobody ever will be.
78- Well, he took it as a basic death sentence, in regards to MB. In any case, he basically banned himself.
76- No, I haven’t read the posts. Someone on the AE thread said they were vegetarian, so I came here to investigate, but then SBF asked what a flame war was, so I answered. And now I’m gone. *fwooshes cape and disappears into darkness*
71-(zallie) i read somewhere that it takes the same amount of resources to produce 24 pb&j sandwhitches as 6 hamburgers.
we had tese really good ginger vegetable and rice patties for dinner.
i think ther is a reason why people tend to see vegetarians as stubborn is many vegetarioans ARE. they have to be stubborn and not let lunchladies who say you need your protein shove “chicken” nuggets down their throahts. they have to control there cravings for meat. this takes willpower.and they have to put extra time and money into getting alternatives, wheather it be tofu, peanuts or cheese. my sister is a vegiterian (i think it might be because she ate her lifetime quota of chicken nuggets by the age of 7) and she used to make huge deals about the rest of us eating meat, but we learned not to ea it around her. i dont really like red meat so it wasnt much of a prolem and she dosent care if we eat it when we have people over or at restraunts, so i eat meat for lunch, as a snack or when she’s somewhere else.
.81 (Marf) – Huh, I hadn’t heard that one. The number of sandwiches seems sort of low, but I think peanut butter is actually a product that takes a moderately large amount of resources to produce, so that could be right. Interesting. Thanks!
I don’t think being a vegetarian takes a particularly large amount of willpower, though. Maybe for some people?
81-(MARF) That would make a lot of sence. It also makes a lot of sence because of a lot of us are giving up meat to stand up for what we belive in. If your gonna do somthing that drastic then you’re going to have a lot of will power and stubborness.
if you are going to reduce that number it would be 4 PB&J’s for every hamburger. Hm….
Somebody said something about vegetarians being associated with PETA?
Em, no. Not me. Not most of the vegetarians I know. Maybe they’re good for converting vegetarians, but they’re not realistic at all, and there have been numerous scandals about them beating up animals because they couldn’t find one already beat up by a hunter or something. And there have been many reports of meat cartels being the same people who run organic food and vegan substitute companies.
85- Yes. They got sued by the actual PETA because of their domain name, peta. org. Which has been delinkified.
If you search People Eat Tasty Animals, you will see their site, as well as some hate mail. Wow, get a life, those who sent hate mail.
45~ I will not shy away from saying that I find this post incredibly insulting. However, I will sidestep the inevitable snippage that would occur if I voiced my thoughts using the vocabulary that is flying around my head at the moment.
I think the most infuriating part of your post is the last part; “Humans like meat, and instead of wasting your time boycotting what most of the world has accepted since the beginning of time, why not help somebody who really needs it?”
I do not think this is the case. “Humans like meat.” Humans are addicted to fat, salt and grease that is found in meat products. In a primitive lifestyle I will agree that the incredible amount of calories needed to sustain daily life was most easily obtained by eating meat products. That’s fine, just fine. However, this is the 21st century, we simply DO NOT NEED to eat meat for any reason that as a culture and a world we are addicted, yes, addicted to it. There is no other reason to eat it.
“Instead of wasting your time boycotting what most of the world has accepted since the beginning of time,”
The beginning of time? Sure, that’s cute, and I already addressed this above. In the world in which you and I live at this moment there is no reason at all for either of us to eat meat. I don’t. You do. Why do you? Because you like the way it tastes. Because “everybody does it.” Are these sound reasons? I’m not your mother, I won’t ask you if you’d jump off a cliff if everyone else did, I just ask you to seriously consider if this is a sound reason to continue this style of eating. If you think it’s sufficient, I will say no more.
“Why not help someone who really needs it?”
There are those of us who do believe that by making environmentally conscious eating and lifestyle choices creates a positive impact in our communities and on our planet. Although if everyone stopped eating meat tomorrow it would not immediately stop world hunger and violence, I do believe that in time positive signs would become apparent. I believe that being vegetarian, and especially vegan, is a very real way of changing the world for the better and helping all people.
I find it hard to believe that anyone who is concerned for the health of their planet and is willing to go against the grain of what is “accepted” to try to create a better world could be accused of not being compassionate or described as wasting their time and refusing to help people who are truly in need.
In my own experience the people that have made the decision to be vegetarian or vegan after serious thought and consideration are often some of the most accepting, compassionate and helpful people around. They have made the decision to change their lifestyle in an effort to do what they feel will help the world at large, even if not in a way that will earn them great renown or praise; they deal with scorn and insults from people who they do not try to influence, but who they will explain themselves to when given the chance.
So no, I don’t agree with what you say. I feel that many members of the vegetarian community, although not all, are, in their own way, trying to find a way to help not only those in need, but all people and life everywhere.
88- It involves: Vocab book reveiws (too easy) Book Reports. Essay revising (what I did with you) Spelling, CREATIVE WRITING, reading for homework, and grammer bytes. It’s pretty cool. Back to Vegetarian stuff:
In sixth grade we had a debate in English about Vegetarinism. It was what is above but a bit different. The kid arguing against wasn’t creative enough to think of “Vegetarianism Natzi” and because it was live there were reactions like “See here!” (not really more like: “HEY!!!!) or “I don’t get it.” The kid arguing against won, because the kid arguing for didn’t bring his notes so all he was really able to remember was that people don’t need to eat meat to survive and that she didn’t like meat.
I’m turning into a vegetarian against my will! My husband and I both like meat but he’s incredibly grossed out by it in its raw form. And I’m grossed out by how inhumanely most conventionally raised animals are treated — and priced out of buying the (usually expensive) humanely raised meat.
Alas, I must go now and make some green beens for dinner. Which I’ll eat with some cheese, Which I’ll feel a little sad about too since I’m guessing the life of the dairy cows isn’t top-notch either.
bye!
(81)MARF-I don’t even consider chicken nuggets meat anyway.
(87) Midnight Fiddler-You have many good arguments, but I would have to disagree with you on one point.
I don’t believe humans are “addicted to meat”. When I eat a nice, juicy hamburger, I don’t just eat salt and fat and calories. (On a side note, believing food is only the sum of its parts is an idea that Micheal Pollan disagrees with in In Defense of Food, which is definitely worth reading.) I taste the spices, the broth, the savory flavor of the meat. I am content because I know that the my hamburger is from the same cow, who lived a very good life, and was raised by someone I know. In short, I eat meat because it’s tasty.
Of course, I know some people don’t like meat. I know many people don’t have the advantages I have. I live in a small Iowa town with ready access to plenty of organic and local products. It would be nice if everybody had those things, but I know they don’t.
But I believe there are better ways to change the world then giving up meat.
91~ Being a vegetarian isn’t that bad, you know! Green beans are lovely, and they’re best when not overcooked, they should be bright green with a tiny bit of crunch for the best flavor. Try dipping in various things like salad dressings or mayonnaise. Just plain with butter and some salt is really good too though…..yummmm. My family often will steam some green beans without snapping the ends off first (do wash them though!) and then put them in a big bowl in the center of the table with various dips around and we attack it with fingers, less dishes, tasty and- perhaps best of all- you get to eat with your fingers! Great. Now I’ve made myself hungry.
92~ I’m glad that you have access to local, organic, humanely treated meat, dairy products and (I’m assuming) produce. I truly am glad that it’s possible where you live, I wish that was the case more often in this world.
I do not think that deciding not to eat meat is the only way to change the world, or even the best or “right” way. I’m just saying that there are those who think that it is a good contribution to the world at large and that it can help create a better life for all of us.
There are many ways in which to contribute, and all of these together can make up a much stronger force of change for the better.
Midnight Fiddler (93): Yeah, I know, being a vegetarian wouldn’t be a catastrophe at all. And the green beans turned out delicious — though sort of the opposite of your recipe. I sauteed some chopped onions in olive oil first and then added some dried savory and then the beans and some salt. I added a little water too. Then it got all nice and brown on the bottom and I stirred it up and kept adding water and stirring occasionally until the beans got limp. When they were done I spooned some onto my plate and added some squirts of lemon juice and some more salt because I can never get enough salt. Then I ate it. It was good!
Ooooo I love green beans. Anyway… anyhow… somthing about them… they are soooo good. Durning the summer we have a huge mountain of greenbeans in our wild garden. I hide behind them with a book and eat. Once I run out in one area I roll over till I find a new one. Everyone but my sister agrees that fresh off the vine is the best.
I like raw green beans too. In my much much younger days (preteen), I would snack on them at the supermarket while my mom did the shopping. Strictly speaking I guess I was shoplifting green beans, though no one ever said anything about it.
98~ i adore tomatoes in any form! While no particular time comes to mind I’ve eaten very fresh tomatoes (the large kind) that were picked at least a few hours before they came into my presence. I’ve eaten chery tomatoes right off the vine….yummmm.
If sunshine had a flavor it would be a really goo home grown tomato.
Ooh, this reminds me of a song! Has anyone else here heard the song “Homegrown Tomatoes”? Google “‘homegrown tomatoes’ song” and click on the first link.
If sunshine had a flavor it would be sort of fizzy and light, and a little bit sweet with a sort of pink-ness to it. A pink taste, I mean..Can’t explain it. Maybe I’m synaesthetic. On the topic, moonlight should taste like corn and salt and have the texture of cake.
In response to 11 (and yes, I have been lurking here for quite a while until I decided no one was going to answer), Vegemite is a sort of spread, kind of like Marmite, but made with vegetables. It’s good with pretty much anything except raw onions and broccoli.
103- Now that I think of it… sunshine would just look like tomatoes. and grow like tomatoes. It would taste warm even when frozen and buttery but a sweet buttery. Mm! I know. If you’ve ever had sweedish apple pie it would taste like the topping of that! Moonlight would taste like sugar, wrapped in a waffle cone. Or maybe a waffle cone sprinkled with sugar. And then it’s texture would be really smoothe.
Everyone at my school is suddenly going vegetarian. Like, everyone. It’s awesome/annoying.
I had a kind of ToFurky roast thing, except it really wasn’t that brand name. It was stuffed with squash, mushrooms and something else crazy. I hate squash and mushrooms, but it tasted really good put together.
Has anyone seen what happens when ToFurkey is left unwrapped in the fridge for a few days? It’s really, really gross, but I guess raw meat treated in the same way would be even worse.
In Asia they have all kinds of weird ways to imitate meat, like stuffing a crab shell with a mixture of peanut butter and ground-up beans.
So speaking of tomatoes. In my opinion the best way to eat a tomato is: a) in slices in grilled cheese or b) like an apple, possibly with a sort of sauce.
What is the big difference between a vegetarian and a non-vegetarian, one might ask, and why must they be so offended by the other’s culinary decisions? One chooses to eat the deceased, the other does not. If one develops a keen distaste for corpses, the other should celebrate the new abundance of consumables en finds so delectable. The urge to validate one’s own decisions by invalidating any opposing view may be strong but is best suppressed.
In all honesty, can anyone say the difference between a hamburger and a veggie burger is so immense we cannot maintain friendly relationships with those who consume the opposite of our own? They’re both patties, one of flesh and one of vegetable matter.
Should the meat-eater, offended by the select few vegetarians who attempt to force their food choices on others, force en’s food choices on innocent bystanders? And should en defend en’s belief that meat is central to human life by simultaneously claiming humans are less savage than the other savages and supporting a return to the primitive lifestyle observed by our distant ancestors? And should we blindly follow tradition?
Humans will never solve all of their problems. They bring them on themselves continuously. Is there anything wrong with trying to prevent the unnecessary suffering of other animals as caused by humans? Should the other animals suffer indefinitely because humans can’t stay out of trouble? There will never be an ideal time during which we have nothing else on our minds besides inhumane treatment of other animals. Being a vegetarian isn’t so time-consuming that I cannot do everything I can to try to end human suffering. Becoming a vegetarian and working to end the suffering of other animals is frequently an indication of a very kind-hearted, generous, caring person who is willing to do anything they can to help any number of causes, and we shouldn’t discourage any kind of compassionate feelings.
In summary, we ought to celebrate diversity and ignore those who are so self-absorbed they feel everyone simply must lead the same life they lead.
91-Awesome! Let us know how you do! Oh, and yes, there is that with dairy. But then again, if nobody supported free-range eggs and organic milk, why would farmers even bother to produce any? Unless the whole world goes vegan, I think some people who can’t stand to give up meat or dairy but who are willing to buy organic/humane products should be encouraged to do so. After all, if we were all vegans, there wouldn’t be any farm animals!
108- Everything you said was true… other than the fact that Vegetarians and Ombnivores can’t get along. I’m one of two vegetarians in my school of 1283 if I couldn’t get along with the meat eaters I would have had a mental breakdown by now.
108 Should the meat-eater, offended by the select few vegetarians who attempt to force their food choices on others, force en’s food choices on innocent bystanders? And should en defend en’s belief that meat is central to human life by simultaneously claiming humans are less savage than the other savages and supporting a return to the primitive lifestyle observed by our distant ancestors? And should we blindly follow tradition?
Ok, mf, lets cut the bull here. You know you are referring to me, so why don’t you go out and say it to my face, rather than hinting at me when everyone knows who you are talking about.
I think it’s legitimate to depersonalize a debate by addressing arguments rather than personalities. In fact, I’m not sure what is gained by doing it the other way around.
.108 – To be perfectly honest, I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Becoming a vegetarian and working to end the suffering of other animals is frequently an indication of a very kind-hearted, generous, caring person who is willing to do anything they can to help any number of causes, and we shouldn’t discourage any kind of compassionate feelings.
This, in particular. I don’t follow your logic at all. I know you said ‘frequently’ and not ‘always’ but I don’t believe that being a vegetarian makes a person more ” kind-hearted, generous, [and] caring” than someone who eats meat. I feel like your second point (that vegetarians are often activists, “willing to do anything they can to help any number of causes”) is slightly more realistic, but I think it’s more likely that activists choose to be vegetarian rather than vegetarians are automatically activists.
It’s actually really stupid to debate something like this. Cliff Eagle, everybody else, we all have our separate opinions. None of us is going to change another’s opinion, so why even try? I mean, really. Think about it.
My Opinion:
Vegetarians shouldn’t be treated unfairly. They should have our own opinions, and so should the vegans and the pescetarians (sp?) or whoever else is out there, including omnivores. Leave everybody alone, and everybody’s happy. See?
But whatever, you can continue debating this. I’ll just check here a lot less often than before and I will give a little input from time to time.
And PLEASE don’t criticize this heavily. I have repeatedly stated here that this is my OPINION, not that I want you to think.
112- get over yourself. This debate isn’t specifiaclly about you, Cliff Eagle, it is about the different views that have been expressed. It’s better when it’s not so personal because then people don’t feel the need to take personal shots. Get over yourself, grow up and cut out the name calling. It makes you look childish.
115- “MF” is a short form for a rather offensive term that would be snipped had Cliff Eagle expressed it in full. He was not refering to you. It caught me a little off guard too.
118- No. I meant midnight fiddler. I apologize for the confusion and if i offended anyone, but I will retain that I meant fiddler, who you will find that I often confuse with RTH.
Hello! I’m a veggiematerian and I have a warning for all you soy-eaters under 18. This may not apply to every, but it’s best to safe, right? Make sure that you aren’t eating more than about 8 times a month. Having too much could make your body speed up. For instance, a 12 year old (that eats too much soy)’s bone age could be 15. Or slow them down. A 10 year old’s bone age could be 7. And then these hypothical children would be experiencing things that people of that age go through.
So…drink lotsa hemp milk, okay?
Yeah, not eating meat. I guess my view is that it doesn’t really affect the amount of animals killed if, I am a vegetarian. However, it’s different with pets such as cats and dogs. Yeah, I believe It’s possible. Unfortunately that’s off topic.
Anyway, Indianans eat meat on 17 of their 21 meals a week. Not too many vegetarians.
118 (& related posts)~ If he’d meant that I would assume that using his grasp of the English language he would have said “mfer” or something like that. I realize that my MB name can be taken wrong, and that one of the common abbreviations is, well, MF.
123~ Ah, well let me say that I am not in any way attacking you. I respect you as a person and I enjoy reading your comments on this blog although I do not always agree with you. I will not attack you directly.
125~ I’m a little more concerned about all the hormones they pump into meat and dairy (especially dairy). I’m concerned about girls getting their period at age 9 and boys with breasts so large that they really should be wearing bras.
Honestly, where did you hear that?
There’s lots of estrogen in soy products, which is why my GT teacher can’t eat it. If you have a high hormonal level, you shouldn’t be eating soy. I don’t, so it’s okay. But Davey Havok might be needing a boob job soon…
135-I was thinking of saying that, but then you did. *pies*
I think the debate over whether eggs are vegetarian is kind of like the debate over abortion. When does an egg count as an animal? vs. When does a fetus count as a human? Some people think that the second you become pregnant, you harbor a human and therefor abortion is murder, but not many vegetarians consider that this theory might apply to eggs too. They aren’t fertelized, but for some, wouldn’t eating eggs count as eating animals?
134- The rules of language are deflected off the solidity of my soul.
136- Eating unfertilized eggs is fine. It’s like a woman’s menstrual cycle (is it okay that I use this comparason). The egg that leaves a woman’s body each month is not a child, and in my mind an unfertilized egg from any animal is not a child.
139~ I laughed at that. Very nice, but I must say that the usage of the word “teh” marked it as your writing….
Actually, some people do use the bible as a reason that people should eat meat. Of course, there are people who use the bible to say we shouldn’t eat meat, so go figure.
I personally see give more weight to the latter, since it’s not just in the translation.
Where they say “meat” in the bible they usually mean “bread”.
Those who say the bible wants us to be vegetarian point to the part in Genesis where God provides ‘herbs” for our sustenance.
I say lay off the bible thumping as far as your food choices go and live an entire lifestyle that you feel matches up with what you believe will make your God happy. If it means not eating meat because that’s a way of expressing compassion and/or mercy for His/Her creation, so be it. If you don’t look at it that way, so be it, I’m not going to tell you what to believe as far as religion, and I’m not going to tell you what you should eat.
I’ll explain why I think something, but I won’t foist my opinions on anyone else.
