Requested by Disreputable Dragon, who describes it as follows:
all about the quirks of the English language and craunching marmosets – er, phrases that you want to find the origins of (oh dear, I ended a sentence with a preposition! *horror*)
Patience, Please
This site is under reconstruction and will look strange for a while. We regret the inconvenience.
**phrases whose origins you wish to find.
I hate when people say “I could care less” when they obviously mean “I couldn’t care less.” Such a mistake warrants any of a number of sarcastic remarks from me.
I also don’t like this:
Person: “So you don’t [insert activity here]?”
Me: “Yes.”
Person: “Oh, wait, you do?”
Me: “No, I don’t. I answered, ‘yes’ because your question contained a negative. As in: ‘Yes, I don’t [activity].'”
But this is a happy thread full of joy and wonder and I ought not to whine. Hee, “ought not to.” I like that.
Could someone C&P that bit about Olde English? From, I think, the first July discussion thread? I think….
Also, is “Disreputable Dragon” a reference to the “Disreputable Dog?” Sorry, off-topic, I know, I know….
I once read in a language column that the expression originally went “I could care less, but I’d have to try very hard.” It became incoherent when people shortened it. I can’t vouch for that story, though. If the whole, two-part version ever existed, it must have been before my time. When I was a kid, people said “I couldn’t care less” — as is logical.
1-Oh, yes, “ought not to” is fun. ^_^ But “Wouldst thou bestow upon my humble person this dance?” is even more fun, I think.
(Did I get that right, Robert?)
2- That would explain it much better, assuming it’s accurate. Also, kids these days… Hmm…
Could we discuss individual words here, too? Or is that for the Words thread?
2-haha, i’m going to use that now
I think discussion of word etymologies would be fun here, yes. Whee! Language^_^
1- For the longest time I was under the impression that the proper way to say it WAS “could care less,” and I’m still trying to train myself not to use that phrase in that way. Along with training myself not to say things like “more perfect.”
By the way, is “brilliant” an absolute?
Found ’em!
92. Robert Coontz (Administrator) �|� July 4th, 2007 at 11:33 am
(91, 84) Or thine ugly feet.
(“Thy” and “thine” work like “a” and “an,” depending on whether the next word starts with a consonant or a vowel sound. So do “my” and “mine.” The Elizabethans weren’t entirely consistent about that, but making the shift shows you know what you’re doing.)
Thy feet, but thine ugly feet.
Mine eyes, but my two eyes.
and
89. Paul Baker (Administrator) �|� July 4th, 2007 at 10:34 am
And while I’m at it, let’s clear up the nonsense about the -eth ending. That, too, is simple. It’s just the old version of our -s verb ending. So,
Modern : He goes.
Old : He goeth.
Modern : She cries.
Old : She crieth.
Modern : It squeals.
Old : It squealeth.
Modern : We pray
Old : We pray.
Modern : You stink.
Old : You stink.
Modern: I cease.
Old : I cease.
Note : That -eth only appears on the verb after he, she or it.
That’s all there is to it. Simple.
OK, there’s one weird exception. Old legal documents like deeds of ownership usually start with
Witnesseth that I, Eric of Bogham….
which is either a verb without a subject (maybe it implies “This document witnesseth that …”) or else it’s an imperative (I call upon these persons here present to witness that….) in which case it’s ungrammatical, because it should be “Witness that….”. This one continues to puzzle me, and if anyone can sort it out, I’d be very grateful.
and
88. Paul Baker (Administrator) �|� July 4th, 2007 at 10:23 am
73 – “Thee” and “thou” are actually quite simple, but people always confuse them, for some reason. They’re fmailiar forms – if you’ve learned a bit of French or German, you’ll have come across something similar.
Thou is a subject :
I say
Thou sayest (used for mates, social equals or inferors)
You say (Polite form, used when addressing superiors or for formal situations)
He sayeth
She sayeth
We say
They say
(shortened forms : thou saist, he saith)
Thee is an object :
No man shal thee harme while I live, nor do thee ill.
We only use the polite, formal versions nowadays.
Can you tell I’m going to the Ren Faire in a few hours?
(7) “Brilliant” is not an absolute. It’s possible for two stars (or ideas, or people) to be brilliant, but for one to be more brilliant than the other.