And now I’ve probably gone and killed this thread again. *sigh*
So, I think we all know that I am generally not outraged at meat eaters. In my newspaper there is a comic called “Betty”. It’s about a woman, her friends and her family. Right now her son is going vegetarian. I wouldn’t mind (I mean, really, who cares?) but they’re putting a negative spin on it. “A boy doesn’t become vegetarian out of the blue, I suspect the influence of a girl”. What????? Excuse me? Is there some reason a boy can’t just up and decide to become vegitarian? I guess there must be. It just annoyed me. There was another strip (same comic) where the mother served the son a lentil and couscous dish. He replied “Not only does vegetarian food not look like food, it doesn’t sound like food”. I’m just annoyed. I mean: I have been eating couscous forever, even before I was vegetarian. I don’t know what the author is trying to do but I find it is frustrating me. And we know I don’t generally get so mad about vegetarian haters.
i have been a vegetarian since that article in the january 2007 issue of muse. Whenever i tell people that i am a vegetarian, they give me this wierd look and say, “you don’t eat MEAT???” It drives me nuts everyone but my muse- reading friends do this.
after i posted i went backa and read every post, and i have to say that i am having a great time reading cliff eagles. They are so unbelievably absurd that they would be hilarious if he didn’t actually believe these things. I won’t try to argue because i would be too angry and start making rude comments, but “Peta fanatic crazy hippie vegetable nazis?” SERIOUSLY???HOW OLD ARE YOU????? sorry. i really am trying to be nice, but i feel a bit insulted.
142- I would write a letter to the paper (the editor), the cartoonist, and en’s syndicate. Explain that you feel misrepresented and upset.
139- That is pure troll. Impressive.
140- I though that there was a story in the Bible where some men came to a city, and God told them to just eat plants so they became strong enough to win a battle. But I could be misremembering, and the point of the story could have been that it was amazing they survived in just plants. Like Odysseus eating the Hemlock.
Anyways, I agree: the Bible can thump for anything.
145- Hello! I don’t think that we’ve met.
If you read all of the posts, you would know that: Cliff Eagle made some very important points, he likes to raise a ruckus, and it all ended pretty civilly.
On an unrelated note, if you polished up your capitalization and writing style your posts would be easier to understand, and more convincing.
…unless you’ve got a soul so solid it reflects grammar.
sorry. i was really mad when i wrote that. the bible really can be manipulated to support anyones opinion, which is why i don’t think that it is a good idea to use it in argument. it can be turned against you. [Snip! Off-blog contact information is not allowed. –Admin.]
I have to agree with nolagirl7 about cliff eagle being rude and acting a little younger than I think he is. “Peta-Fanatic crazy hippie vegetable nazis” is a little odd. But, he has his rights… (I guess.) Just calm down a little Cliff eagle!
145- So did I, at first. After a while, everyone gets their backsides burnt up a little, but nobody got roasted enough that we all hate each other. Am I right?
By the way, I don’t believe we’ve met. A pleasure, I’m sure. The name’s Aggie the Fish. Welcome to the blog. *pies*
148- Same to you as nola. *pies*
I recently found out that if I decided to be a vegetarian but craved meat every once in a while, tofu smothered in BBQ sauce would be sufficient for me.
149 and 146- iIam sort of new to museblog, though i have subscribed since i was six. Aggie is right about not hating each other. The two of us will just have to refrain from speaking directly to each other.
151- I still eat most shellfish (even though it is not kosher) and all dairy, and even for a little while after i became a vegetarian i ate fish. I could never be a vegan, but being part vegetarian is so easy.
152- Don’t worry, eventually you’ll forget all about it. I used to fight all the time (albeit in a tearful, not-quite-fighting, “you’re entitled to your opinion but you’re being horribly offensive sob sob let’s stop talking about it” sort of way) with Fiddler and Dancergirl, the former of which is now my “unofficial twin” and the latter of which was a good friend until she mysteriously vanished.
well even if i am a bit offended it is great to be able to have a good debate. whenever i get into one with anyone else, they just say, “It’s dumb. why go without hot dogs?”
First of all, welcome to the blog nolagirl7! *pies* I hiope you enjoy your time here.
GAPAs, there’s a (non linkified) reference to off-blog chatting in post 147. nolagirl7 is new, so I assume she doesn’t know about how links are discouraged, especially ones that lead to sites off blog that share personal information. This is not to be mean or a tattletale, it’s just there and it’s against the rules, since no one else has said anything I thought I would.
153~ Oh yes, I remember that. It was after the first big kokonventions with the email fiasco, right? Or was there more before then, I don’t recall?
A many summers ago I subsisted on soy hot dogs. It was dreadful, and I refuse to eat them to this day. I generally like “LightLife” products, but their imitation hot dogs (smart dogs, they’re called) are gross. just a warning, if you ever find yourself confronted with them.
161-Hot dogs often seem as if they are in some sort of plastic sleeve that is intended for removal before consumption. I think morningstar’s soy dogs are a bit better than smart dogs, though I haven’t directly compared them…
162~ They are better, much better. The only problem is they aren’t vegan. I usually opt for the Boca bratwurst, because they have more flavor than hot dogs and are fairly common. The Yves bratwurst are okay flavor (not the greatest, but okay) but an odd texture. I don’t really like their products that much. Boca is good for the brats, hamburgers and such, LightLife is good for Smart Bacon, Gimmie Lean (sausage), and there’s another brand that makes good Chicken Nuggets, but I can’t remember the name. They also make Spinach nuggets that are pretty good. Maybe that’s MorningStar, but I don’t remember!
Tofuti makes good sour crea amd cream cheese, but NEVER try their cheese slices, they taste like a combination of plywood and sock lint. Eew! Their ice cream isn’t very good either, it’s really gummy and nasty.
So Delicious (not Soy delicious) makes the best ice cream in your basic flavors (chocolate, vanilla, neapolitan, peanut butter and others) and they also have another line of “special” flavors (in smaller containers) that’s called “Purely Decadent” That are AMAZING. They have Key Lime pie, Pomegranite chocolate chip, cherry nirvana, turtle trails and pecan praline and more. Those are really good.
Soy/rice/almond cheese is a tricky thing. They often have casein in them that makes them melt, and unfortunately a bunch of the vegan ones taste completely gross. Some of the begans ones are really good, but they probably don’t taste much like “real” cheese.
My favorite all vegan cheese is a rice cheese called “Veganrella” and I can only find it at Ukrops in Virginia, which makes me very sad. My mom likes the kind made by “Follow Your Heart”, but I’m not as crazy about it. It’s okay, but not my favorite.
Oh, and Earth Balance or Willow Run margerines are the best. If you like stick butter go for Willow Run, get Earth Balance in the tub, the stick form isn’t as good.
Wow. More information than anyone probably wanted to know…..!
I’m neither a vegetarian nor great hater of hot dogs, but I did happen to watch a program which included the production of commercial sausages the other day. My conclusion: Not quite a visual wonderland of aesthetic pleasure, or any other type of pleasure for that matter &etc.
The procedure is basically:
– Dump some pork into a giant swirly-bin & mush it around
– Pump the stuff into long tubes of ? (Plastic sheeting? Pigskin?)
– Package.
They proceeded to demonstrate the manager of the sausage company snapping a sausage in half. “That’s where the hot dog’s classic *snap* comes from! After all that machinery, you’ll have something to think about when your teeth *snap* into your next hot dog!”
162- On a rather unrelated note, I have eaten fish sausages which do actually come in a plastic sleeve, intended for removal before consumption. *thumbs up*
163-Aha, indeed I have noticed not all morningstar products are vegan, though I don’t think I had checked the hot dogs. All of that information does help, actually! I’m not familiar with all of the products, particularly the vegan cheeses and ice creams. I’m glad to have some recommendations! Oh, and I believe morningstar does make good spinach nuggets, though I haven’t had them for a while. They also make nice rice-and-veggie patties, though they are somewhat expensive for how much food you get, and I don’t know if they’re vegan.
Agh, I have succeeded in making myself hungry at this late hour!
morningstar breakfast sausages are awsome. i have gotten my non-vegetarian friend addicted. hot dogs are really gross, the kosher ones are a tiny bit better.
155- Sorry, i forgot about that rule. thsnks for the reminder.
Um, why are you typing with one hand anyway? i really need to start trying more fake meaty-things, i just do morningstar and tofurkey.IM AT DISNEY WORLD FOR MARDI GRAS BREAK AND THERE IS NO GOOD VEGETARIAN FOOD!i did find a veggie burger today though!
America can actually be pretty hard on vegetarians.
You’d think Asia because of all the pork and stuff in Chinese products.
But actually because of the Buddhist population there are a lot of good fake-meat products
Of course, there are also some very, very, very bad ones
yesterday we were eating fried rice with “Vegetariduck” and that was just plain gross, the only part of duck meat they imitated properly was the squidgy fat, which was one of the reasons I stopped eating most meat in the first place
I eat no meat except fish.
I couldn’t give up sushi and sashimi
especially salmon
144- simply answer really seriously “Well, yes. That is what being vegitarian means….” Okay, maybe that’s only funny to me. But that’s my response to that question.
146- (Vendy) yeah, I was thinking about that but thay’ve since moved on to other topics. They probably got enough letters from scary vegitarians anyways.
152- Cliff Eagle’s a pretty nice guy. Sometimes our opinions clash but we can all handle disagreement.
154- Say: “If you want to convince me to eat meat you’re going to have to make a better argument than that. I’ve had hotdogs and I know I’m not missing anything” I do like hotdogs, but you may not. They’re on the list of things I miss.
I don’t eat fake meat stuff. I’ve had vegitarian hotdogs. I liked them. Except the texture was all wrong. I deffinitely don’t get enough protein and all that stuff you get from meat. I really should be more careful about it. But I’m not.
I’m thinking about going back to being a vegetarian. We don’t really eat animals at my house, so it won’t be too hard… did you know that 70 MILLION guinea pigs are eaten yearly?????
People, you can get PLENTY of protein from a vegetarian or vegan diet. People obsess about protein, but seriously, don’t freak out. Meat eaters who know nothing about nutrition have it in their heads that us vegetarians are somehow missing vital nutrition, and for some reason they choose to nag us about protein. Trust, me I’ve had scads of well meaning adults practically shoving stuff in my mouth (never my parents, they’re the reason I’m vegan, but friend’s parents) saying that I’m not getting enough protein and that I’m going to grow up deformed. Right. I’m perfectly healthy, thanks very much. I’m short, yes, but so are my parents, so that’s to be rather expected, no?
Seriously, if you’re vegetarian or vegan and people keep interrogating you on where you get all your nutrients, take a nutrition class somewhere or read a book on it.
I’ve found that most of the time the very people who are harping on me because I’m not eating right are the ones that eat very poorly and really should be watching their intake, maybe *gasp* eating some vegetables once in a while! Hey, who knows, if they did they might get some vitamins in their system.
It’s also amusing when after a brief questioning it turns out they really don’t even understand how you get protein in any diet. *sigh* Yes, all my amino acids are present, thanks muchly for your concern. Eh? Yeah……… :-/
It is my personal and highly unprofessional opinion that meat eaters like to harass vegans about things like these because most people feel, at some level, that eating meat isn’t really the healthiest or best way to go and that one of the main reasons they don’t want to give it up is because they simply don’t feel like it. And everyone knows that that’s the best reason to not do something, from cleaning the house to obeying traffic laws to, well, doing anything that’s inconvenient to them at that moment! Hey, why should we bother?! Let’s just make these people that are trying to make a positive change feel stupid by interrogating them about something and acting like they’re being stupid and unhealthy! Yeah, what should we gripe about? Uummmmm…..PROTEIN! Great idea guys, you have no idea how well that’s worked in getting vegetarians nearly as steamed as their plate of Buddah’s delight. (it’s a joke….)
This post turned out a little bit more snarky than I planned. Oops. Oh well, I’ve just had it with having people pestering me about protein. Consider this an exercise in reacting to hot sauce on an open wound, only with typed letters that aren’t snippable… What I said in this post I think is true, and I’ll stand behind it, but I said it in a way that may (probably) will ofend some people. Others will find amusing and yet others will use it to call me a tree hugging hippie and fanatical vegan nazi. I’m not concerned though, that’s happened before.
174- I agree that there alternative ways of getting protein without meat- i think you make a good point here. And you know nothing of snarkiness. That was actually incredibly polite.
Someone was eating duck in my science class. Normaly I have no problem with people eating meat infront of me, but when they pull out a chared ducks head and start waving it about talking about how little meat is on it I feel slightly ill. Is this wrong of me? Was it wrong to make a face? probably.
181–Is it wrong of you to have felt ill? No. I mean, I personally am not a vegetarian, I have no problem with eating or seeing people eating meat. However, you are a vegetarian. And regardless, you can’t control what does or does not make you feel ill. That is something completely beyond your control.
As far as making a face? Well, if the kid was being annoying (and it sounds like what he was eating still resembled an animal–duck’s head?????) I can’t really say it was wrong of you to make a face. Every time I pass somebody on campus who is smoking and I end up getting a lung full of their disgusting cigarette smoke I make a face. Heck, sometimes if I am stuck standing next to someboyd (like at the fair at home) who is smoking, I go so far as to bury my nose in my shirt (oh, my parents got so annoyed with my sister and I when we were little for doing this, as it was rude). Ch–more rude of the people smoking. So, it’s probably a bit inappropriate of me, but…..still.
Nah, it’s not that “wrong” if the kid was being annoying about it. It might, perhaps, ahve been a bit uncalled for if you did something more than make a face, although depending on the extent of what the kid was doing, maybe not.
182- [she] was eating the ducks head. After making the face I appolagized. She didn’t seem bugged by it. I just don’t want to come off as an obnoxious vegitarian.
183–um…..I’m not a vegetarian,but I think even I would be a bit disturbed watching somebody eat a duck’s head, as it would much too closely resemble the animal it once was. Hypocritical, I suppose, but still.
That’s gross. But instead of making a face, you should have brought some brussels sprouts or something the next day and chomped loudly on them right in front of her.
184- yeah. I completely understand. It’s so much easier to eat/ watch people eat meat when it doesn’t look like an animal. I originally stopped eating meat off the bode because it was too much like eating a friend. So no, I don’t think it’s hypocritical of you to dislike eating animals that look too much like what they are.
185- *chuckles* I hate brussel sprouts. I will not put myself through pain to annoy her.
I like brussels AND apsparagus! I guess you couls say I’m strange but I’ll eat just about anything.
Except for meat. I’m a veggie person. And I love it!
194- Some *ahem* medical authorities have brainwashed my parents into believing that veganism is going to ravish their daughters already underweight body. *mumbles* *glares* *is mad*
195~ *sigh* People are so determined that being vegetarian or vegan is bad. It’s incredibly annoying that someone who just a few moments before finding that you were vegan says how healthy you look, yet as soon as you refuse to eat a piece of cheese they act like you’re on the verge of dying from malnutrition.
It would be funny if it wasn’t so annoying and sad.
Fiddler: On the random thread, you said that your parents would likely be grossed out if you started eating meat. However, you also stated that they used to eat meat up until they were unable to afford it.
I guess I’m just a bit confused about how, if they did at one point consume meat, the thought of of such a thing now would be so repulsive. I mean, I understand that some people are vegetarian/vegan because they think eating meat is nasty, while others because they disapprove (or whatever hte appropriate term would be) of eating meat, because of its harm to animals (or other reasons, I’m sure…), but….
It just seems, I dunno, a bit odd that if someone once ate meat (and presumably did not particularly dislike it strongly), that they would now find it so repulsive….
198~ Neither of my parents were ever too fond of meat, but ate it because it was what their parents fed them and because it was the accepted thing to do.
However now, after not eating meat for upwards of 20 years neither of them associate “animal” with “food” anymore, so yes, I think it’s fair to say they would be rather grossed out now if they were to eat meat.
I’d like to be vegan, but a) I’d die, I’m already a terrible vegeterian and b) I couldn’t keep it up for longer than a week. I like my dairy products.
I think I’d be repulsed if I ate meat now. I can look at other people eating it, but I don’t think I could stand the feeling of it in my mouth, knowing what it was. And I’m only vegeterian since July.
194- My parents wouldn’t let me and I don’t think I have the will power. I’m going to do an experiment to see if I can be one for a day. But not until passover is over, I am not going to deprive myself of food for too many days in a row.
Wait–VEGEMITE!!! Are you kidding?! I looove that stuff! Especially if you put it in the toaster oven on a peice of bread with butter and muenster cheese and ham on top of it. Vegeterianism, I could probably do, but not vegan, as I could NOT possibly live without seafood. (with the exceptions of octupus, squid, crab, and lobster; my mom eats pickled squid guts as a delicacy. Yuck!)
Do they give the squid guts a fancy name to make it sound more appetizing? That’s what they do with regular meat to make people forget what they’re eating, just by calling it beef instead of cow, pork instead of pig, etc. Although it doesn’t seem to deter people from chicken. I guess they just think of that word as having two meanings, the animal and the thing that they are ingesting.
nolagirl7, a friend said that once when we were eating beef (the thing about beef, I mean.) She told me to “call it what it is!” the next night, we had chicken. She said, “You know you’re eating a dead bird, right?” I said,”Call it what it is! It’s chicken!” I would be perfectly OK eating meat if we called it cow, or sheep. I, in fact, DO call it cow. I would not even mind watching the process. I do not believe in vegetarianism. If people have such weak stomachs that just knowing that something has been alive turns them vegetarian, I think we should stick them back in ancient times and see if they survive.
I wrote the following:
Though these actions you may deplore,
I am, my friend, an omnivore.
built to eat both plant and meat
not merely the grass beneath my feet.
I may slaughter the bovine masses,
but I, dear sir, don’t eat their grasses.
Killing them quickly is better, by far,
than taking their food and letting them starve.
And you, dear reader, I’m telling you now,
eat a vegan, save a cow.
–[Snip!]
Hemlock is poisonous, and so are those berries,
poison ivy and oak, and – hey, those aren’t cherries!
There are all sorts of plants which no one can eat,
not so when we devor our various meats.
meats have more nutrients, taste, and, of course,
they fill you up better than a mouthful of gorse.
They may not like it, but please be kind now.
Save a vegan, feed them a cow.
–[Snip!]
Just FYI, I do NOT condone the eating of vegans! Meat, on the other hand – YUMMY.
But it’s not ancient times. We’re a bit more advanced, and therefor we should be more humane. I believe killing animals, even if it’s painless, is inhumane and barbarian.
205- Veganism means not eating animal products – milk, honey, etc. Vegetarianism is not eating any meat at all. So apparently you couldn’t do either. You could, however, be a pescetarian, meaning that you eat fish but no other meat. That’s what I do.
207- It’s not that we have weak stomachs. It’s that we do not like to eat once-alive things- or it is in my case. I don’t eat most animals because I like to watch them roam around and I don’t like sitting on a fencepost watching gentle, docile cows graze and having my thoughts marred by the realization that those creatures are going to be killed very soon so that people like me can eat them. They aren’t doing any harm- they’re just eating grass- who are we to disrupt such harmless and gentle beasts?
209) They aren’t doing very much good, either. And keep in mind that if they had any semblance of sapient thought, they wouldn’t sit around waiting to be eaten. The same argument could be made for some humans… Darn those religious restrictions! It would be so much easier to suffer fools if we could eat them! And you wouldn’t call cows harmless if you’d ever been knocked over by one (not me, a friend). And I like animals, too. S’matter of fact, one of my best friends is a cow! (A human one, but that’s a long story.) I don’t see why the thought of eating something that was once alive bothers you so much. It would have died anyway, at least now it has a purpose. Besides, you do know that lettuce and carrots are classified as living things? And they think about as much as a cow. Just saying.
“Tho these actions you may deplore,
I am, my friend, an omnivore.”
Kokopelli52’s cows are lucky to be able to roam around freely. Most cows conditions make it kinder for them to be killed. But don’t you think it would make more sense to improve thier conditions?
Incidentally, the cows may not be doing much good, but cows don’t do much harm either. knocking a human over is a lot less awful than fighting wars that kill millions of people or causing global warming.
I could argue about global warming, but I won’t. Just because something does no harm in one form, if it does good in another form and not in the first, well, what is the problem?
Maybe you’re exaggerating just a tad on that “millions of people”?
(212) CQC: The author of the Historical Atlas of the 20th Century estimates that in that century alone, 188 million people died in wars, genocides, or famine deliberately engineered to kill people. His breakdown is 83 million deaths from genocide and tyranny, 42 million military deaths in war, 19 million civilian deaths in war, and 44 million deaths from manmade famine. Estimates by other historians fall in the same ballpark; Zbigniew Brzezinski, for example, came up with a figure of 167 million to 175 million deaths “inspired by politically motivated carnage” in the 20th century.
Just a few of CQC’s points that bother me in particular.
(1) If people have such weak stomachs that just knowing that something has been alive turns them vegetarian, I think we should stick them back in ancient times and see if they survive.
You could say I have a weak stomach, I dislike the thought of death inflicted on any manner of creature, be they human or animal, when they are unable to defend themselves. I think that this is unjust and wrong. Beating up a smaller child on the playground who cannot defend themselves is wrong. Killing an animal who cannot defend itself is wrong. Not, perhaps, having the same priority, but I believe these examples to be related. So yes, I have a weak stomach in the form of strong morals, if you’ll pardon my sounding perhaps a little arrogant there.
Like Beavo said, this is not ancient times. You do not need the huge amount of calories and fat supplied by eating meat. This is because you do not do heavy physical labor (assuming that you are a typical person). We have the capability to be humane, we do not need to eat meat (and, indeed are suffering for the choice to remain eating it).
Let’s see you survive during ancient times as well, omnivore or no.
(2) [talking about cows] They aren’t doing very much good, either. And keep in mind that if they had any semblance of sapient thought, they wouldn’t sit around waiting to be eaten.
I agree that cows are not doing much good, so why do the farmers keep breeding them? Because you want to eat them. If you, and the majority of the population, didn’t eat theme there simply would no be as many cows eating up the VAST resources that could be used to feed humans. Meat is incredibly wasteful. If the fresh water and grain used to keep meat animals alive until they are butchered were used to feed humans instead, do you realize how much that could do to end global hunger? Obviously you do not.
I agree also that cows are not doing thinking about history, writing poetry or making discoveries in quantum physics, but does the fact that their intellect is not the same as yours mean they should be kept for the sole purpose of killing? Should we breed and raise mentally retarded humans for meat? Most people would be horrified at such a suggestion. Do you agree with slavery? Racism? While I do not think that a cow’s life is equal with a human’s, there are common threads running through these issues.
(3) And you wouldn’t call cows harmless if you’d ever been knocked over by one (not me, a friend).
This is just ridiculous. Anything in this world can be harmful in some way. You can choke on an ice cube, you could be hit with a shoe and hurt, something might poison you…..the list goes on and on. This is not a valid point against vegetarianism, this is a stupid and irrelevant story.
(4)I don’t see why the thought of eating something that was once alive bothers you so much. It would have died anyway, at least now it has a purpose.
You will die anyway, so I’m sure you don’t have a problem if I murder you now, because your life will have a purpose: making me feel good for a few minutes because you were annoying me. Again, not the exact situation, but it has some eerie similarities, doesn’t it? What is the meaning and purpose of life?
Perhaps it’s just me, but I find the thought that everything else’s purpose is to glorify ME and make ME comfortable, happy, successful, etc. rather disturbing. It’s true, we’re all the most important to ourselves, but isn’t that going a little far? If you want to bible thump at me that God put us here to have “dominion over the animals and the beasts of the field” then think on this one; “dominion” doesn’t really mean “I’m bigger than you so I get to call the shots and bully you.” It means, “I have dominion, so I have the RESPONSIBILITY to protect those under me.” Last I checked, it would be pretty disturbing if someone we trusted to protect us killed or tortured us instead….
(5) Besides, you do know that lettuce and carrots are classified as living things? And they think about as much as a cow. Just saying.
Yes, lettuce and carrots are living things. Do they have a brain? No. Does a cow? Yes. Does a carrot feel pain? Not that we can tell. Does a cow? Yes. They have pain sensors and behavioral indications that are pretty unequivocal. A carrot is alive. A cow is alive. The similarity stops pretty soon after that.
Animals may not have the same kind of intelligence as we do, but again, does that mean that we can do whatever we want with them? Think about racism, think about mental retardation, think about domination and the responsibility entailed in that. These things have a basis somewhere that isn’t perhaps as glaringly obvious as they, nor perhaps as seemingly dangerous, but they have many common factors, whether it appears so or not.
(6) Maybe you’re exaggerating just a tad on that “millions of people�
Not at all. Read Robert’s post. The incredible loss of lives (and the unspoken loss of the trauma and horror) of wars and human tyranny is more than one can fully comprehend. This is not something to be taken lightly. To do so is to disrespect and dishonor the sacrifice those millions of people have made, whether you agree with the cause or not.
Just out of curiosity, how old and what gender is CQC?
Do research. Learn the facts. Be aware that most nutrition education comes from the meat industry.
As with anything, observe the world around you, but look beyond the surface. What you see will not always be attractive, often it will shock you and make you question what you formerly trusted to be correct. What you see beyond the surface will challenge your assumptions, will change your views, and often leave you feeling empty and devoid of things to be sure of.
It’s terrifying, and many, many people avoid it because it is easier to live in ignorance, but is that really a life? What you see isn’t always pretty, but it can be beautiful.
210: I have to ask you this: How many people do you know of who have been knocked over by cows? And how many people have you heard of that have been killed by humans? I would actually say that the cows have every reason to harm us. “Something that would die anyway…” Why should they die on our account?
Carrots and lettuce cannot feel pain or be afraid or upset. Cows can.
CQC is a fifteen year old female, and she thinks that if something must die, and they can do nothing with their life, they should do something with their death.
Humans do kill many of their own, and that is a HORRIBLE thing, yes, and I’m sorry I was uninformed about the exact number. However, sometime war is necessary, as is killing animals for meat. You say that if all the grain, etc. used to feed cows were instead used to feed humans, we would go a long way toward ending global hunger. For one thing, I don’t know about you, but I don’t like eating grass, not unless it is a certain type and prepared in a certain way. Second, the meat also feeds many people.
Also, some people NEED to eat animal protein. It is unfair to say that no one should eat meat when they have to.
There are many differences between killing me because I annoyed you and killing a cow so I can eat. For one thing, I am not a cow. For another, I contribute more to this world than a cow, not to sound arrogant or anything.
Finally, on another note, did you know that some religions do not allow this kind of elevation of a cow? Sacrifices and the like, in any religion that has them, show that the cow should be killed for some reasons. The Jewish methods of killing an animal are extremely merciful, and the animals have to be able to walk up to the place where they are killed. Therefore, they have to be treated well. And the very fact that Jews have laws about how to kill animals for food means that they can. Religion is not a good argument, which is why I didn’t bring it up before, because it all depends on what you believe. I personally believe that animals were put here for our use, but I can’t convince anyone that way.
I hate to leave an argument in the middle like this, but it’s getting awfully frustrating, not being able to talk face to face. I have much to say, but it is hard for me to type. Also, the lack of inflection also affects my argument. Sorry. I might be back, but I have no more to say. It really is a case of I think this, and you think that, and we aren’t planning to change our minds. We both have good arguments, and we are both arguing from moral ground. It won’t work, and it will frustrate us all.
I am NOT offended, and I am not leaving in a huff, I just think that there is nothing more to say. I’m sorry I started this. See you other places.
216~ Alright, I understand where you’re coming from. I wasn’t offended either.
I look forward to seeing you on other parts of the blog.
Although you are not going to read (possibly) or reply (probably) I would like to point out that what I meant by using the grain resources to feed humans directly instead of cows to then be butchered and then fed to humans is that when one sees the huge number of corn and soybean fields that yield, I don’t know, tons of food, and the fact that most of that is being fed to cows who are then raised for meat, it becomes apparent that meat is not an efficient food source. The number of bushels of grain fed to a cow to produce one pound of meat is huge. Many more people could be fed with the grain in it’s original form. That’s all.
No, we as humans do not need the protein from animals, one can get enough from a plant based diet.
Specifically, 90% energy is lost passing through every trophic level. So cows get 10 % of the energy the plants store, and we get 1% of the energy the plants stored (through the cows). So by eating grain or grass or what have you, about ten times the energy is saved.
216- “do nothing with their life”?? I personally think that if something can enjoy itself, it is doing something that should not be interrupted so that we can eat it. Furthermore, on the practical side of things, grain can be shipped to other nations more easily that meat. And when cows are slaughtered, they are frightened and hurt. Grain (hopefully) does not feel anything while being harvested.
I came back. I like arguing. But only for a little bit. I’m disagreeing with almost EVERYONE today. It’s fun.
On the subject of protein (because everything else is unarguable, as we are coming from totally different opinions on what animals are here for – and that’s OK, but it makes counterarguments difficult), I would like to make a point. I have a friend who must eat meat at least twice a day (poor thing, but that is because of religious reasons that I won’t go into, but they mean she can’t eat chocolate a lot of the time. *sniff*), and she can eat only a limited amount of fruits and veggies. Just saying. Leaving again. I will probably be back. I need therapy for this addiction to disagreeing.
I made Ratatouille last night and my entire family complained that it didn’t have any meat. It’s hard to be the only vegetarian around here, because there isn’t any space to grow veggies. How does being an Orthodox Jew force one to eat meat twice a day?
220- I’m really confused. At camp we had to read through the entire torah portion on food, keeping kosher, etc., and I saw nothing that said eating meat twice a day was mandatory. However, your friend probably knows more about it then me, since I’m conservative. I’m still confused though.
224- Oh, I’m sorry! I didn’t mean that she had to eat meat because of religious reasons, I meant that she is a poor thing because of religious reasons. She can’t eat chocolate most of the time, and she absolutely LOVES Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups. (And the waiting-to-eat-dairy-after-meat was the thing I didn’t want to go into here.)
223- My brother is the only one in our family who regularly bemoans lack of meat in a dish. It’s a bit of a bum that you put in that effort and they complained.
So they might make a couple of my friends stop being vegeterian. A couple are bulimics and obviously don’t want to tell the doctors about it, so the doctor is going to blame their lack of protien on their vegeterianism. Of course, people like me, you /can/ actually blame my unhealthiness on my vegeterianism, but still. I don’t want to be forced to eat meat, which is why I wiggle out of all my physicals. But tough luck for them. I don’t really think it’s fair, though. Can’t they just take, protein tablets or something?
thats so sick…throwing up food has nothing to do with being vegetarian….its actually better for you….it must really stink to not be able to chose how you eat
I agree. People should dbe able to pick and choose whatever they want to eat, and leave others to decide for themselves. I have friends who think I do not get enough protein and are constantly saying “I need to have you over the next time we have steak” and things like that. I do not think I would like steak. I don’t really like meat in large quantities (except for samoln. mmmm.). A few slices of corned beef or salami and maybe a hotdog or meatballs now and again is good, but I do not feel the need to eat steak, and I think people should be allowed to eat whatever they want (as long as they don’t have any eating disorders or dietary problems)
I have no real problem with vegetarians, truly, unless you make it into almost a religion. Then I have serious problems with it (you don’t know what I’m talking about? Count yourself lucky). You don’t want to eat meat? The thought of eating a once-living being distresses you? Fine, I don’t care. It is amusing to poke fun at it, though. But it’s not something I would debate passionately.
And with that I leave this thread for good. Really.
Beevs~ What are you eating (or not eating) in your vegetarian diet that’s making you unhealthy? Being vegetarian should have no adverse affects on one’s health.
At the supermarket, I found the most awesome vegetable in existence. It is called Romanesco Broccoli, and it’s made of a spiral, and the little bumps that make up that spiral are made of spirals, and those little spirals are made of mini spirals! I tried to put it as my avatar–I hope you can see it.
I have to convince my mother that being vegetarian is not unhealthy. She does not seem to have researched much, so I can probably do it, but then I probably will have to create a new diet for the second time, since the school’s food supplies and home supplies are radically different. Although this might allow me to cook more.
Hi, Jakob,
The Vegetarian Times magazine’s website has a “Vegetarian Starter Kit” that might help. It has tips on creating diets for people of different ages. Also recipes.
I’m not a vegetarian but I’ve been reducing the amount of meat I eat. Which gives me this idea: Maybe your mother will feel better about your diet change if you make a gradual change instead of dropping meat all at once.
I already have made the change; it was a gradual switch at the start of this semester in January.
Thanks a lot! I usually eat yogurt in the morning with a bagel and juice, then fruit salad, cheese, whatever else is available. Dinner is random with the menu. I should probably eat more vegetables and bread.
Do you read Vegetarian Times? I love that magazine. Although I find that the more recent ones have fewer recipes. Almost all of the ones I’ve made from the magazine have been really good.
Also, Keiffer and I calculated that together we have consumed a twenty-foot-high stack of sunflower-seed-butter-and-jelly sandwiches since the beginning of the school year. XD (They’re usually the only vegetarian thing in the school cafeteria.)
JW – Maybe you could appease her by promising to take vitamins or something?
If it’s important to you, you could do some research on nonmeat sources of protein and iron. Calculate how much you need and what you would have to eat to meet the requirements.
Thanks for the new thread!
I just read today that Vegetarians use 160 fewer gallons of oil per year than carnivores, and vegans use 250 fewer gallons of oil per year than carnivores.
Y’mean 2008.2?
I am eating soybeans! Also salsa. I have just come to realize that all the non-choklit food I have in my dorm is vegan. Cookies included. Win.
Aw man. I failed. “Y’mean 2008.2?” Wow. Maybe 2008.1? Or 2008? Or… I dunno…
My friend tried to go vegan for a week to see if she could make it. She lasted two days, but could’ve gone longer. I was surprised when I realized, after discussing the foods she’d eaten, that I had eaten vegetarian that day, and I’ve come to see that I still do, most days. But I don’t see anything wrong with eating meat.
So, I think that while I could go vegetarian, I’d rather stay a compassionate omnivore.
(2, 3) Another victim of late night copy-and-paste thread creation. Thanks for noticing.
THANK YOU FOR THE NEW THREAD!!!
Hmm, I’m hungry now. Maybe I’ll forage before I take a shower…..
.4 my exact philosophy is “compassionate omnivore”! I don’t like meat much but I don’t mind a spot of chicken here and there…
Things I will not eat, however, include veal, lamb, and pork. The first two because that’s particularly awful to consider and the last because I’ve made a habit of it since I was seven or eight.
I admire vegetarians and especially vegans for their dedication. I have a friend who has been a vegetarian for a while, and she tells me she can even taste the chicken stock in soups. There are a lot of foods and snacks that incorporate animal products in ways you wouldn’t expect, and she always has to check for that.
As I think I said on the previous thread, vegetarians and vegans are actually eating the smart way, since it’s more efficient to eat what the animal eats rather than to eat the animal itself. That way you don’t lose the 10%( I think it’s that much) of energy with trophic levels and so on.
7~ Tasting meat flavors in soup stock/etc. It’s true, you can really taste the meat when you’re not used to it, another thing is that eggs become a flavor in themselves, to me they’re a distinct flavor in cakes, cookies, and other foods. Most people don’t think of them as having a specific taste, but they do!
7. Axa
What’s wrong with eating lamb? How is it different from eating chicken?
I’m reading The Omnivore’s Dilemma. I got it ages ago because we were talking about here and I started it but I forgot about it until just now. It’s so interesting!
The definition of “organic” is pretty much completely arbitrary.
On another note, vegemite is delicious.
5- Mhm. I, too, was a victim of this, as you can see by the fact that I only noticed that the year was off.
8- That they do. The eggs, anyway. I’ve not accidentally eaten any meat products, at least to my knowledge. But after being an uberstrict vegan for a few days shy of a year, the egg taste became apparent.
Milk, too. I still can’t stand drinking egg nog, milk, or even hot chocolate with just a hint of creamer. It’s so weird. My egg/dairy intake is limited to the ingredients in choklit, pumpkin pie, mashed potatoes, buttered vegetables, Easy Mac, pizza, and Parmesan cheese. And the occasional cupcake. I still hate cheese on bean tacos, too. I peel off as much as I can when the dining hall offers them.
Sometimes I think that I’m just very picky and neurotic. For instance, I eat nearly everything in even numbers. Exceptions being subs, which require an even number of bites, and large things like plates of angel hair or number nine pasta. Also even number of scoops.
On meat stocks in soups… the only soup I ever have is alphabet soup, which I make myself with noodles and vegetable stock. The proper sort. Some are labeled “vegetable stock” but, upon further inspection, are revealed to have chicken stock as the main ingredient. Swanson’s good, though.
Fritos are vegan. Which is awesome. Lived on those for a while. Also, many of the crappy Wal-Mart brand cookies are. I think I’ve developed a taste for the oatmeal ones. And now I’m rambling. Oh! Oreos. They’re good, too. They’re basically sugar and other chemicals that are bad for you.
.9 yeah I knew someone would ask that…it’s really not literally different. I would do well not to eat any meat if I’m going to pick and choose which ones are more offensive to my emotions/morals for lack of a better word, but the idea of eating baby sheep just makes me sick. I realize how irrational saying that and continuing my poultry habit is, but it’s a mental block or something I guess.
And what exactly is vegemite? What does it taste like? I wonder if stores around here sell it, somehow I doubt it.
I have accidentaly eaten meat since I became a vegitarian. I insisted that something was bacon and my mom insisted it was potatoe, so I ate it. And figured out it was bacon. In my defense it was a dark restraunt. And I had a really sore stomach for the rest of the evening. I was reminded the other day of why I’m vegetarian. My family tradition for Christmas day supper is to have cornish hens. Two years ago I had to stop eating them. I could see their spines and it made me realize I was eating something that had lived and been killed. It looked like death. So eventually I became vegetarian.
7-You’re partially right about the trophic levels. However, it’s actually even scarier than that. After every step in the food chain, only 10% of the energy is transferred to the next step. You don’t lose 10%, you only salvage 10% of the original energy. You lose 90% of the energy at each step. This is why there are so many more herbivores than carnivores.