(8) More about “you”: it’s not just the formal pronoun, but also the plural one — just like vous in French, Sie in German, and vy in Russian. (There’s a different system in Spanish.)
The formal-informal (or polite-familiar) distinction leads to some interesting situations when two people are talking and one outranks the other. For example, you’ll address a servant using thou, but the servant will reply with you forms.
The exception is when praying. God, obviously, outranks everybody, but in Elizabethan English is always addressed informally: “Lord, Thou knowest…” If you read the King James Bible or the original Book of Common Prayer, you might imagine “thou” to be super-formal, but it’s not — just the opposite.
8,9- My head hurts.
It’s simpler than it looks.
I know thee (if we’re close friends).
I know you (if we’re not close friends, or if there’s more than one of you).
Thou knowest me (if we’re close friends).
You know me (if we’re not, or if there’s more than one of you).
He (or she or it) knoweth me.
They know me.
I thought that the GAPAs normally zapped the annoying leet posts?
Oh, that’s right. Soon-to-be former posts 12 through 14 are about to be zapped (or perhaps I should say de-leet-ed).
I love Elizabethan.
Squee! I started a thread! Eternally grateful to you, Robert Coontz, and to everyone who posts!!
(12, 13) Though oddly enough, we don’t have a policy for zapping egregious puns. *dodges pie*
Not yet… That should be changed as soon as possible. *pies Robert*
Ha, I automatically corrected that sentence to “phrases of which you want to find the origins”. SM’s way works too, I think, but maybe “whose” is only supposed to be used when refering to a person. I’m not sure though.
(18) Some editors and teachers tollow the “whose”-only-for-people rule; others don’t. I think “whose” is too useful to be restricted in that way, so I just slot it in wherever I need it.
You could also say “phrases the origins of which you want to find.” But in general there’s nothing wrong with ending a sentence with a preposition, though in this case it sounds a bit awkward.
I still don’t understand WHOM!!!!
I despise it when people say “Me and Shawna.” I also despise it when people said “You did good.”
Ugh, they just kill me.
20- It used to drive me up the wall too, but where I am everyone talks like they’re from the south and those things are the norm.
Though here it’s ‘you done good.’
2- I agree with ebeth, that needs to be used.
8,9,11- I thank thee, I was meaning to go back and copy that so I could use it for a quick reference. I’m trying to memorize it so I can speak properly.
16- I will support you if you wish to take up a movement agenst them
This was probably the first year I understood grammer, it just sort of clicked. I just blinderd my way through all the predicate nominatives/adjectives, direct object and indirect objects, and so on. I don’t know, but my teacher last year just made it work. Maybe I’ll type up my notes for you all
20-
Who
– Subject of the sentince
– Predicate nominative, following a linking verb
Whom
– Obect of the sentince
— Direct object
— Indirect object
— Object of a preposition
_Whom_ [subject] [
verb].Whom will you
askto the dance?_who_ [
verb]. ((“Who” serves as the subject))I know who
is going.I think I got that right. Please feel free to correct anything here if I got it wrong.
20- I hate it when they do that unintentionally, but Mr B, my old band teacher, said “you done good” at times, either to some player or to annoy Mrs. H., one of the grammar teachers.
Eep, got the second one wrong there. “I” would be the subject, not ‘who.’ I’m to tired to think of a sentince to replace it though… darn.
when the unknown thing is doing the action (Who threw the ball?) you use who. (subject)
When the unknown thing is being affected by the action (To whom did you throw the ball?) you use whom. (object)
Voila, who and whom!
When in doubt, you can try substituting “he” and “him” into the sentence. If “he” sounds right, use who; if “him” sounds right, use whom.
Examples:
“I’m thinking of someone [who(m)] I know.” I know HIM, so it’s WHOM I know.
“I’m thinking of someone [who(m)] I know to be innocent.” I know HIM to be innocent — so, WHOM again.
“I’m thinking of someone [who(m)] I know is innocent.” I know HE is innocent, so this time the sentence ends “WHO I know is innocent.”
Get it? Now, how about these:
“I’m thinking of someone [who(m)] I saw last week.”
“I’m thinking of someone [who(m)] saw me last week.”