And, this is a problem with humans eating meat. With our tremendous population growth, there could very well end up being more carnivores than herbivores we are willing to eat. There are already problems with food shortages. This is what the article I mentioned was talking about, how we are not only dramatically increasing our pollution of the planet (livestock being responsible for a shocking 18% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions, plus don’t forget manure and all of those excess “nutrients” that cause the tremendous algae growth in ponds and lakes, which in turn decimate wildlife populations by starving the water of its oxygen) but also are starving people in developing countries.
Just think about it: We could suddenly have ten times the amount of food we now have just by becoming vegetarians. Ten times. We could wipe out world hunger tomorrow.
13~ Amen.
When did ever one start there Diet, If I can call it that?
I don’t eat Red meat, and I haven’t from when I was 5 on. It was my kindergarten new years resolution. I’m now in eighth grade.
I turned vegitarian in grade eight.
14-
15-I’ve been a vegetarian since I was born (my parents are, too). I don’t think people should be discouraged from trying being vegetarian because they weren’t one from the beginning. I think it actually shows quite a bit of willpower for a person to decide to be a vegetarian on their own.
I wish I could be a vegetarian, as thinking about eating animals makes me feel slightly naseous, but meat is just too good. I do keep kosher, though, which makes me feel better about how the animals were killed, etc. I just really like beef, etc. *salivates* I’m such a carnivore… I won’t wear fur or snakeskin or leather or anything though.
My friend is a vegetarian and I have NO IDEA how she does it.
.13 aha! I knew I had it wrong…well then that just makes an even more convincing argument.
13- I like your argument, those are some really great points. I’m trying to write a speech that makes an argumen for organic foods, and I felt that here would be a great place to get some help. Can I post what I have so far here?
Ooo, these threads are fun. Still an omnivore, but I only eat meat with the ASPCA Sticker of Approval on it. Leather yiks me out.
18- once you’re not eating meat it’s no big deal. Although sometimes I miss chicken and bacon and hotdogs.
I wear leather. I’m vegitarian for my own reasons so it doesn’t matter too much to me. I mean sure, there’s a bit of guilt, but whatever.
Could somebody explain what ‘vegemite’ is?
I’m a vegetarian, by the way.
I am a pescetarian (vegetarian except for fish), and have been for almost a year now. However, I eat foods with gelatin in them and wear leather.
About leather… I do feel guilty, and try to avoid it whenever possible, but it is really difficult to avoid it completely. For example, most jeans have a small patch of leather on the waistband in the back. And I have yet to find a good quality pair of dress shoes that isn’t made of leather. I would never wear fur or snakeskin, though.
My mother insists that a) it is impossible to get enough protein and iron while being vegetarian and b) tofu causes cancer. *sigh*
22- Morningstar?
MorningStar isn’t vegan.
I feel bad for eating eggs now, because Clarissa’s food is all vegan and she’s always talking about it. But she won’t let me stop drinking milk, she says I’ll kill myself going vegan.
I’m a vegetarian…but I would die if i didn’t have dairy. None of my family is vegetarian; I turned vegetarian when I was 3 and I read Charlotte’s Web. I was so moved! *sobs* Well, I’m still vegetarian, but the driving force for me isn’t Charlotte’s Web.
If your parents are a little stuborn, the book ‘I’m a Vegetarian’ offers numerous valid arguments for the fact that Vegetarianism/Veganism is quite safe.
.28 – Or, you could always offer to cook your own food. I’ve found that is extremely effective.
13- Oh, man! Overpopulation… let us all become voluntary human extinctionists! Who are also vegetarians.
18/22- What Kagy said. I usually forget that people eat meat and such until I see them eating it, at which point I just find it weird and repulsive.
26- Dude, it’s your choice. Also, soymilk. Choklit.
Silly people thinking vegetarians/vegans are all going to die of vegetarianism/veganism. Even misinformed ones are okay. My cousin was a “vegan” for ages, but in the anorexic way. She got stomach ulcers and whatnot. Now she’s an omnivore again. But that lead to most of my family getting the impression that vegans don’t eat anything evar, oh em gee. Alas.
11. Axa
I think a lot lamb isn’t really that young when it’s killed… it’s just called lamb, because otherwise it’s mutton. But I get where your coming from.
Vegemite is concentrated yeast extract. It’s a dark brown paste. It tastes extremely salty and sort of tangy. You eat it on toast or crackers. Most people think it’s gross. I guess it’s sort of an acquired taste.
13. Red-tailed HAWK
Well, really I agree with you about the whole ‘it would solve a lot of problems if we ate less meat’ but just for the sake of argument, I want to point out:
1. By and large, the problem with world hunger isn’t lack of food; it’s lack of means to get food where it’s needed. I mean, probably have enough food to solve world hunger as it is; it’s just that it doesn’t grow everywhere, an it’s hard to distribute it properly.
2. Eating plants may save energy in terms of trophic levels but you’ve got to keep in mind the loss of nutrients in protein and necessary fat and what not. For us healthy people living in the First World it’s not such a big deal because we can choose substitutes but soy and iron supplements aren’t generally available in the poorer parts of the world. (Well soy in some places but that’s not the point).
Really, I totally agree that it’s an enormous waste to produce as much meat for food as we do; it would definitely benefit humans and the environment to be more herbivorish. But we are omnivores (biologically, I mean) and I don’t think it would solve all our problems if tomorrow everyone just stopped eating meat.
I’m a loose vegetarian. I am a strict vegetarian everywhere except Asian Restaurants. No, I don’t know why. I just am.
32- I can understand that. Chicken in Chinese restaurants is one of the foods I miss. And I don’t think I could give up shrimp tempura or sushi (that’s mostly why I’m pescetarian).
I am going to quote Tony Bourdain one more time.
“Vegetarians, and their Hezbollah-like splinter faction, the vegans, are a persistent irritant to any chef worth a damn. To me, life without veal stock, pork fat, sausage, organ meat, demi-glace, or even stinky cheese is a life not worth living. Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for, the pure enjoyment of food. The body, these waterheads imagine, is a temple that should not be polluted by animal protein. It’s healthier, they insist, though every vegetarian waiter I’ve worked with is brought down by any rumor of a cold. Oh, I’ll accommodate them, I’ll rummage around for something to feed them, for a ‘vegetarian plate’, if called on to do so. Fourteen dollars for a few slices of grilled eggplant and zucchini suits my food cost fine.” From Kitchen Confidential, p. 70.
MMM. Zucchini.
I am not a vegetarians, but I respect them, and believe the proper way to coexist with them is not to diss them.
I am, however, against factory farming because it is not only cruel to animals, but bad for the environment and local economies. Our family gets all our meat from a local farmer, as well as vegetables from the local CSA in the summer, spring, and fall. They are a lot tastier than the industrial stuff, and a lot healthier for you too.
34~ You said that before. If you’re going to bash vegetarians and vegans be creative and speak your own ideas. If you can’t do that at least don’t just repeat some quote that you think is properly offensive, find new ones if you must. I for one was sick of that quote the first time you posted it, and my feelings have not changed; I still think it’s obnoxious and that any “self respecting chief worth a damn” would be glad to have the challenge (even though it’s not that hard) to make an interesting, tasteful and wholesome dish without using more “traditional” ingredients.
36 – I completely agree. Discriminating against eating habits is like discriminating against any other thing, like religion or sexual orientation, only more picky.
.37 – Haha, I think you’re totally overreacting. Cliff Eagle has a right to his own opinion and to express it however he likes (even in the form of quotes!). I, for one, have never seen this quote before, and I do read the V&V threads pretty frequently, so it’s not like he’s posted it everywhere as his mantra or something. It is an interesting point of view, even if I don’t agree with it. Militant carnivores are almost as amusing as militant vegetarians. Cliff is only trying to provoke the vegetarians and he is obviously succeeding!
34-Wow, what a closed minded frick-hole. I certainly hope that’s not how you see us. “I’ll accomadate them.” *scoff* Like we’re commiting a terrible guilty pleasure that he’s so generously ignoring by letting us what, not eat meat?
To me, that paragraph was summarized by him saying, “Who do you think you are, vegetarians? Choosing your own lifestyle and asking people to accept you.”
What about people who are vegetarian for their religion? Does that make who they worship the “bane of humanity” or whatever too?
SFDP, didn’t see the rest of the posts.
39-I agree with you. It is an interesting point of view, and I’ve seen people discriminate against meat-eaters. [Sadly,] It’s just as funny to watch.
Did my rant get snipped, GAPAs?
34 – Was that quoted from Anthony Bourdain? *said in disbelief*
* Ding-Ding-Ding* TROLL! Ring the Troll Warning Bell!
…or maybe just a conversation starter. Let’s see.
Before we over-react (too late) let’s look at Cliff’s post. It’s a quote from a book (Kitchen Confidential) by Anthony Bourdain, a “rouge chef”, if you will, who was thrown off the cooking channel due to a constant use of vulgar language. I personally think that his work is fantastic, but it’s easy to see how flammable he is, being less than sensitive, and usually unrestrained. Here’s a step by step analysis of his thoughts.
“Vegetarians, and their Hezbollah-like splinter faction, the vegans, are a persistent irritant to any chef worth a damn.
So, (Bourdain feels) vegetarians are irritant to “professional” chefs, but not anything more
To me, life without veal stock, pork fat, sausage, organ meat, demi-glace, or even stinky cheese is a life not worth living.
He could not live with out meat. Simple.
Vegetarians are the enemy of everything good and decent in the human spirit, and an affront to all I stand for, the pure enjoyment of food.
Bourdain likes his food, no matter where it comes from.
The body, these waterheads imagine, is a temple that should not be polluted by animal protein. It’s healthier, they insist, though every vegetarian waiter I’ve worked with is brought down by any rumor of a cold.
Ok, he gets insulting. His personal experience tells him there’s nothing wrong with eating meat.
Oh, I’ll accommodate them, I’ll rummage around for something to feed them, for a ‘vegetarian plate’, if called on to do so. Fourteen dollars for a few slices of grilled eggplant and zucchini suits my food cost fine.â€
He even likes them! If only to sell expensive dishes to, but even so, he’s perfectly fine coexisting with them.
I see nothing wrong with using quotations; they’re often concise, professional, and well written. Understanding where this comes from is important. He got kicked off the cooking channel. For cursing. He’s not discriminating though, he’s angry that they don’t see his perspective, which is a simple, pure, love of food, in all its forms. I’m guessing that if anything, he’s angry at vegetarians for trying to make him and others feel sorry for eating meat (which I personally see no problem with, as long as it is ethically obtained.) He’s a dodgy figure, being a spokesman for immigrant’s rights and saying one of the worst things he had ever eaten was Chicken McNugget, while contrastingly revealed that he’s done everything from LSD to heroin.
P.S. Oops, it looks like he wasn’t booted from the food network, he left because he wanted more creative control. Sorry, but it really could’ve happened.
Well, apparently my post got snipped. Not surprising- it was heavily laced with an assortment of four letter words.
37, 40, et al.
Its a shame that society has to be ridden with Peta-fanatic, crazy hippie vegetable nazis who constantly scream “inhuman” and “unhealthy”. This may be surprising, but the human body was BUILT to eat meat. There’s nothing unhealthy about eating meat- we’ve been doing it for millenia now. Secondly, eating meat is a good thing, both for the human body, but furthermore, the development of who we are as homo sapiens sapiens. Think about it. The cornerstones of invention, language, culture and civilization were all started by our ancestors, who were discussing them while they were waiting for their meat to cook over the fire. . That meat had to be hunted and killed, as unfair to the animal as it is. Humans are omnivores. That means they eat both plants and animals. Get it into your heads that HUMANS LIKE MEAT. I see it as arrogant that someone wouldn’t eat meat- you are practically turning down a dinner invitation at houses in, say, about 3/4 of the world. It is human that we will gather around meat! I am sick and tired of vegeterrorists screaming and protesting meat packing plants and furriers and basically declaring anything that even slightly harms an animal as “inhumane”. Guess what? Animals will be harmed- and it is only natural. Homo Sapiens Sapiens are consumers- we eat things that eat other beings! Furthermore, the use of the term inhumane is irrelevant when there are people who don’t have anything to eat, period, whether they are carnivores and omnivores. Dammit, there are opressive dictatorships that must be toppled! People are dying of aids and cancer, and we don’t have a cure! It seems to me that there are issues that are far more “inhumane” than the meat industry! Those vegetarian freaks should spend more time helping out people who are dying of aids, or starving people, or people in Kosovo, Chechnya, or Darfur that are going through a freaking genocide right now, rather than trying to take down meat. Bottom line? Humans like meat, and instead of wasting your time boycotting what most of the world has accepted since the beginning of time, why not help somebody who really needs it?
.40/37/34 – Boudain’s condescension is actually remarkably similar to that of a lot of vegetarians, who consider themselves to be morally superior to the carnivorous crowd. That’s what bugs me about
manymost vegetarians: they think their dietary plan is the ‘right’ way to do it, when in reality, it’s just another way to survive.44- SFTDP, didn’t see this one.
Well, obviously, since your resume is much better than tony bourdains, I’ll take your word for it that you know SO much more about food than he does. Tell me, Vendaval, which high-end restaurant, have you been the chef at?
.45 – Sorry for the double post, all!
I agree with this post, for the most part! There are a lot more important problems than some mistreated cows. Once the worlds has adequate food and water supplies and reliable healthcare and education systems, then I think it would be sensible to start looking at animal wellfare etc. But to place animal rights over human rights, seems like some very mixed up priorities.
Something you didn’t address is the health aspect of eating meat. I’m not allowed to link to outside sources, so I can’t provide a lot of evidence here, but most meat these days is pumped full of growth hormones, chemicals, etc etc. Vegetables are as well, I’m not going to lie, but it is more economically feasible to purchase organic veggies/fruits/breads than it is to buy organic meats, in my experience. Seriously, $8/pound for organic trout?
Also, the production of meat is extremely inefficient. It takes a remarkable amount of resources just to produce one hamburger patty. I’m interested in your response to this issue. How do you justify that expenditure of resources when, as you pointed out, there is a lot of the world that lacks basic necessities, such as water, food or safety from warfare?
45 – Let’s analyze this, shall we?
Its a shame that society has to be ridden with Peta-fanatic, crazy hippie vegetable nazis who constantly scream “inhuman†and “unhealthyâ€.
Okay. ‘Crazy hippie vegetable nazis’ is going too far. Those are the MINORITY of vegetarians. The minority, you hear me? That means MOST OF THEM simply think that meat-eating is wrong and are taking a quiet stand against it. A great majority of them aren’t going outside and picketing. I have a friend who’s vegetarian and she just won’t eat meat, she won’t force her beliefs on someone else.
This may be surprising, but the human body was BUILT to eat meat. There’s nothing unhealthy about eating meat- we’ve been doing it for millenia now.
There’s nothing wrong with NOT eating meat.
Secondly, eating meat is a good thing, both for the human body, but furthermore, the development of who we are as homo sapiens sapiens. Think about it. The cornerstones of invention, language, culture and civilization were all started by our ancestors, who were discussing them while they were waiting for their meat to cook over the fire.
That means civilization was started by fire. Think about it. Vegetable stew cooking over a fire would have stimulated language the same way.
That meat had to be hunted and killed, as unfair to the animal as it is.
Oh? So animals are born to be eaten by humans? Is it their destiny or something? *arches one eyebrow*
Humans are omnivores. That means they eat both plants and animals.
It also means they CAN eat both, not that they HAVE to.
Get it into your heads that HUMANS LIKE MEAT.
Some don’t.
I see it as arrogant that someone wouldn’t eat meat- you are practically turning down a dinner invitation at houses in, say, about 3/4 of the world. It is human that we will gather around meat! I am sick and tired of vegeterrorists screaming and protesting meat packing plants and furriers and basically declaring anything that even slightly harms an animal as “inhumaneâ€.
‘Vegeterrorists’? Your stereotyping is hugely insulting to me. And some people LIKE animals.
Guess what? Animals will be harmed- and it is only natural.
Fair point.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are consumers- we eat things that eat other beings!
You just said they were omnivores. Plus, consumers just means that we aren’t plants. But we can EAT just plants.
Furthermore, the use of the term inhumane is irrelevant when there are people who don’t have anything to eat, period, whether they are carnivores and omnivores.
Why bring in world hunger to this? We’re talking about vegetarianism here, not world hunger.
Dammit, there are opressive dictatorships that must be toppled! People are dying of aids and cancer, and we don’t have a cure! It seems to me that there are issues that are far more “inhumane†than the meat industry!
But some people feel more strongly and feel they can actually DO something about the meat industry. Some people feel helpless with those other problems you mentioned.
Those vegetarian freaks should spend more time helping out people who are dying of aids, or starving people, or people in Kosovo, Chechnya, or Darfur that are going through a freaking genocide right now, rather than trying to take down meat.
‘Vegetarian freaks’? Are you just insulting them?
Bottom line? Humans like meat, and instead of wasting your time boycotting what most of the world has accepted since the beginning of time, why not help somebody who really needs it?
Some people think that humans are too arrogant, thinking that humans are far better than animals.
47 – Oh be quiet, Cliff Eagle, and stop being so rude.
I hope nothing I said was offensive or overly rude. I’m quite angry right now, so I shall leave and cool down. *does so*
SFTDP, but “‘Vegeterrorists’? Your stereotyping is hugely insulting to me. And some people LIKE animals.” was NOT supposed to be italicized.
46 – Not all vegetarians are snobs.
47- Cliff Eagle, here’s what you said:
“47. Cliff Eagle | January 3rd, 2009 at 5:41 pm
44- SFTDP, didn’t see this one.
Well, obviously, since your resume is much better than tony bourdains, I’ll take your word for it that you know SO much more about food than he does. Tell me, Vendaval, which high-end restaurant, have you been the chef at?”
Well, thanks for asking, but I’ve never held any executive positions. My resume is quite impressive, I know, thanks again, but I’ve never really seen much in the chef lifestyle.
Honestly though, I’m confused here. You seem to be attacking me and my knowledge of the food industry, but I can’t figure out why. I practically sided with you in the post you reference, 44, and although you could’ve mistaken me for someone else (your comment “didn’t see this one.” makes it seem like you’re plowing through a list), you do refer to me by name, so that can’t be it. You question my credentials as my ability to pass judgment on the food industry, but I can’t find anything in my post to suggest that I know more than Bourdain, the closest I get to that is saying “I personally think that his work is fantastic“. I was simply trying to analyze and explain his writing in a way that would anger the least people, to continue with a civil discussion.
Because on the surface, he is simply insulting and rude, a strategy that is well suited to the jungle of the media today, but not, I feel, to our blog. Please be more considerate in the future with your use of language.
The issues of human and environmental degradation are more closely related than they might appear. Overfishing and pollution of our oceans leads to a declining fishery stock, which drives people dependent on the sea for food into other more questionable trades- Somali pirates.
Ironically, if American farmers would use solely organic means to produce their crops, we would have less product, which would send more to Africa. Crazy Farm Bill.
Our culture consumes too much meat, but that’s not a cause to completely eliminate from our diets- most people still won’t. A gradual shift towards a healthier public diet would be beneficial to all, and possibly allow the relocation of some of that food-energy, because if we all became vegetarians today, it would not all magically go to feed other nations.
50- Not all vegetarians are snobs, but I think they put up with a certain amount of stigma, with can make you jaded, and changing your diet so drastically is usually the effect of a strong moral feeling, whic then divides the world up into right or wrong. It’s also easier to notice vegetarians who are snobs.
I am going to try not to eat meat at all tomorrow, just to see if I can do it. It’s like an experiment, to find out if it would really be so awful to be a vegetarian. I tried this a few years ago with two of my friends – we tried not to eat meat for a whole weekend. None of us managed, because we all forgot about the plan by Saturday. Just to make sure I don’t forget, I shall type out my plan ten times.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
I will not eat any meat on Sunday.
Now, let’s see if I can actually do that.
.50 – Re: “your stereotyping is hugely insulting”
Don’t take yourself so seriously. Certainly, not all vegetarians are snobs but I do think a lot of them (us?) need to get off their high horses. You can defend all of your food choices ’til the cows come home, but, in the end, whether or not you eat meat doesn’t make much of a difference and preaching about it isn’t going to ‘convert’ any of the unenlightened. And, if you are so insulted by being called a ‘veggieterrorist’ or whatever perhaps you should eat some beef.
45- I’m going to try and go though your post as calmly as possible, removing any traces of racial slurs or insults.
“…but the human body was BUILT to eat meat.”/ “Humans are omnivores. That means they eat both plants and animals.”
-First of all, you are contradicting yourself. You say supposedly in the first sentance that humans are made to eat only meat, and then later go on to say that they can eat both plants and meat. The only animals that are BUILT to eat only meat, as far as bodily science is concerned, are carnivores, which humans are not. So technically, if humans did not want to consume meat, they could choose only to eat plants, which many of them have already done. Animals that were BUILT to eat meat would not have this simple choice.
“Get it into your heads that HUMANS LIKE MEAT.”
-Yes, many humans do enjoy meat. But some humans do not. They can’t live with the fact that what they are eating was once a gentle cow or an adorable chicken, and that what they are putting through their digestive systems is something dead, which I think is admirable of them. They choose to live with a more natural diet. And besides, even if eating meat is a natural human craving, many people have been able to curb cravings. What about smoking? Even if some people do like to smoke, they have been able to kick the habit. The same applies to vegetarians and meat. They have simply kicked the habit.
“I am sick and tired of vegetarians protesting meat packing plants and furriers and basically declaring anything that even slightly harms an animal as “inhumaneâ€. Guess what? Animals will be harmed- and it is only natural. ”
-You’re absolutely right. It’s true that human nature is to be destructive and greedy, taking things and killing for their own benefit. And I consider this to be a sad fact of life. I’m sure that someone as competent as yourself would protest to murder if it was someone you cared about with their life on the line? This is what these vegetarians are doing for animals, because they love animals and don’t want to see them get hurt, which they consider to be sick and inhumane. And for good reason!
“I see it as arrogant that someone wouldn’t eat meat”
-You would. However, if it is someone’s personal choice not to eat the dead, then I think that it is only fair that they get their request. This could be turned around exactly the same way if someone were to say to you, “Well, I think that’s it’s rude that you won’t eat this salad, so I won’t let you in to dinner.” That would be equally as arrogant, if not more so. At least vegetarians have a good reason for not eating meat. You have no reason not to eat vegetables, and besides, they’re good for you.
“Homo Sapiens Sapiens are consumers- we eat things that eat other beings! ”
-Sometimes we do. However, if you’re a vegetarian, you eat plants, which as far as I’m concerned don’t eat anything but carbon dioxide, water, nutrients from the soil and sunlight.
48- Better than putting 10-plus pesticides through your system with every bite.
.45 ” Humans like meat, and instead of wasting your time boycotting what most of the world has accepted since the beginning of time, why not help somebody who really needs it?”
Not all humans like meat. Many people are repulsed by the idea of ingetsing the flesh of another animal; would you have them go against their own instinct simply because people have always eaten meat?
What does helping people have to do with vegetarianism? Were I a vegetarian or vegan I would still be perfectly capable of volunteering at a soup kitchen, donating to charity, or participating in a 10k for cancer. Deciding not to eat meat because of poorly regulated slaughter practices does not negate a person’s potential for charitable activity.
Your frustration seems to be the focus on animal cruelty rather than AIDS or cancer and the like. I can understand that, but that’s no reason for people to stop campainhing for decent treatment of animals, nor does it mean that AIDS or cancer are less worthy causes. People just respond to things differently, I suppose. There’s no dictating what people work towards.
as for bourdain he is lulzy and I don’t take anything he says very seriously. chefs are probably naturally disposed against particular customers, and as a lover of food he probably finds the omnivore’s diet much more appealing, fufilling etc. People do what they do, it’s all opinion. His is worth no less than mine.
53 – No! I am not myself a vegetarian! But I have lots of friends who are vegetarians and I respect their decision and would do it myself if chicken wasn’t so tasty.
And I don’t go and preach about anything! I find it insulting that Cliff Eagle thinks a majority of vegetarians go around and try to force someone else to become a vegetarian, because that’s not true for all of them! And that’s the stereotyping I find insulting, not to me, but to all vegetarians.
54 – Wait, what? That last sentence? Please clarify.
I do not impose my food decisions on anybody else. I, as a “vegetarian freak”, simply chose not to eat meat. This is my personal decision (Free will, you know?). Because I have the option not to eat animals and fish, I do not. I seriously believe that I’m harming less creatures this way. Why can you not work to stop genocide while making whatever dietary choices that you want? I’m fairly certain that people who suffer from Celiac disease, or who have decided not to eat MSG, or even avoid fake sugar can try to cure cancer or AIDS without being distracted by their dietary decisions. In my experience, in fact, most vegetarians are incredibly socially conscious.
I would never dream of “converting” anyone to vegetarianism.
.54 – Eh, organic foods are not an option for everyone. They’re not widely available in a lot of grocery stores and they are often twice the price of non-organic options. If you can afford organic meat, good for you, but for someone living on a tight budget, they’ll have to decide for themselves if non-organic meat of questionable origin is something they want to eat. It may be healthier (and cheaper) for them to not eat meat all together.
Re- Everybody
OK. First off- the basic facts of life and the food web. You probably learned this in second grade, but obviously, I need to rehash it to you. A human could eat, lets say a cow. That cow eats grass, and that grass is fed by soil and sun. That means that a human is a consumer. This has been the case, since, well, humans ever existed. I see no reason that vegetarians should have to deviate from who we are as Homo sapiens sapiens. So? We are omnivores, dammit. You were born as an omnivore, your parents were born as omnivores, your grandparents were born as omnivores, etc etc etc. It doesn’t matter if they became vegetarians or vegans, they are omnivores. This is how either God or Evolution intended humans to be. Some people call me a “militant carnivore”. Not true. I am a militant omnivore. On a much wider note, why do we even care about how animals are treated in times like these, when more humans are being mistreated than animals? Oh sure. The vegetable nazis say “Animals are as important as humans”. Guess what, vegeterrorists, that’s crock full of horse crap! We must help our brothers and sisters before we help the animals, whose problems are less frequent and have lesser magnitude than ours. Animals do not threaten other animals with weapons of mass destruction, that if escalated, could result in extinction of the whole world. Animals are not racist enough to start a war with different animals on the ground of race. The economic system of animals is not so low that they are starving to death! Before we can solve the problems of animals, we must help other humans. Then, once we solve the AIDS epidemic, nuclear proliferation, worldwide education and poverty, malnutrition and racism, which is at the root of most of these problems, we can finally start yelling “inhumane”.
.56 – My mistake, then. As a vegetarian, I can tell you that I do not find Cliff Eagle’s ‘stereotyping’ as particularly offensive. Someone always has something nasty to say about vegetarians, and being “hugely offended” is a huge waste of time.
59- Okay… um…my arguments:
1. Can’t we help animals AND people.
2. By giving up meat, we aren’t going all out forceing others to do it too, instead we are making our own small commitment to helping animals.
3. If you want me to help others so bad, what have you done?
4. Shouldn’t this be a personal choice? One that you will never be impacted by.
5. If I’m going to eat Vegetarian who am I hurting? No one. If I’m going to eat meat who am I hurting? Animals.
6. If I walked by you without telling you I was YodaShmoda could you tell I didn’t eat meat? No. So why would it matter?
59 – I’m beginning to think this is a huge waste of time, but whatever.
OK. First off- the basic facts of life and the food web. You probably learned this in second grade, but obviously, I need to rehash it to you.
Being condescending won’t help. Plus, I didn’t attend second grade.
A human could eat, lets say a cow. That cow eats grass, and that grass is fed by soil and sun. That means that a human is a consumer. This has been the case, since, well, humans ever existed. I see no reason that vegetarians should have to deviate from who we are as Homo sapiens sapiens.
So? We are omnivores, dammit. You were born as an omnivore, your parents were born as omnivores, your grandparents were born as omnivores, etc etc etc. It doesn’t matter if they became vegetarians or vegans, they are omnivores. This is how either God or Evolution intended humans to be.
But, again, you can just not eat meat. It won’t hurt you…
Some people call me a “militant carnivoreâ€. Not true. I am a militant omnivore.
‘Militant’ being the operative word.
On a much wider note, why do we even care about how animals are treated in times like these, when more humans are being mistreated than animals?
Some people think animals are just as important as people.
Oh sure. The vegetable nazis say “Animals are as important as humansâ€. Guess what, vegeterrorists, that’s crock full of horse crap!
Are you intending to offend people? Calling people names won’t help your argument any.
We must help our brothers and sisters before we help the animals, whose problems are less frequent and have lesser magnitude than ours.
You can help both people AND animals.
Animals do not threaten other animals with weapons of mass destruction, that if escalated, could result in extinction of the whole world. Animals are not racist enough to start a war with different animals on the ground of race.
You can help both animals and the impoverished people. And how can you help that first bit?
The economic system of animals is not so low that they are starving to death! Before we can solve the problems of animals, we must help other humans.
YOU CAN HELP BOTH AT THE SAME TIME!
Then, once we solve the AIDS epidemic, nuclear proliferation, worldwide education and poverty, malnutrition and racism, which is at the root of most of these problems, we can finally start yelling “inhumaneâ€.
You can’t solve every problem in the world. The world will never be perfect. But you can help.
59-But if as you say, humans are different from animals, then they have the free will. And several people have already pointed out that not all Vegetarians are “Vegeterrorists” as you call. Does being “millitant ominivor” make you any different from the radical vegetarians that you are so against.You can’t accuse other people of forcing their view on you and then force your views on them.
Sometimes being vegetarian is more economical, my mom did it in college, and she’s none the worse. I don’t know if vegetarianism is more healthy, but it’s certainly not less healthy.
In addition, if someone doesn’t like the [i]taste[/i] of meat, (Some of my vegi friends don’t.) they shouldn’t have to eat it. Food should be a pleasureful experience
59-Energy is lost at every step of the food web, as you probably know. ___
__I___I__ Humans
__I_______I__ Cows
__I___________I__ Grain
I________________I Sun
(Or something like this)
This means more grain is needed to feed more cows for humans to eat, than if it is used to be, say, baked into bread to feed people.
64-Whoops, sorry for the double post, but that certainly didn’t work out… XD
It was supposed to be a nice-looking pyramid thing…
But cows don’t have to eat grain. In fact, they’re supposed to eat grass.
Yes, but the ones in factory farms certainly don’t eat grass (acutally, they’re usually fed corn, which is not healthy for them)! And even some so-called “organic” companies aren’t quite as…ethical as they seem to be.
The Omnivore’s Dilemma (a book) is very good.
.62 – I think Cliff Eagle’s point was that it is ridiculous to spend time/energy/money/resources trying to help the animals, when there are still so many humans who aren’t being treated humanely either. Yes, you can help them both at the same time, but I would rather ensure that impoverished families in my neighborhood have clothes for winter, instead of making sure animals are treated humanely. Human lives are far more important than animal lives. I don’t support unnecessary violence to animals, testing of products on animals or anything of that nature, but I’m not going to actively campaign against it while I could be volunteering for Heifer International or marching in a war protest.
Cliff Eagle, what are your feelings on these issues? (quoted from post 48)
Something you didn’t address is the health aspect of eating meat. I’m not allowed to link to outside sources, so I can’t provide a lot of evidence here, but most meat these days is pumped full of growth hormones, chemicals, etc etc. Vegetables are as well, I’m not going to lie, but it is more economically feasible to purchase organic veggies/fruits/breads than it is to buy organic meats, in my experience. How do you feel about that? Does that impact your consumption of meat at all?
Also, the production of meat is extremely inefficient. It takes a remarkable amount of resources just to produce one hamburger patty. I’m interested in your response to this issue. How do you justify that expenditure of resources when, as you pointed out, there is a lot of the world that lacks basic necessities, such as water, food or safety from warfare?
37- well said!
38- making fun of or insulting what people choose to eat is just plain rude. It’s like insulting what a person chooses to wear.
45- I have never met anyone who claims it is “unhealthy” to eat meat. I have only met people who claim the oposite, that not eating meat is unhealthy. I know that meat is the best way to get protein. I felt most of your argument pretty weak. Eating meat is better for the human race because they sat around and talked while it was cooking? I find it silly that that was the only part bolded in your entire argument. Bold something that’s actually strong, not your weakest point. Something tells me you could have come up with a better argument. Don’t call us nazis, we aren’t forcing people into concentration camps. Nor are we eager to create a vast empire. In conclusion, your argumant fell a little short. You can do better. One way to improve would to stop calling us names.
47- Don’t be rude to Vendy. What did he do to you?
49- You haven’t said anyhting rude or offensive, at least that’s the way it apeared to me. You make some good points.
52- It’s easy. Trust me.
53- I know eh? I try to be as discreet as possible about my not eating meat. I do it for my own reasons and I don’t really think I need to justify them to anybody.
54- this sentance made me laugh out lound.”if it is someone’s personal choice not to eat the dead, then I think that it is only fair that they get their request”
59- I will be honest with you. I would consider taking you seriously if you stopped calling people names and acting as though we are stupid. Please grow up. When you do, come back and I’ll be glad to listen. And really, in the long run, is my choice of diet harming you? Last time I checked my stomach wasn’t beating you up…..
63- well said. I was wondering when someone was going to bring up the fact that he’s forcing his views on us while preaching that our views shouldn’t be forced on him. (no one should force their views on anyone)
I believe I have said all I need to say. This is interesting. I am enjoying it. (for once I didn’t start the argument).
68- I think also that there are ways of treating animals much more humanely without giving up meat. I support free-range meat- both because it’s much more humane and also because free range meat tastes better because the animal has less stress. And although it is true that meat can be pumped with hormones, most vegetables are pumped full of hormones too, so there’s no “organic” benefit to making the transfer.
.69 (Kagcomix and everyone else) – Can you please put the names of the people you’re responding to in parentheses or something like that? Especially when you’re responding to a lot of people at once, it makes it a lot easier for others to read.
70 (Cliff) – Vegetables are definitely full of chemicals/hormones as well (although, I would argue less so than meat, but I don’t have any sources for that one). However, if you were to go organic, it would be more economically feasible to buy organic breads/fruits/veggies rather than organic meats which are (IMHO) outrageously expensive.
Also, the production of meat is really inefficient, in terms of resources and time. How do you justify that expenditure of resources and energy and time when there is a lot of the world that lacks basic necessities, such as water, food (of any sort) or safety from warfare?
Cliff Eagle has been repeatedly stating that, as consumers, we have to eat meat. This annoys me as I recently learned this in Bio:
Consumers simply don’t produce their own food (those would be producers). For example, both a deer and a tiger would be consumers, even though deer only eat plants and tigers only eat meat. We’re consumers, too, meaning that we have to consume energy. Plants are producers. Photosynthesis? Producing your own energy? Yeah. That.
That Is All.
I don’t like flame wars!
flame wars?
74- Flame wars are forum arguments where the debate gets so heated that it turns to personal insults, swearing, and other such monstrous behaviour. At least one person, possibly more, has been banned from the ‘Blog for doing just that. However, that was on an old Religions thread. I couldn’t imagine how it could happen here.
75 – Have you read the past forty or so posts??? It’s starting to emerge here.
71(Zallie)- It’s true. Plus organic meat is pretty hard to find (where I live) while Organic Vege’s are everywhere.
73/5( Piggy and the Man For Aiou) I think the majority of us are trying to keep our tone and meaness down. I can’t speak for everyone, but everything I write I think isn’t horribe or mean. Sorry if it is anyone. Tell me and I’ll stop.
(75) Piggy: One person was banned from the blog for a week. Nobody has ever been permanently banned from MuseBlog, and with a little common sense and courtesy, nobody ever will be.
.76 (Kokonilly) – Haha, this is definitely not a flamewar, don’t worry.
.77 (YodaShmoda) – Thank you!
78- Well, he took it as a basic death sentence, in regards to MB. In any case, he basically banned himself.
76- No, I haven’t read the posts. Someone on the AE thread said they were vegetarian, so I came here to investigate, but then SBF asked what a flame war was, so I answered. And now I’m gone. *fwooshes cape and disappears into darkness*
71-(zallie) i read somewhere that it takes the same amount of resources to produce 24 pb&j sandwhitches as 6 hamburgers.
we had tese really good ginger vegetable and rice patties for dinner.
i think ther is a reason why people tend to see vegetarians as stubborn is many vegetarioans ARE. they have to be stubborn and not let lunchladies who say you need your protein shove “chicken” nuggets down their throahts. they have to control there cravings for meat. this takes willpower.and they have to put extra time and money into getting alternatives, wheather it be tofu, peanuts or cheese. my sister is a vegiterian (i think it might be because she ate her lifetime quota of chicken nuggets by the age of 7) and she used to make huge deals about the rest of us eating meat, but we learned not to ea it around her. i dont really like red meat so it wasnt much of a prolem and she dosent care if we eat it when we have people over or at restraunts, so i eat meat for lunch, as a snack or when she’s somewhere else.
.81 (Marf) – Huh, I hadn’t heard that one. The number of sandwiches seems sort of low, but I think peanut butter is actually a product that takes a moderately large amount of resources to produce, so that could be right. Interesting. Thanks!
I don’t think being a vegetarian takes a particularly large amount of willpower, though. Maybe for some people?
81-(MARF) That would make a lot of sence. It also makes a lot of sence because of a lot of us are giving up meat to stand up for what we belive in. If your gonna do somthing that drastic then you’re going to have a lot of will power and stubborness.
if you are going to reduce that number it would be 4 PB&J’s for every hamburger. Hm….
Somebody said something about vegetarians being associated with PETA?