The phrases “dead ringer”, “saved by the bell”, and ones similar to these date from feudal times (maybe Elizabethan, I forget). People would get drunk at gatherings and pass out, and sometimes people thought they were dead. So they would be buried, but it turned out they were still alive (and the coffin would get scratches on it from them trying to get out, which contributed to the legend of vampires, but that’s another story), so they would eventually die down there because they couldn’t escape. Eventually someone wised up to this, and whenever people were delivered to the undertaker directly after being spectacularly intoxicated, strings would be tied to their hands and feet, and these strings would be connected to a bell. So if a bell started ringing, the graveyard caretaker would know, oops, that was a mistake, and go dig the poor person back up.
This may not be the exact origin, but I heard this from a source pretty knowledgable about these things.
(27) There’s an e-mail message circulating about those phrases, along with “raining cats and dogs” and several others. I’ve received it several times. It’s all misinformation, unfortunately — picturesque, but wrong. You can read all about it on Snopes.com:
http:// www. snopes. com/language/phrases/1500.asp
“I’m thinking of someone whom I saw last week.”
“I’m thinking of someone who saw me last week.”
Robert, I thank thee for thine useful guidance.
Was that right?
22- I GET IT!
26- That’s very, very, very helpful.
Now let’s see…
“I’m thinking of someone whom I saw last week.”
“I’m thinking of someone who saw me last week.”
Because I saw HIM and HE saw me, right?
27- I’m pretty sure it was because of school, if you get called up to the board, and just as you’re about to attempt to write an equation or answer something you don’t know the answer to, the school bell rings, and your friends say “You where saved by the bell.”
I’m almost completely positive that’s it.
As for the other one, I don’t know.
(30, 27) Snopes.com says that “saved by the bell” comes from boxing, in which a bell marks the end of a round, when the boxers have to stop fighting. If you’re getting clobbered, the sound of the bell gives you time to breathe and recover. What happens in school is very similar, though, as I well remember.
In “dead ringer,” a ringer is someone who resembles someone else. In this expression, “dead” just means absolute(ly), exact(ly), perfect(ly) — as in “dead even” and a “dead heat.” It has nothing to do with corpses. (In Britain, people often describe things as “dead interesting.”)
(30, 26) Dead right.
This is a bit off subject, but the title of this thread made me think of mistranslations, which made me think of a funny thing I saw in China. There were 2 trash cans, one for recyclables and one for trash, but they were mistranslated. Instead of non-recyclable it said “unreducible”. On the recycling one it said “reclain”. I’m not sure if those are words, but it was interesting.
Does anyone know where the expression “dog days of summer” came from? I’ve heard that it’s because it gets so hot the dogs go crazy. (from the book Sounder, which also says that’s a myth)
Aweful and awesome are two words that are interesting:
if something is full of awe, then it’s bad, but if it only has some awe, then it is incredible/tremendous/amazing. How does this make sense?
I am guilty. I try my best to speak with good english, but sometimes I start to talk coutrified without realizing it. The one word that gets me every time is the word “bacon”. I can’t even describe it. It’s just my accent. In fact, there are probubly words that I always say with my country accent and I don’t even realize it. I guess that’s because everyone around me speaks like that. Ooooooooooooo, I just had a deep thought. I think that people from New York, Califronia, etc. have a weird accent, but people from New York, California, etc. think that I have a weird accent. So, really, everyone’s accents are both weird and normal. Whoa.
I always say “microwave” “mike-er-wave”. I must stop!
32-I know somebody who went to China, and she brought our family lots of… things… Like hotel soaps, and shower caps. Except the label of the shower cap said “shower cat”. And she gave us a laundry bag that said “I am a laundry bag”, reminding me (Of course) of the TMBG song, “I am a Grocery Bag”.
1-I was wondering about the Disreputable Dog/Dragon, myself. Is there a connection, Dragon? That would be cool.
1,35- me too? Are you getting that from the Disreputable Dog? I agree it would be cool.
Does anyone remember that book that was in one issue of muse, translated by some guy from English to Portuguese, then back to English, using only a dictionary? The title reminded me of it.
0-You don’t have a leg on which to stand! (Just kidding. Really.)