Em, no. Not me. Not most of the vegetarians I know. Maybe they’re good for converting vegetarians, but they’re not realistic at all, and there have been numerous scandals about them beating up animals because they couldn’t find one already beat up by a hunter or something. And there have been many reports of meat cartels being the same people who run organic food and vegan substitute companies.
84 – That’s weird. And, yes, I know vegetarians who do not support PETA. They’re not directly related.
You know, there’s a PETA group in a college that stands for People Eat Tasty Animals?
85- Yes. They got sued by the actual PETA because of their domain name, peta. org. Which has been delinkified.
If you search People Eat Tasty Animals, you will see their site, as well as some hate mail. Wow, get a life, those who sent hate mail.
45~ I will not shy away from saying that I find this post incredibly insulting. However, I will sidestep the inevitable snippage that would occur if I voiced my thoughts using the vocabulary that is flying around my head at the moment.
I think the most infuriating part of your post is the last part; “Humans like meat, and instead of wasting your time boycotting what most of the world has accepted since the beginning of time, why not help somebody who really needs it?”
I do not think this is the case. “Humans like meat.” Humans are addicted to fat, salt and grease that is found in meat products. In a primitive lifestyle I will agree that the incredible amount of calories needed to sustain daily life was most easily obtained by eating meat products. That’s fine, just fine. However, this is the 21st century, we simply DO NOT NEED to eat meat for any reason that as a culture and a world we are addicted, yes, addicted to it. There is no other reason to eat it.
“Instead of wasting your time boycotting what most of the world has accepted since the beginning of time,”
The beginning of time? Sure, that’s cute, and I already addressed this above. In the world in which you and I live at this moment there is no reason at all for either of us to eat meat. I don’t. You do. Why do you? Because you like the way it tastes. Because “everybody does it.” Are these sound reasons? I’m not your mother, I won’t ask you if you’d jump off a cliff if everyone else did, I just ask you to seriously consider if this is a sound reason to continue this style of eating. If you think it’s sufficient, I will say no more.
“Why not help someone who really needs it?”
There are those of us who do believe that by making environmentally conscious eating and lifestyle choices creates a positive impact in our communities and on our planet. Although if everyone stopped eating meat tomorrow it would not immediately stop world hunger and violence, I do believe that in time positive signs would become apparent. I believe that being vegetarian, and especially vegan, is a very real way of changing the world for the better and helping all people.
I find it hard to believe that anyone who is concerned for the health of their planet and is willing to go against the grain of what is “accepted” to try to create a better world could be accused of not being compassionate or described as wasting their time and refusing to help people who are truly in need.
In my own experience the people that have made the decision to be vegetarian or vegan after serious thought and consideration are often some of the most accepting, compassionate and helpful people around. They have made the decision to change their lifestyle in an effort to do what they feel will help the world at large, even if not in a way that will earn them great renown or praise; they deal with scorn and insults from people who they do not try to influence, but who they will explain themselves to when given the chance.
So no, I don’t agree with what you say. I feel that many members of the vegetarian community, although not all, are, in their own way, trying to find a way to help not only those in need, but all people and life everywhere.
87- Well said. Great closing. Wow I feel like I’m back in English class.
88~ Thanks. Back in English class? Hmm, wow. What’s it like? I’ve never been….. (I’m homeschooled.
Couldn’t help that one.)
88- It involves: Vocab book reveiws (too easy) Book Reports. Essay revising (what I did with you) Spelling, CREATIVE WRITING, reading for homework, and grammer bytes. It’s pretty cool. Back to Vegetarian stuff:
In sixth grade we had a debate in English about Vegetarinism. It was what is above but a bit different. The kid arguing against wasn’t creative enough to think of “Vegetarianism Natzi” and because it was live there were reactions like “See here!” (not really more like: “HEY!!!!) or “I don’t get it.” The kid arguing against won, because the kid arguing for didn’t bring his notes so all he was really able to remember was that people don’t need to eat meat to survive and that she didn’t like meat.
I’m turning into a vegetarian against my will! My husband and I both like meat but he’s incredibly grossed out by it in its raw form. And I’m grossed out by how inhumanely most conventionally raised animals are treated — and priced out of buying the (usually expensive) humanely raised meat.
Alas, I must go now and make some green beens for dinner. Which I’ll eat with some cheese, Which I’ll feel a little sad about too since I’m guessing the life of the dairy cows isn’t top-notch either.
bye!
(81)MARF-I don’t even consider chicken nuggets meat anyway.
(87) Midnight Fiddler-You have many good arguments, but I would have to disagree with you on one point.
I don’t believe humans are “addicted to meat”. When I eat a nice, juicy hamburger, I don’t just eat salt and fat and calories. (On a side note, believing food is only the sum of its parts is an idea that Micheal Pollan disagrees with in In Defense of Food, which is definitely worth reading.) I taste the spices, the broth, the savory flavor of the meat. I am content because I know that the my hamburger is from the same cow, who lived a very good life, and was raised by someone I know. In short, I eat meat because it’s tasty.
Of course, I know some people don’t like meat. I know many people don’t have the advantages I have. I live in a small Iowa town with ready access to plenty of organic and local products. It would be nice if everybody had those things, but I know they don’t.
But I believe there are better ways to change the world then giving up meat.
91~ Being a vegetarian isn’t that bad, you know! Green beans are lovely, and they’re best when not overcooked, they should be bright green with a tiny bit of crunch for the best flavor. Try dipping in various things like salad dressings or mayonnaise. Just plain with butter and some salt is really good too though…..yummmm. My family often will steam some green beans without snapping the ends off first (do wash them though!) and then put them in a big bowl in the center of the table with various dips around and we attack it with fingers, less dishes, tasty and- perhaps best of all- you get to eat with your fingers! Great. Now I’ve made myself hungry.
92~ I’m glad that you have access to local, organic, humanely treated meat, dairy products and (I’m assuming) produce. I truly am glad that it’s possible where you live, I wish that was the case more often in this world.
I do not think that deciding not to eat meat is the only way to change the world, or even the best or “right” way. I’m just saying that there are those who think that it is a good contribution to the world at large and that it can help create a better life for all of us.
There are many ways in which to contribute, and all of these together can make up a much stronger force of change for the better.
Midnight Fiddler (93): Yeah, I know, being a vegetarian wouldn’t be a catastrophe at all. And the green beans turned out delicious — though sort of the opposite of your recipe. I sauteed some chopped onions in olive oil first and then added some dried savory and then the beans and some salt. I added a little water too. Then it got all nice and brown on the bottom and I stirred it up and kept adding water and stirring occasionally until the beans got limp. When they were done I spooned some onto my plate and added some squirts of lemon juice and some more salt because I can never get enough salt. Then I ate it. It was good!
94~ Well, there’s always time for more green beans, and eventually you can get around to trying them when they’re bright and crisp.
Ooooo I love green beans. Anyway… anyhow… somthing about them… they are soooo good. Durning the summer we have a huge mountain of greenbeans in our wild garden. I hide behind them with a book and eat. Once I run out in one area I roll over till I find a new one. Everyone but my sister agrees that fresh off the vine is the best.
I like raw green beans too. In my much much younger days (preteen), I would snack on them at the supermarket while my mom did the shopping. Strictly speaking I guess I was shoplifting green beans, though no one ever said anything about it.
Has anyone ever eaten a tomato right off the vine like an apple? They’re really tasty that way.
Green Beans are my least favorite vegetable, no matter how they’re cooked. Exept maybe in Boca Loaf. Boca Loaf rules.
98~ i adore tomatoes in any form! While no particular time comes to mind I’ve eaten very fresh tomatoes (the large kind) that were picked at least a few hours before they came into my presence. I’ve eaten chery tomatoes right off the vine….yummmm.
If sunshine had a flavor it would be a really goo home grown tomato.
Ooh, this reminds me of a song! Has anyone else here heard the song “Homegrown Tomatoes”? Google “‘homegrown tomatoes’ song” and click on the first link.
100- I like that. “If sunshine had a flavor it would be a really goo(d) home grown tomato” It’s true. It would be.
101~ Oops, I meant good…..
If sunshine had a flavor it would be sort of fizzy and light, and a little bit sweet with a sort of pink-ness to it. A pink taste, I mean..Can’t explain it. Maybe I’m synaesthetic. On the topic, moonlight should taste like corn and salt and have the texture of cake.
In response to 11 (and yes, I have been lurking here for quite a while until I decided no one was going to answer), Vegemite is a sort of spread, kind of like Marmite, but made with vegetables. It’s good with pretty much anything except raw onions and broccoli.
103- Now that I think of it… sunshine would just look like tomatoes. and grow like tomatoes. It would taste warm even when frozen and buttery but a sweet buttery. Mm! I know. If you’ve ever had sweedish apple pie it would taste like the topping of that! Moonlight would taste like sugar, wrapped in a waffle cone. Or maybe a waffle cone sprinkled with sugar. And then it’s texture would be really smoothe.
Everyone at my school is suddenly going vegetarian. Like, everyone. It’s awesome/annoying.
I had a kind of ToFurky roast thing, except it really wasn’t that brand name. It was stuffed with squash, mushrooms and something else crazy. I hate squash and mushrooms, but it tasted really good put together.
Has anyone seen what happens when ToFurkey is left unwrapped in the fridge for a few days? It’s really, really gross, but I guess raw meat treated in the same way would be even worse.
In Asia they have all kinds of weird ways to imitate meat, like stuffing a crab shell with a mixture of peanut butter and ground-up beans.
So speaking of tomatoes. In my opinion the best way to eat a tomato is: a) in slices in grilled cheese or b) like an apple, possibly with a sort of sauce.
What is the big difference between a vegetarian and a non-vegetarian, one might ask, and why must they be so offended by the other’s culinary decisions? One chooses to eat the deceased, the other does not. If one develops a keen distaste for corpses, the other should celebrate the new abundance of consumables en finds so delectable. The urge to validate one’s own decisions by invalidating any opposing view may be strong but is best suppressed.
In all honesty, can anyone say the difference between a hamburger and a veggie burger is so immense we cannot maintain friendly relationships with those who consume the opposite of our own? They’re both patties, one of flesh and one of vegetable matter.
Should the meat-eater, offended by the select few vegetarians who attempt to force their food choices on others, force en’s food choices on innocent bystanders? And should en defend en’s belief that meat is central to human life by simultaneously claiming humans are less savage than the other savages and supporting a return to the primitive lifestyle observed by our distant ancestors? And should we blindly follow tradition?
Humans will never solve all of their problems. They bring them on themselves continuously. Is there anything wrong with trying to prevent the unnecessary suffering of other animals as caused by humans? Should the other animals suffer indefinitely because humans can’t stay out of trouble? There will never be an ideal time during which we have nothing else on our minds besides inhumane treatment of other animals. Being a vegetarian isn’t so time-consuming that I cannot do everything I can to try to end human suffering. Becoming a vegetarian and working to end the suffering of other animals is frequently an indication of a very kind-hearted, generous, caring person who is willing to do anything they can to help any number of causes, and we shouldn’t discourage any kind of compassionate feelings.
In summary, we ought to celebrate diversity and ignore those who are so self-absorbed they feel everyone simply must lead the same life they lead.
91-Awesome! Let us know how you do! Oh, and yes, there is that with dairy. But then again, if nobody supported free-range eggs and organic milk, why would farmers even bother to produce any? Unless the whole world goes vegan, I think some people who can’t stand to give up meat or dairy but who are willing to buy organic/humane products should be encouraged to do so. After all, if we were all vegans, there wouldn’t be any farm animals!
108- I just killed myself laughing at the opening of your post.
108~ Excellently put.
108- Everything you said was true… other than the fact that Vegetarians and Ombnivores can’t get along. I’m one of two vegetarians in my school of 1283 if I couldn’t get along with the meat eaters I would have had a mental breakdown by now.
108
Should the meat-eater, offended by the select few vegetarians who attempt to force their food choices on others, force en’s food choices on innocent bystanders? And should en defend en’s belief that meat is central to human life by simultaneously claiming humans are less savage than the other savages and supporting a return to the primitive lifestyle observed by our distant ancestors? And should we blindly follow tradition?
Ok, mf, lets cut the bull here. You know you are referring to me, so why don’t you go out and say it to my face, rather than hinting at me when everyone knows who you are talking about.
I think it’s legitimate to depersonalize a debate by addressing arguments rather than personalities. In fact, I’m not sure what is gained by doing it the other way around.
.108 – To be perfectly honest, I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Becoming a vegetarian and working to end the suffering of other animals is frequently an indication of a very kind-hearted, generous, caring person who is willing to do anything they can to help any number of causes, and we shouldn’t discourage any kind of compassionate feelings.
This, in particular. I don’t follow your logic at all. I know you said ‘frequently’ and not ‘always’ but I don’t believe that being a vegetarian makes a person more ” kind-hearted, generous, [and] caring” than someone who eats meat. I feel like your second point (that vegetarians are often activists, “willing to do anything they can to help any number of causes”) is slightly more realistic, but I think it’s more likely that activists choose to be vegetarian rather than vegetarians are automatically activists.
111~ I think he was just asking why it had to be such a problem for some people.
112~ I agreed with that post, but I did not write it. Red-tailed HAWK did, I wrote post 87.
*suddenly remembers about this thread* I’m back.
108 – Hear, hear!
It’s actually really stupid to debate something like this. Cliff Eagle, everybody else, we all have our separate opinions. None of us is going to change another’s opinion, so why even try? I mean, really. Think about it.
My Opinion:
Vegetarians shouldn’t be treated unfairly. They should have our own opinions, and so should the vegans and the pescetarians (sp?) or whoever else is out there, including omnivores. Leave everybody alone, and everybody’s happy. See?
But whatever, you can continue debating this. I’ll just check here a lot less often than before and I will give a little input from time to time.
And PLEASE don’t criticize this heavily. I have repeatedly stated here that this is my OPINION, not that I want you to think.
India, any one?
112- get over yourself. This debate isn’t specifiaclly about you, Cliff Eagle, it is about the different views that have been expressed. It’s better when it’s not so personal because then people don’t feel the need to take personal shots. Get over yourself, grow up and cut out the name calling. It makes you look childish.
115- “MF” is a short form for a rather offensive term that would be snipped had Cliff Eagle expressed it in full. He was not refering to you. It caught me a little off guard too.
116- I agree.
118 – OH! I never thought of the MF he said that way.
That’s quite rude, Cliff.
Neither did we. I guess the GAPAs will have to be more vigilant.
Yes, possibly.
Oh my! I express disdain for vulgar language when used improperly.
118- No. I meant midnight fiddler. I apologize for the confusion and if i offended anyone, but I will retain that I meant fiddler, who you will find that I often confuse with RTH.
123 – Oh. Well then, that’s fine.
Hello! I’m a veggiematerian and I have a warning for all you soy-eaters under 18. This may not apply to every, but it’s best to safe, right? Make sure that you aren’t eating more than about 8 times a month. Having too much could make your body speed up. For instance, a 12 year old (that eats too much soy)’s bone age could be 15. Or slow them down. A 10 year old’s bone age could be 7. And then these hypothical children would be experiencing things that people of that age go through.
So…drink lotsa hemp milk, okay?
Crab. I miss it. Which means everybody has to rub it in my face.
Top Five Thing I Can’t Eat That I Want To
1) Crab and any other crab related food (crab rangoon, crab dip, etc.)
2) Barbecue ribs
3) Subway
4) Chicken nuggets
5) Shrimp
Yeah, not eating meat. I guess my view is that it doesn’t really affect the amount of animals killed if, I am a vegetarian. However, it’s different with pets such as cats and dogs. Yeah, I believe It’s possible. Unfortunately that’s off topic.
Anyway, Indianans eat meat on 17 of their 21 meals a week. Not too many vegetarians.
118 (& related posts)~ If he’d meant that I would assume that using his grasp of the English language he would have said “mfer” or something like that. I realize that my MB name can be taken wrong, and that one of the common abbreviations is, well, MF.
123~ Ah, well let me say that I am not in any way attacking you. I respect you as a person and I enjoy reading your comments on this blog although I do not always agree with you. I will not attack you directly.
125~ I’m a little more concerned about all the hormones they pump into meat and dairy (especially dairy). I’m concerned about girls getting their period at age 9 and boys with breasts so large that they really should be wearing bras.
Honestly, where did you hear that?
There’s lots of estrogen in soy products, which is why my GT teacher can’t eat it. If you have a high hormonal level, you shouldn’t be eating soy. I don’t, so it’s okay. But Davey Havok might be needing a boob job soon…
123- oooh. sorry. I probably misinterpreted that sentance. My sincerest apolagies.
126- my top five is: 1) Gravy
2)Marshmallows
3) Breaded chicken
4) Hot dogs
5) all types of asian food involving meat.
128- yeeeah. sorry bout that. I figured, since it wasn’t capitalized (which I always see as Midnight Fiddler)….
130~ That’s okay.
Dude, i’m a total vegetarian and idk if thats true with me, but i hope so n’ im all for it!!!
132- *pies* I am thinking you are new?
133- The term should be I think that you are new?
134- I’m thinking that both work.
135-I was thinking of saying that, but then you did. *pies*
I think the debate over whether eggs are vegetarian is kind of like the debate over abortion. When does an egg count as an animal? vs. When does a fetus count as a human? Some people think that the second you become pregnant, you harbor a human and therefor abortion is murder, but not many vegetarians consider that this theory might apply to eggs too. They aren’t fertelized, but for some, wouldn’t eating eggs count as eating animals?
I’m curious to hear opinions on this.
134- The rules of language are deflected off the solidity of my soul.
136- Eating unfertilized eggs is fine. It’s like a woman’s menstrual cycle (is it okay that I use this comparason). The egg that leaves a woman’s body each month is not a child, and in my mind an unfertilized egg from any animal is not a child.
What? How has this thread not been visited? *Glares at the VVVV thread non-visitors*
138- These threads only get attention if somebody says something outrageous. So here goes.
hay guess what everyone! Vegetarians are the anti-christ! it sez so in the bible-
“woe unto ye and them that shall partaketh of the tofu are born from satan teh devil and are an abominations to meh!”
John 2009:7
Just kidding.
139~ I laughed at that. Very nice, but I must say that the usage of the word “teh” marked it as your writing….
Actually, some people do use the bible as a reason that people should eat meat. Of course, there are people who use the bible to say we shouldn’t eat meat, so go figure.
I personally see give more weight to the latter, since it’s not just in the translation.
Where they say “meat” in the bible they usually mean “bread”.
Those who say the bible wants us to be vegetarian point to the part in Genesis where God provides ‘herbs” for our sustenance.
I say lay off the bible thumping as far as your food choices go and live an entire lifestyle that you feel matches up with what you believe will make your God happy. If it means not eating meat because that’s a way of expressing compassion and/or mercy for His/Her creation, so be it. If you don’t look at it that way, so be it, I’m not going to tell you what to believe as far as religion, and I’m not going to tell you what you should eat.
I’ll explain why I think something, but I won’t foist my opinions on anyone else.
And now I’ve probably gone and killed this thread again. *sigh*
140- the bible can thump for anything.
So, I think we all know that I am generally not outraged at meat eaters. In my newspaper there is a comic called “Betty”. It’s about a woman, her friends and her family. Right now her son is going vegetarian. I wouldn’t mind (I mean, really, who cares?) but they’re putting a negative spin on it. “A boy doesn’t become vegetarian out of the blue, I suspect the influence of a girl”. What????? Excuse me? Is there some reason a boy can’t just up and decide to become vegitarian? I guess there must be. It just annoyed me. There was another strip (same comic) where the mother served the son a lentil and couscous dish. He replied “Not only does vegetarian food not look like food, it doesn’t sound like food”. I’m just annoyed. I mean: I have been eating couscous forever, even before I was vegetarian. I don’t know what the author is trying to do but I find it is frustrating me. And we know I don’t generally get so mad about vegetarian haters.
142 – That’s horrible. I would get mad, too, but I don’t know what the comic is.
i have been a vegetarian since that article in the january 2007 issue of muse. Whenever i tell people that i am a vegetarian, they give me this wierd look and say, “you don’t eat MEAT???” It drives me nuts everyone but my muse- reading friends do this.
Vegetarians completely rock, okay! I hate meat…
after i posted i went backa and read every post, and i have to say that i am having a great time reading cliff eagles. They are so unbelievably absurd that they would be hilarious if he didn’t actually believe these things. I won’t try to argue because i would be too angry and start making rude comments, but “Peta fanatic crazy hippie vegetable nazis?” SERIOUSLY???HOW OLD ARE YOU????? sorry. i really am trying to be nice, but i feel a bit insulted.
142- I would write a letter to the paper (the editor), the cartoonist, and en’s syndicate. Explain that you feel misrepresented and upset.
139- That is pure troll. Impressive.
140- I though that there was a story in the Bible where some men came to a city, and God told them to just eat plants so they became strong enough to win a battle. But I could be misremembering, and the point of the story could have been that it was amazing they survived in just plants. Like Odysseus eating the Hemlock.
Anyways, I agree: the Bible can thump for anything.
145- Hello! I don’t think that we’ve met.
If you read all of the posts, you would know that: Cliff Eagle made some very important points, he likes to raise a ruckus, and it all ended pretty civilly.
On an unrelated note, if you polished up your capitalization and writing style your posts would be easier to understand, and more convincing.
…unless you’ve got a soul so solid it reflects grammar.
sorry. i was really mad when i wrote that. the bible really can be manipulated to support anyones opinion, which is why i don’t think that it is a good idea to use it in argument. it can be turned against you. [Snip! Off-blog contact information is not allowed. –Admin.]
Your totally right…Cliff Eagle was being a tad bit (coughcoughcoughalotcoughcough) LOUD…..and by the way vendvadal, i could read her post just fine…..
I have to agree with nolagirl7 about cliff eagle being rude and acting a little younger than I think he is. “Peta-Fanatic crazy hippie vegetable nazis” is a little odd. But, he has his rights… (I guess.) Just calm down a little Cliff eagle!
145- So did I, at first. After a while, everyone gets their backsides burnt up a little, but nobody got roasted enough that we all hate each other. Am I right?
By the way, I don’t believe we’ve met. A pleasure, I’m sure. The name’s Aggie the Fish. Welcome to the blog. *pies*
148- Same to you as nola. *pies*
I recently found out that if I decided to be a vegetarian but craved meat every once in a while, tofu smothered in BBQ sauce would be sufficient for me.
Kind of random.
…
I just don’t feel… satisfied eating just vegetables. It needs to be a full meal for me.
149 and 146- iIam sort of new to museblog, though i have subscribed since i was six. Aggie is right about not hating each other. The two of us will just have to refrain from speaking directly to each other.
151- I still eat most shellfish (even though it is not kosher) and all dairy, and even for a little while after i became a vegetarian i ate fish. I could never be a vegan, but being part vegetarian is so easy.
152- Don’t worry, eventually you’ll forget all about it. I used to fight all the time (albeit in a tearful, not-quite-fighting, “you’re entitled to your opinion but you’re being horribly offensive sob sob let’s stop talking about it” sort of way) with Fiddler and Dancergirl, the former of which is now my “unofficial twin” and the latter of which was a good friend until she mysteriously vanished.
well even if i am a bit offended it is great to be able to have a good debate. whenever i get into one with anyone else, they just say, “It’s dumb. why go without hot dogs?”
First of all, welcome to the blog nolagirl7! *pies* I hiope you enjoy your time here.
GAPAs, there’s a (non linkified) reference to off-blog chatting in post 147. nolagirl7 is new, so I assume she doesn’t know about how links are discouraged, especially ones that lead to sites off blog that share personal information. This is not to be mean or a tattletale, it’s just there and it’s against the rules, since no one else has said anything I thought I would.
153~ Oh yes, I remember that. It was after the first big kokonventions with the email fiasco, right? Or was there more before then, I don’t recall?
154~ Because hot dogs are gross!
(155) Thanks, that one slipped us by. We’ve already snipped several references to the same site, but we caught those in the moderation queue.
156~ Okay, thanks.
154–I’m far from being a vegetarian, and I don’t even like hot dogs….. *shudder*
145- Another day in the life of the blog’s resident carnivore.
158 – Ergh, I hate hot dogs. They’re positively revolting.
A many summers ago I subsisted on soy hot dogs. It was dreadful, and I refuse to eat them to this day. I generally like “LightLife” products, but their imitation hot dogs (smart dogs, they’re called) are gross. just a warning, if you ever find yourself confronted with them.
161-Hot dogs often seem as if they are in some sort of plastic sleeve that is intended for removal before consumption. I think morningstar’s soy dogs are a bit better than smart dogs, though I haven’t directly compared them…
162~ They are better, much better. The only problem is they aren’t vegan.
I usually opt for the Boca bratwurst, because they have more flavor than hot dogs and are fairly common. The Yves bratwurst are okay flavor (not the greatest, but okay) but an odd texture. I don’t really like their products that much. Boca is good for the brats, hamburgers and such, LightLife is good for Smart Bacon, Gimmie Lean (sausage), and there’s another brand that makes good Chicken Nuggets, but I can’t remember the name. They also make Spinach nuggets that are pretty good. Maybe that’s MorningStar, but I don’t remember!
Tofuti makes good sour crea amd cream cheese, but NEVER try their cheese slices, they taste like a combination of plywood and sock lint. Eew! Their ice cream isn’t very good either, it’s really gummy and nasty.
So Delicious (not Soy delicious) makes the best ice cream in your basic flavors (chocolate, vanilla, neapolitan, peanut butter and others) and they also have another line of “special” flavors (in smaller containers) that’s called “Purely Decadent” That are AMAZING. They have Key Lime pie, Pomegranite chocolate chip, cherry nirvana, turtle trails and pecan praline and more. Those are really good.
Soy/rice/almond cheese is a tricky thing. They often have casein in them that makes them melt, and unfortunately a bunch of the vegan ones taste completely gross. Some of the begans ones are really good, but they probably don’t taste much like “real” cheese.
My favorite all vegan cheese is a rice cheese called “Veganrella” and I can only find it at Ukrops in Virginia, which makes me very sad. My mom likes the kind made by “Follow Your Heart”, but I’m not as crazy about it. It’s okay, but not my favorite.
Oh, and Earth Balance or Willow Run margerines are the best. If you like stick butter go for Willow Run, get Earth Balance in the tub, the stick form isn’t as good.
Wow. More information than anyone probably wanted to know…..!
I’m neither a vegetarian nor great hater of hot dogs, but I did happen to watch a program which included the production of commercial sausages the other day. My conclusion: Not quite a visual wonderland of aesthetic pleasure, or any other type of pleasure for that matter &etc.
The procedure is basically:
– Dump some pork into a giant swirly-bin & mush it around
– Pump the stuff into long tubes of ? (Plastic sheeting? Pigskin?)
– Package.
They proceeded to demonstrate the manager of the sausage company snapping a sausage in half.
“That’s where the hot dog’s classic *snap* comes from! After all that machinery, you’ll have something to think about when your teeth *snap* into your next hot dog!”
162- On a rather unrelated note, I have eaten fish sausages which do actually come in a plastic sleeve, intended for removal before consumption. *thumbs up*
im sorry but that sounds DISGUSTING…..does it’s taste even resemble edible food in the slightest way
163-Aha, indeed I have noticed not all morningstar products are vegan, though I don’t think I had checked the hot dogs. All of that information does help, actually! I’m not familiar with all of the products, particularly the vegan cheeses and ice creams. I’m glad to have some recommendations! Oh, and I believe morningstar does make good spinach nuggets, though I haven’t had them for a while. They also make nice rice-and-veggie patties, though they are somewhat expensive for how much food you get, and I don’t know if they’re vegan.
Agh, I have succeeded in making myself hungry at this late hour!
162~ Same here…*stomach growls*
morningstar breakfast sausages are awsome. i have gotten my non-vegetarian friend addicted. hot dogs are really gross, the kosher ones are a tiny bit better.
155- Sorry, i forgot about that rule. thsnks for the reminder.
167~ I haven’t tried those. When we have (veggie) sausages we usually use “Gimme Lean” by LightLife.
Argh! Typing with one hand is hard!
Um, why are you typing with one hand anyway? i really need to start trying more fake meaty-things, i just do morningstar and tofurkey.IM AT DISNEY WORLD FOR MARDI GRAS BREAK AND THERE IS NO GOOD VEGETARIAN FOOD!i did find a veggie burger today though!
America can actually be pretty hard on vegetarians.
You’d think Asia because of all the pork and stuff in Chinese products.
But actually because of the Buddhist population there are a lot of good fake-meat products
Of course, there are also some very, very, very bad ones
yesterday we were eating fried rice with “Vegetariduck” and that was just plain gross, the only part of duck meat they imitated properly was the squidgy fat, which was one of the reasons I stopped eating most meat in the first place
I eat no meat except fish.
I couldn’t give up sushi and sashimi
especially salmon
144- simply answer really seriously “Well, yes. That is what being vegitarian means….” Okay, maybe that’s only funny to me. But that’s my response to that question.
146- (Vendy) yeah, I was thinking about that but thay’ve since moved on to other topics. They probably got enough letters from scary vegitarians anyways.
152- Cliff Eagle’s a pretty nice guy. Sometimes our opinions clash but we can all handle disagreement.
154- Say: “If you want to convince me to eat meat you’re going to have to make a better argument than that. I’ve had hotdogs and I know I’m not missing anything” I do like hotdogs, but you may not. They’re on the list of things I miss.
I don’t eat fake meat stuff. I’ve had vegitarian hotdogs. I liked them. Except the texture was all wrong. I deffinitely don’t get enough protein and all that stuff you get from meat. I really should be more careful about it. But I’m not.
I have no strong feelings about hot dogs. i should try to get more protien, but i sort of don’t think about it.
I’m thinking about going back to being a vegetarian. We don’t really eat animals at my house, so it won’t be too hard… did you know that 70 MILLION guinea pigs are eaten yearly?????
People, you can get PLENTY of protein from a vegetarian or vegan diet. People obsess about protein, but seriously, don’t freak out. Meat eaters who know nothing about nutrition have it in their heads that us vegetarians are somehow missing vital nutrition, and for some reason they choose to nag us about protein. Trust, me I’ve had scads of well meaning adults practically shoving stuff in my mouth (never my parents, they’re the reason I’m vegan, but friend’s parents) saying that I’m not getting enough protein and that I’m going to grow up deformed. Right. I’m perfectly healthy, thanks very much. I’m short, yes, but so are my parents, so that’s to be rather expected, no?
Seriously, if you’re vegetarian or vegan and people keep interrogating you on where you get all your nutrients, take a nutrition class somewhere or read a book on it.
I’ve found that most of the time the very people who are harping on me because I’m not eating right are the ones that eat very poorly and really should be watching their intake, maybe *gasp* eating some vegetables once in a while! Hey, who knows, if they did they might get some vitamins in their system.
It’s also amusing when after a brief questioning it turns out they really don’t even understand how you get protein in any diet. *sigh* Yes, all my amino acids are present, thanks muchly for your concern. Eh? Yeah……… :-/
It is my personal and highly unprofessional opinion that meat eaters like to harass vegans about things like these because most people feel, at some level, that eating meat isn’t really the healthiest or best way to go and that one of the main reasons they don’t want to give it up is because they simply don’t feel like it. And everyone knows that that’s the best reason to not do something, from cleaning the house to obeying traffic laws to, well, doing anything that’s inconvenient to them at that moment! Hey, why should we bother?! Let’s just make these people that are trying to make a positive change feel stupid by interrogating them about something and acting like they’re being stupid and unhealthy! Yeah, what should we gripe about? Uummmmm…..PROTEIN! Great idea guys, you have no idea how well that’s worked in getting vegetarians nearly as steamed as their plate of Buddah’s delight. (it’s a joke….)
This post turned out a little bit more snarky than I planned. Oops. Oh well, I’ve just had it with having people pestering me about protein. Consider this an exercise in reacting to hot sauce on an open wound, only with typed letters that aren’t snippable… What I said in this post I think is true, and I’ll stand behind it, but I said it in a way that may (probably) will ofend some people. Others will find amusing and yet others will use it to call me a tree hugging hippie and fanatical vegan nazi. I’m not concerned though, that’s happened before.
174- I agree that there alternative ways of getting protein without meat- i think you make a good point here. And you know nothing of snarkiness. That was actually incredibly polite.
175- And I know that you do know snarkiness, so I trust you on that.
Fake meat is incredibly tasty.
175~ *falls off chair*
“Incredibly polite”?! Well, I can practice, I guess…….
There was more, but I decided to delete it.
Well, i could take lessons from you…
176- Wow. That was the most random chain of sentences that i ever heard. “You do know snarkiness. Fake meat is tasty.”
177- Please, do print.
178- That will be 8.50, without the tip.
Well I don’t know where you live so i can’t. Can I just get them free?
Someone was eating duck in my science class. Normaly I have no problem with people eating meat infront of me, but when they pull out a chared ducks head and start waving it about talking about how little meat is on it I feel slightly ill. Is this wrong of me? Was it wrong to make a face? probably.
181–Is it wrong of you to have felt ill? No. I mean, I personally am not a vegetarian, I have no problem with eating or seeing people eating meat. However, you are a vegetarian. And regardless, you can’t control what does or does not make you feel ill. That is something completely beyond your control.
As far as making a face? Well, if the kid was being annoying (and it sounds like what he was eating still resembled an animal–duck’s head?????) I can’t really say it was wrong of you to make a face. Every time I pass somebody on campus who is smoking and I end up getting a lung full of their disgusting cigarette smoke I make a face. Heck, sometimes if I am stuck standing next to someboyd (like at the fair at home) who is smoking, I go so far as to bury my nose in my shirt (oh, my parents got so annoyed with my sister and I when we were little for doing this, as it was rude). Ch–more rude of the people smoking. So, it’s probably a bit inappropriate of me, but…..still.
Nah, it’s not that “wrong” if the kid was being annoying about it. It might, perhaps, ahve been a bit uncalled for if you did something more than make a face, although depending on the extent of what the kid was doing, maybe not.
182- [she] was eating the ducks head. After making the face I appolagized. She didn’t seem bugged by it. I just don’t want to come off as an obnoxious vegitarian.
183–um…..I’m not a vegetarian,but I think even I would be a bit disturbed watching somebody eat a duck’s head, as it would much too closely resemble the animal it once was. Hypocritical, I suppose, but still.
That’s gross. But instead of making a face, you should have brought some brussels sprouts or something the next day and chomped loudly on them right in front of her.
184- yeah. I completely understand. It’s so much easier to eat/ watch people eat meat when it doesn’t look like an animal. I originally stopped eating meat off the bode because it was too much like eating a friend. So no, I don’t think it’s hypocritical of you to dislike eating animals that look too much like what they are.
185- *chuckles* I hate brussel sprouts. I will not put myself through pain to annoy her.
Ok asparagus or something you don’t hate
187- eeeeeew. asparagus.
You like everything I don’t!
188~ I dislike brussels sprouts and asparagus too.
I like brussels sprouts. Sauteed in olive oil and salt…mmmmm.
I like brussels AND apsparagus! I guess you couls say I’m strange but I’ll eat just about anything.
Except for meat. I’m a veggie person. And I love it!
I’ll eat most veggies, just not the weird ones.
I like green leafy veggies. The one that tastes peppery is good. *has no idea what it’s called*
I want to be vegan soooo baaaddd. Stupid parents! Stupid doctors!
I want to be vegan too but I can’t.
Why can’t you be vegan? It’s perfectly fine, as I obviously am proof of, since I’ve been vegan my entire life.
194- Some *ahem* medical authorities have brainwashed my parents into believing that veganism is going to ravish their daughters already underweight body. *mumbles* *glares* *is mad*
193- Why can’t you be vegan?
195~ *sigh* People are so determined that being vegetarian or vegan is bad. It’s incredibly annoying that someone who just a few moments before finding that you were vegan says how healthy you look, yet as soon as you refuse to eat a piece of cheese they act like you’re on the verge of dying from malnutrition.
It would be funny if it wasn’t so annoying and sad.
196- That’s a bum.
Fiddler: On the random thread, you said that your parents would likely be grossed out if you started eating meat. However, you also stated that they used to eat meat up until they were unable to afford it.
I guess I’m just a bit confused about how, if they did at one point consume meat, the thought of of such a thing now would be so repulsive. I mean, I understand that some people are vegetarian/vegan because they think eating meat is nasty, while others because they disapprove (or whatever hte appropriate term would be) of eating meat, because of its harm to animals (or other reasons, I’m sure…), but….
It just seems, I dunno, a bit odd that if someone once ate meat (and presumably did not particularly dislike it strongly), that they would now find it so repulsive….
*shrug* I dunno.
198~ Neither of my parents were ever too fond of meat, but ate it because it was what their parents fed them and because it was the accepted thing to do.
However now, after not eating meat for upwards of 20 years neither of them associate “animal” with “food” anymore, so yes, I think it’s fair to say they would be rather grossed out now if they were to eat meat.
I hope that makes sense…
199–I think it does…make sense, that is.
200~ Oh good.
Anything else?
I’d like to be vegan, but a) I’d die, I’m already a terrible vegeterian and b) I couldn’t keep it up for longer than a week. I like my dairy products.
I think I’d be repulsed if I ate meat now. I can look at other people eating it, but I don’t think I could stand the feeling of it in my mouth, knowing what it was. And I’m only vegeterian since July.
194- My parents wouldn’t let me and I don’t think I have the will power. I’m going to do an experiment to see if I can be one for a day. But not until passover is over, I am not going to deprive myself of food for too many days in a row.