37-Yes. A MB in-joke. Wow, we’re cool.
Has anyone noticed that ‘discretion’ and ‘direction’ are basically the same word.
37- You mean the English-Portugese dictionary? That was done by Portugese-French then French-English? That was called English as She is Spoke.
37- I remember that too!
The best use for the word fantastic is as a negative, used literally. Awfully confusing and hideously funny. Yay, compressed analogies, or something like that.
It’s true. Many of our slang words meaning “really good, exciting, or desirable” started out as adjectives with more-specific, different meanings.
37-rember! I jus read it!(looks around and sees looks for other museblogs) well i did!
Roberto, you never answered my question (comment 3)!!! How am I supposed to perfect my Olde English if no one tells me how to do so?! @.@
We should speak in Elizabethian English on here! I’ll probably butcher it though. I’m already horrible at grammar.Ok, here it goes…
Would’st thou not taunt me for mine awful use of Elizabethian English?
eeeh. I looked at the stuff in the earlier posts. I hope that’s right!
(45) Perfect, except that there’s no apostrophe in “wouldst” and only one “i” in “Elizabethan.” I would not taunt thee. Thou gavest me no cause. Thine English befitteth the Queen herself.
(44) Thou didst indeed.
Upon this screen shall I now inscribe a plentitude of mangled English:
In a Tokyo Hotel: Is forbidden to steal hotel towels please. If you are not a person to do such thing is please not to read notice.
In a Bucharest hotel lobby: The lift is being fixed for the next day. During that time we regret that you will be unbearable.
In a hotel in Athens: Visitors are expected to complain at the office between the hours of 9 and 11 A.M. daily.
In a Yugoslavian hotel: The flattening of underwear with pleasure is the job of the chambermaid.
In a Japanese hotel: You are invited to take advantage of the chambermaid.
In the lobby of a Moscow hotel across from a Russian Orthodox monastery: You are welcome to visit the cemetery where famous Russian and Soviet composers, artists, and writers are buried daily except Thursday.
Outside a Hong Kong tailor shop: Ladies may have a fit upstairs.
In a Bangkok dry cleaner’s: Drop your trousers here for best results.
A sign posted in Germany’s Black forest: It is strictly forbidden on our black forest camping site that people of different sex, for instance, men and women, live together in one tent unless they are married with each other for that purpose.
In a Zurich hotel: Because of the impropriety of entertaining guests of the opposite sex in the bedroom, it is suggested that the lobby be used for this purpose.
In an advertisement by a Hong Kong dentist: Teeth extracted by the latest Methodists.
In a Rome laundry: Ladies, leave your clothes here and spend the afternoon having a good time.
In a Czechoslovakian tourist agency: Take one of our horse-driven city tours we guarantee no miscarriages.
Advertisement for donkey rides in Thailand: Would you like to ride on your own ass?
In a Bangkok temple: It is forbidden to enter a woman even a foreigner if dressed as a man.
In a Tokyo bar: Special cocktails for the ladies with nuts.
In a Norwegian cocktail lounge: Ladies are requested not to have children in the bar.
In a Budapest zoo: Please do not feed the animals. If you have any suitable food, give it to the guard on duty.
In the office of a Roman doctor: Specialist in women and other diseases.
In an Acapulco hotel: The manager has personally passed all the water served here.
From a Japanese information booklet about using a hotel air conditioner: If you want just condition of warm in your room, please control yourself.
46-Yay! I didn’t completely kill the Elizabethan! That was my first try ever, so I’m pretty happy with it. I have no spelling ablility at all.
47-Those are funny!
My school schedule will be coming soon! I’m so happy because I get to take Latin and history of theater. I think we do Shakespeare and we get to lip-sync in history of theater. Hey! If you abbreviate that it spells HOT! Sweeeet. I’m going to practice my Elizabethan and hopefully we’ll do something where I can look impressive with it…or just scare people.
46-WooT, woot! This news doth fall as music upon mine ears, that I should speak the fair Elizabethan tongue quite properly. (How’s that?)
(Hm…I think that maybe should’ve been “upon my ears”…hm…)
*ponders over this until Robert tells her that she’s right)
Mine is correct, as “ears” starts with a vowel. It works like “a” and “an.”
51-Oh, yay! Yes, I’m just that amazing…lol.
Ha, we saw many amusing signs in China. Such as instead of ‘Keep off the grass’: “Ecological protection ties everybody’s heart.” Or “Bang head caput” on a set of stairs for ‘watch your head.’
47 and 53 ~ Those reduced me to tears from laughing so hard. xD
My friend got many things in Chinatown that had badly translated writing on them, such as a pen reading “To my recent mother.” Whatever that means…
Once we were in a hotel in Romania and I was at the front desk with my dad. While he was waiting for them to do something, he started reading the laundry list and then burst into uncontrollable laughter. When the clerk asked why, he managed “Men…don’t…wear…panties!” xD
In Britain, men don’t wear pants — that’s the word for what Americans call panties.
My sister spent a year as an exchange student in Scotland. Soon after she arrived, a young man from her college there invited her on a hike. She said, “Sounds great! Shall I wear pants?” He blushed deep red and stammered, “I would hope so.”
55 ~ That’s great. xD I will definitely keep that in mind when I go to Britain… (No trip planned, unfortunately, but I swear, it will happen, and when it does I’ll use the right words. I hope. Trouserstrouserstrousers.)
55 – I didn’t know you had a sister. That has nothing to with this thread, but still. Do you have other siblings?
I hate it when people say “Have a Good One.” Usually cashiers say it at the grocery store, and it drives my crazy! Have a good what? How can someone have a good one?
Okay, sorry. That phrase just bothers me.
55- I believe that “pants” is a correct term for any type of underwear, male or female, in the UK. Knickers, however, has a feminine connotation. So the statement “Men don’t wear pants” would be incorrect.
33: Awful doesn’t have an “e”, so I’m almost positive its root isn’t “awe”. The suffix “-some” is added to nouns to make them into adjectives. The closest definition of “-some” is probably “containing”. Think words like cumbersome, troublesome, and loathsome.
47: Those were so funny!
Silly Dot, tricks are for Muses.
In 59, the definition should be “causing”, not “containing”. That makes much more sense.
47-Those are soooo hilarious! I literally cracked up and got everyone to stare ate me.
The article in Muse got me extra credit in Language Arts.
47~ Those are from the book “Free Drinks For ladies With Nuts” right? That’s a great book….. I was laughing so hard I was crying.
55~ I guess I’ be prettyy embarassed too!
(58) I stand corrected. In any case, it’s a word with which Americans need to be careful.
60-Actually, I believe either one of those would make sense.
How about “goed” I am informed that this was an accepable word in Middle English.
However, I have a different story with it. One that my dear friend will never let me forget…..
At breakfast we were eating pancakes, and, of corse, we had syrup. Well, there was an ant making it’s way up the side of the container, and by the time I finished chewing my [large] bite of pancke, it was prety close to the edge. Feeling the need to alert them about this looming tradgedy, I yell out, “It’s going in!” unfourtunately, it was in before I got it all out. So, what do I do? I use my knowlege of the English language and chang “going” to past tense. As you may imagine, what came out was, “IT GOED IN!!!!” [silence] then a collective, “WHAT?!?!” I then had to explain what “it” was, and that it went into the syrup….. So, was I using Middle English, or Fernlish?
People?
have I scared everyone away? *feels lonely*
Here! But, I don’t have anything to say. Plus, if we are talking about english, you didn’t capatalize 68.
I apologize profusely. But, as you can see from post 66, my English isn’t always the very best. However, I try.
That’s why I need people on this thread, to keep me in line!
I hope that in English this year we get to wrie poetry instead of just analyzing it. That wasn’t nearly as much fun.
I can’t write poetry to save my life.
People often tell me I should be a writer, probably because I’m prone to lugging around a whole backpack of books to read, and usually about 3 notebooks and journals to write in. However, I don’t consider myself a vert good writer. I write letters and occasionally start a story, and of course, hang out on MB, but that’s pretty much it.
I usually don’t worry too much about Grammar, it sort of comes easily, even though I haven’t done a whole lot with it. Though, of course, I have my lapses, often concerning ants and maple syrup…..
I also have a habit of using a ton of words to convey a simple thought. Like I’m doing now, with this really long post. Sorry!!