SFTDP, but someone please come and say something random and controversial so this thread can have some good debating again
Wait–VEGEMITE!!! Are you kidding?! I looove that stuff! Especially if you put it in the toaster oven on a peice of bread with butter and muenster cheese and ham on top of it. Vegeterianism, I could probably do, but not vegan, as I could NOT possibly live without seafood. (with the exceptions of octupus, squid, crab, and lobster; my mom eats pickled squid guts as a delicacy. Yuck!)
Do they give the squid guts a fancy name to make it sound more appetizing? That’s what they do with regular meat to make people forget what they’re eating, just by calling it beef instead of cow, pork instead of pig, etc. Although it doesn’t seem to deter people from chicken. I guess they just think of that word as having two meanings, the animal and the thing that they are ingesting.
nolagirl7, a friend said that once when we were eating beef (the thing about beef, I mean.) She told me to “call it what it is!” the next night, we had chicken. She said, “You know you’re eating a dead bird, right?” I said,”Call it what it is! It’s chicken!” I would be perfectly OK eating meat if we called it cow, or sheep. I, in fact, DO call it cow. I would not even mind watching the process. I do not believe in vegetarianism. If people have such weak stomachs that just knowing that something has been alive turns them vegetarian, I think we should stick them back in ancient times and see if they survive.
I wrote the following:
Though these actions you may deplore,
I am, my friend, an omnivore.
built to eat both plant and meat
not merely the grass beneath my feet.
I may slaughter the bovine masses,
but I, dear sir, don’t eat their grasses.
Killing them quickly is better, by far,
than taking their food and letting them starve.
And you, dear reader, I’m telling you now,
eat a vegan, save a cow.
–[Snip!]
Hemlock is poisonous, and so are those berries,
poison ivy and oak, and – hey, those aren’t cherries!
There are all sorts of plants which no one can eat,
not so when we devor our various meats.
meats have more nutrients, taste, and, of course,
they fill you up better than a mouthful of gorse.
They may not like it, but please be kind now.
Save a vegan, feed them a cow.
–[Snip!]
Just FYI, I do NOT condone the eating of vegans! Meat, on the other hand – YUMMY.
But it’s not ancient times. We’re a bit more advanced, and therefor we should be more humane. I believe killing animals, even if it’s painless, is inhumane and barbarian.
Sorry, GAPAS, I did it again! I don’t mean to leave the darn names in!
205- Veganism means not eating animal products – milk, honey, etc. Vegetarianism is not eating any meat at all. So apparently you couldn’t do either. You could, however, be a pescetarian, meaning that you eat fish but no other meat. That’s what I do.
207- It’s not that we have weak stomachs. It’s that we do not like to eat once-alive things- or it is in my case. I don’t eat most animals because I like to watch them roam around and I don’t like sitting on a fencepost watching gentle, docile cows graze and having my thoughts marred by the realization that those creatures are going to be killed very soon so that people like me can eat them. They aren’t doing any harm- they’re just eating grass- who are we to disrupt such harmless and gentle beasts?
209) They aren’t doing very much good, either. And keep in mind that if they had any semblance of sapient thought, they wouldn’t sit around waiting to be eaten. The same argument could be made for some humans… Darn those religious restrictions! It would be so much easier to suffer fools if we could eat them! And you wouldn’t call cows harmless if you’d ever been knocked over by one (not me, a friend). And I like animals, too. S’matter of fact, one of my best friends is a cow! (A human one, but that’s a long story.) I don’t see why the thought of eating something that was once alive bothers you so much. It would have died anyway, at least now it has a purpose. Besides, you do know that lettuce and carrots are classified as living things? And they think about as much as a cow. Just saying.
“Tho these actions you may deplore,
I am, my friend, an omnivore.”
Kokopelli52’s cows are lucky to be able to roam around freely. Most cows conditions make it kinder for them to be killed. But don’t you think it would make more sense to improve thier conditions?
Incidentally, the cows may not be doing much good, but cows don’t do much harm either. knocking a human over is a lot less awful than fighting wars that kill millions of people or causing global warming.
I could argue about global warming, but I won’t. Just because something does no harm in one form, if it does good in another form and not in the first, well, what is the problem?
Maybe you’re exaggerating just a tad on that “millions of people”?
I support PETA – People Eating Tasty Animals
(212) CQC: The author of the Historical Atlas of the 20th Century estimates that in that century alone, 188 million people died in wars, genocides, or famine deliberately engineered to kill people. His breakdown is 83 million deaths from genocide and tyranny, 42 million military deaths in war, 19 million civilian deaths in war, and 44 million deaths from manmade famine. Estimates by other historians fall in the same ballpark; Zbigniew Brzezinski, for example, came up with a figure of 167 million to 175 million deaths “inspired by politically motivated carnage” in the 20th century.
Just a few of CQC’s points that bother me in particular.
(1) If people have such weak stomachs that just knowing that something has been alive turns them vegetarian, I think we should stick them back in ancient times and see if they survive.
You could say I have a weak stomach, I dislike the thought of death inflicted on any manner of creature, be they human or animal, when they are unable to defend themselves. I think that this is unjust and wrong. Beating up a smaller child on the playground who cannot defend themselves is wrong. Killing an animal who cannot defend itself is wrong. Not, perhaps, having the same priority, but I believe these examples to be related. So yes, I have a weak stomach in the form of strong morals, if you’ll pardon my sounding perhaps a little arrogant there.
Like Beavo said, this is not ancient times. You do not need the huge amount of calories and fat supplied by eating meat. This is because you do not do heavy physical labor (assuming that you are a typical person). We have the capability to be humane, we do not need to eat meat (and, indeed are suffering for the choice to remain eating it).
Let’s see you survive during ancient times as well, omnivore or no.
(2) [talking about cows] They aren’t doing very much good, either. And keep in mind that if they had any semblance of sapient thought, they wouldn’t sit around waiting to be eaten.
I agree that cows are not doing much good, so why do the farmers keep breeding them? Because you want to eat them. If you, and the majority of the population, didn’t eat theme there simply would no be as many cows eating up the VAST resources that could be used to feed humans. Meat is incredibly wasteful. If the fresh water and grain used to keep meat animals alive until they are butchered were used to feed humans instead, do you realize how much that could do to end global hunger? Obviously you do not.
I agree also that cows are not doing thinking about history, writing poetry or making discoveries in quantum physics, but does the fact that their intellect is not the same as yours mean they should be kept for the sole purpose of killing? Should we breed and raise mentally retarded humans for meat? Most people would be horrified at such a suggestion. Do you agree with slavery? Racism? While I do not think that a cow’s life is equal with a human’s, there are common threads running through these issues.
(3) And you wouldn’t call cows harmless if you’d ever been knocked over by one (not me, a friend).
This is just ridiculous. Anything in this world can be harmful in some way. You can choke on an ice cube, you could be hit with a shoe and hurt, something might poison you…..the list goes on and on. This is not a valid point against vegetarianism, this is a stupid and irrelevant story.
(4)I don’t see why the thought of eating something that was once alive bothers you so much. It would have died anyway, at least now it has a purpose.
You will die anyway, so I’m sure you don’t have a problem if I murder you now, because your life will have a purpose: making me feel good for a few minutes because you were annoying me. Again, not the exact situation, but it has some eerie similarities, doesn’t it? What is the meaning and purpose of life?
Perhaps it’s just me, but I find the thought that everything else’s purpose is to glorify ME and make ME comfortable, happy, successful, etc. rather disturbing. It’s true, we’re all the most important to ourselves, but isn’t that going a little far? If you want to bible thump at me that God put us here to have “dominion over the animals and the beasts of the field” then think on this one; “dominion” doesn’t really mean “I’m bigger than you so I get to call the shots and bully you.” It means, “I have dominion, so I have the RESPONSIBILITY to protect those under me.” Last I checked, it would be pretty disturbing if someone we trusted to protect us killed or tortured us instead….
(5) Besides, you do know that lettuce and carrots are classified as living things? And they think about as much as a cow. Just saying.
Yes, lettuce and carrots are living things. Do they have a brain? No. Does a cow? Yes. Does a carrot feel pain? Not that we can tell. Does a cow? Yes. They have pain sensors and behavioral indications that are pretty unequivocal. A carrot is alive. A cow is alive. The similarity stops pretty soon after that.
Animals may not have the same kind of intelligence as we do, but again, does that mean that we can do whatever we want with them? Think about racism, think about mental retardation, think about domination and the responsibility entailed in that. These things have a basis somewhere that isn’t perhaps as glaringly obvious as they, nor perhaps as seemingly dangerous, but they have many common factors, whether it appears so or not.
(6) Maybe you’re exaggerating just a tad on that “millions of people�
Not at all. Read Robert’s post. The incredible loss of lives (and the unspoken loss of the trauma and horror) of wars and human tyranny is more than one can fully comprehend. This is not something to be taken lightly. To do so is to disrespect and dishonor the sacrifice those millions of people have made, whether you agree with the cause or not.
Just out of curiosity, how old and what gender is CQC?
Do research. Learn the facts. Be aware that most nutrition education comes from the meat industry.
As with anything, observe the world around you, but look beyond the surface. What you see will not always be attractive, often it will shock you and make you question what you formerly trusted to be correct. What you see beyond the surface will challenge your assumptions, will change your views, and often leave you feeling empty and devoid of things to be sure of.
It’s terrifying, and many, many people avoid it because it is easier to live in ignorance, but is that really a life? What you see isn’t always pretty, but it can be beautiful.
210: I have to ask you this: How many people do you know of who have been knocked over by cows? And how many people have you heard of that have been killed by humans? I would actually say that the cows have every reason to harm us. “Something that would die anyway…” Why should they die on our account?
Carrots and lettuce cannot feel pain or be afraid or upset. Cows can.
CQC is a fifteen year old female, and she thinks that if something must die, and they can do nothing with their life, they should do something with their death.
Humans do kill many of their own, and that is a HORRIBLE thing, yes, and I’m sorry I was uninformed about the exact number. However, sometime war is necessary, as is killing animals for meat. You say that if all the grain, etc. used to feed cows were instead used to feed humans, we would go a long way toward ending global hunger. For one thing, I don’t know about you, but I don’t like eating grass, not unless it is a certain type and prepared in a certain way. Second, the meat also feeds many people.
Also, some people NEED to eat animal protein. It is unfair to say that no one should eat meat when they have to.
There are many differences between killing me because I annoyed you and killing a cow so I can eat. For one thing, I am not a cow. For another, I contribute more to this world than a cow, not to sound arrogant or anything.
Finally, on another note, did you know that some religions do not allow this kind of elevation of a cow? Sacrifices and the like, in any religion that has them, show that the cow should be killed for some reasons. The Jewish methods of killing an animal are extremely merciful, and the animals have to be able to walk up to the place where they are killed. Therefore, they have to be treated well. And the very fact that Jews have laws about how to kill animals for food means that they can. Religion is not a good argument, which is why I didn’t bring it up before, because it all depends on what you believe. I personally believe that animals were put here for our use, but I can’t convince anyone that way.
I hate to leave an argument in the middle like this, but it’s getting awfully frustrating, not being able to talk face to face. I have much to say, but it is hard for me to type. Also, the lack of inflection also affects my argument. Sorry. I might be back, but I have no more to say. It really is a case of I think this, and you think that, and we aren’t planning to change our minds. We both have good arguments, and we are both arguing from moral ground. It won’t work, and it will frustrate us all.
I am NOT offended, and I am not leaving in a huff, I just think that there is nothing more to say. I’m sorry I started this. See you other places.
216~ Alright, I understand where you’re coming from. I wasn’t offended either.
I look forward to seeing you on other parts of the blog.
Although you are not going to read (possibly) or reply (probably) I would like to point out that what I meant by using the grain resources to feed humans directly instead of cows to then be butchered and then fed to humans is that when one sees the huge number of corn and soybean fields that yield, I don’t know, tons of food, and the fact that most of that is being fed to cows who are then raised for meat, it becomes apparent that meat is not an efficient food source. The number of bushels of grain fed to a cow to produce one pound of meat is huge. Many more people could be fed with the grain in it’s original form. That’s all.
No, we as humans do not need the protein from animals, one can get enough from a plant based diet.
That’s all I’m going to say now.
Specifically, 90% energy is lost passing through every trophic level. So cows get 10 % of the energy the plants store, and we get 1% of the energy the plants stored (through the cows). So by eating grain or grass or what have you, about ten times the energy is saved.
Would anyone like to calculate further?
216- Quoted for Accuracy.
216- “do nothing with their life”?? I personally think that if something can enjoy itself, it is doing something that should not be interrupted so that we can eat it. Furthermore, on the practical side of things, grain can be shipped to other nations more easily that meat. And when cows are slaughtered, they are frightened and hurt. Grain (hopefully) does not feel anything while being harvested.
I came back. I like arguing. But only for a little bit. I’m disagreeing with almost EVERYONE today. It’s fun.
On the subject of protein (because everything else is unarguable, as we are coming from totally different opinions on what animals are here for – and that’s OK, but it makes counterarguments difficult), I would like to make a point. I have a friend who must eat meat at least twice a day (poor thing, but that is because of religious reasons that I won’t go into, but they mean she can’t eat chocolate a lot of the time. *sniff*), and she can eat only a limited amount of fruits and veggies. Just saying. Leaving again. I will probably be back. I need therapy for this addiction to disagreeing.
220- What religion is she? Just curious.
Orthodox Jew. Most of my friends are, as I go to an Orthodox Jewish school and I’m rather antisocial. Why?
BBQ chips… *licks lips and goes away again, off to find a therapist*
I made Ratatouille last night and my entire family complained that it didn’t have any meat. It’s hard to be the only vegetarian around here, because there isn’t any space to grow veggies. How does being an Orthodox Jew force one to eat meat twice a day?
220- I’m really confused. At camp we had to read through the entire torah portion on food, keeping kosher, etc., and I saw nothing that said eating meat twice a day was mandatory. However, your friend probably knows more about it then me, since I’m conservative. I’m still confused though.
224- Oh, I’m sorry! I didn’t mean that she had to eat meat because of religious reasons, I meant that she is a poor thing because of religious reasons. She can’t eat chocolate most of the time, and she absolutely LOVES Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups. (And the waiting-to-eat-dairy-after-meat was the thing I didn’t want to go into here.)
223- My brother is the only one in our family who regularly bemoans lack of meat in a dish. It’s a bit of a bum that you put in that effort and they complained.
So they might make a couple of my friends stop being vegeterian. A couple are bulimics and obviously don’t want to tell the doctors about it, so the doctor is going to blame their lack of protien on their vegeterianism. Of course, people like me, you /can/ actually blame my unhealthiness on my vegeterianism, but still. I don’t want to be forced to eat meat, which is why I wiggle out of all my physicals. But tough luck for them. I don’t really think it’s fair, though. Can’t they just take, protein tablets or something?
thats so sick…throwing up food has nothing to do with being vegetarian….its actually better for you….it must really stink to not be able to chose how you eat
45- I, for one, am somewhat inclined to agree with you.
thanks i mean it is you own life choice to pick out what you eat and how you feel about different foods
I agree. People should dbe able to pick and choose whatever they want to eat, and leave others to decide for themselves. I have friends who think I do not get enough protein and are constantly saying “I need to have you over the next time we have steak” and things like that. I do not think I would like steak. I don’t really like meat in large quantities (except for samoln. mmmm.). A few slices of corned beef or salami and maybe a hotdog or meatballs now and again is good, but I do not feel the need to eat steak, and I think people should be allowed to eat whatever they want (as long as they don’t have any eating disorders or dietary problems)
I have no real problem with vegetarians, truly, unless you make it into almost a religion. Then I have serious problems with it (you don’t know what I’m talking about? Count yourself lucky). You don’t want to eat meat? The thought of eating a once-living being distresses you? Fine, I don’t care. It is amusing to poke fun at it, though. But it’s not something I would debate passionately.
And with that I leave this thread for good. Really.
A religion? I have never met anybody like that. Please introduce.
*writes Ten Commandments of vegetarianism in styrofoam tablets*
Oh. I have killed this thread. Anyway, I’ve been vegetarian ( except Thanksgiving ) for about a month! Woohoo!
Wow, I’d forgotten those debates…..
bubblebabe~ Congratulations!
Beevs~ What are you eating (or not eating) in your vegetarian diet that’s making you unhealthy? Being vegetarian should have no adverse affects on one’s health.
I’m flexitarian! “Flexi” is such a fun word to say. Flexi, flexi, flexi…
At the supermarket, I found the most awesome vegetable in existence. It is called Romanesco Broccoli, and it’s made of a spiral, and the little bumps that make up that spiral are made of spirals, and those little spirals are made of mini spirals! I tried to put it as my avatar–I hope you can see it.
(end ridiculous rant)
‘Twould be a rave, not a rant. Rant means “I hate Romanesco Broccoli” Rave means “I worship Romanesco Broccoli”
I want to be a vegetarian, but I think I love meat too much.
vbean-That picture is in my “Go Figure” book!!!! It’s a fractal!!!!!!! I like !!!!s!!!!!!!!!!
It’s a Fibonacci sequence!!! *screams* *falls over laughing*
I actually know what that is!!! *screams**falls over laughing*
*is confused*
This is part of the Fibonacci sequence;
1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55,…
See the pattern? 0+1=1, 1+1=2, 2+2=3, and so on.
Wow. This is a scary thread. I completely forget what I was going to post on here!
I have to convince my mother that being vegetarian is not unhealthy. She does not seem to have researched much, so I can probably do it, but then I probably will have to create a new diet for the second time, since the school’s food supplies and home supplies are radically different. Although this might allow me to cook more.
Hi, Jakob,
The Vegetarian Times magazine’s website has a “Vegetarian Starter Kit” that might help. It has tips on creating diets for people of different ages. Also recipes.
I’m not a vegetarian but I’ve been reducing the amount of meat I eat. Which gives me this idea: Maybe your mother will feel better about your diet change if you make a gradual change instead of dropping meat all at once.
I already have made the change; it was a gradual switch at the start of this semester in January.
Thanks a lot! I usually eat yogurt in the morning with a bagel and juice, then fruit salad, cheese, whatever else is available. Dinner is random with the menu. I should probably eat more vegetables and bread.
She is saying no because I am “too young” and that I won’t get enough iron or protein. Cake.
Do you read Vegetarian Times? I love that magazine. Although I find that the more recent ones have fewer recipes. Almost all of the ones I’ve made from the magazine have been really good.
Also, Keiffer and I calculated that together we have consumed a twenty-foot-high stack of sunflower-seed-butter-and-jelly sandwiches since the beginning of the school year. XD (They’re usually the only vegetarian thing in the school cafeteria.)
JW – Maybe you could appease her by promising to take vitamins or something?
If it’s important to you, you could do some research on nonmeat sources of protein and iron. Calculate how much you need and what you would have to eat to meet the requirements.
I am a vegetarian, but I am not really eating exactly healthily… I need to change that. Badly. Any ideas how…?