Unlike the random thread, this discussion thread stays on topic until the topic changes.
Newcomers should read The Rules and The Guide before plunging in.
Current topic: Princesses (real, not fictional, and emphatically not Disney; requested by Kokonilly)
Fairy tales and Disney and such
Spelling mistakes (including one in Harry Potter)
Plans for Easter/spring break and Favorite colors
can this topic be about easter/ spring break plans???
I am going to Christchurch to be with my cousins
So far, I have no plans.
Except to get the new Panic At the Disco CD, ’cause that’s coming out over break.
But hopefully to relax. And maybe go to the beach.
I don’t like that topic.
Since this is the incredible Morphing CHAMELEON Thread
(and Chameleons change colors),
How about favorite colors?
Mine’s PURPLE! ! ! ! ! ! !
3 – Are you new?
You can’t just choose your own topics whenever you feel like it.
4-Actually, you can. t_c_f did on the first post at midnight, when nobody could really argue with her. That was more annoying.
I guess I’ll comment on both.
We aren’t going anywhere far during break, but a lot of stuff we haven’t been able to do will probably get done.
My favorite color is blue. This is actually a valid topic, as the GAPAs don’t know many of the birthday colors for people. If you haven’t told the GAPAs before you should…
Red-tailed HAWK
I like the favorite colors topic! *pouts*
Mine’s jet black, but after that I like neon green. All my sites are laden with both.
For spring break I’ll probably do my homework, sleep in every day, and sit on MB for hours babbling excitedly about the kokon.
My favorite color is blue.
I have no plans ever again. No, that’s a lie, but the only thing I know I’m doing over break is all-county orchestra. A lot of people I know are in this chorus with me and they’re going to Europe the following week but I opted out of that so…heck if I know, I’ll probably plan to study lots of Spanish and learn guitar and end up sleeping the entire week.
Also, I like colors. Seriously, I just generally like them. So my favorite color is tie-dye/rainbow. Every time I try to pick one I start thinking about the rest and I can’t decide. It used to be purple, though.
Okay then.
I like purple. And black. And blue. And I like grey I guess. Colors are good. I just don’t like certain shades of orange.
I’m staying at some family friends for spring break, since I can’t afford to go back home. Ah well.
I don’t really have a favorite color, although I am more partial to the cooler side of the color wheel.
Isn’t it weird that this thread usually never changes?
11-If you want it to change, change it.
I am going to visit my cousins in Massachusetts.
My favorite color is purple, followed by orange, then sky blue.
5 – RTH! actually it was 8pm the next day for me, so I’m sorry I posted wen you were all asleep, but I can’t help it that there is such a time difference!!!!
my favorite colour is pink
My favorite color is probably… well, actually I have 5:
1. pink
2. orange
3. green
4. blue
5. purple
Rainbow!!!!!!
My vacation plan is to (hopefully) go to Arizona.
Nothing.
I like light blue and/or lime green.
Cousins coming from college, going to hang with them. Beach, eat oranges (most likely), movies, suuuuuunshine.
blue, turquoise, green, silver, and the purpleybrown mix of colors in my soft, rough, variegated skein of manos del uruguay yarn. love. it.
My favorite color: Blue. Blue pwns.
Sleep. Goof off. Draw.
I like blues and purples and some greens. It really depends on how I’m feeling.
Hither come rains and snows, too
This writer’s favorite color be blue.
I don’t know what I’ll be doing on spring break.
I want to have a spring break party to make up for the birthday party that never happened, but I don’t think that will happen either.
I have favourite colour combinations, but I don’t like any colors by themselves.
1-orange and white
2-purple and black
I’m happy because I have those colours on my walls. My room at my mom’s house has white walls with random orange squares. My room at my dad’s is purple with big black circles across the middle.
I’m going to Washington, D.C. over break. I don’t know why my dad wants to do this with one of his rare vacations, since the running isn’t good there and we’re also visiting several of Mom’s relatives on the way.
My favorite color is blue right now. I want to ascend into the blue sky and wake up right now. Finals week starts tomorrow and I am SO stressed. Plus there’s a guy who hasn’t been speaking to me ever since he said he just wanted to be friends this term…I don’t really want to be here right now.
I’m going to a Model UN conference in Ohio, but other than that I don’t really have anything planned. We only have 3 days, but it’s better than nothing!
25- You never said your favorite color
although I sense its Purple hints the
name Purple Panda! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Spring Break Plans: Hyperventilate over the Kokon
Plans for Easter: Hyperventilate over the Kokon
That about sums it up.
Favorite Color: Light but not light blue. Kind of medium. Hard to describe. I also like orange, which is why it’s my birthday color. They’re probably tied. I’m rambling, aren’t I?
my plans: I get to go and explore the southwestern area of the US. I’m really excited. A few of my favorite authors have written things set around there and I’ve never been there before.
my favorite colors are many but they include copper, purple, orange, indigo, green, blue, the color of the sky at twilight.
23 wasn’t posted when I wrote mine but those are awesome walls. I like combinations too, especially that of copper or orange and a bluer tone of purple. violet, perhaps.
My favourite colour??? Sparkley magenta. At the moment.
Plans for Easter? Probably go outside at 5 am with my little brother and collect the eggs I’ve hidden at 10 that night.
28- Oooh, I like the color of the twilight sky also!
Of course, I like even better when it darkens and the stars appear.
31 – I think the color of the sky is prettier during the night than during the day. The light blue is all right, but we see it too often. The deep blue/black is prettier…
Spring break plans- go to Savannah/Hilton Head and go to a wedding
Easter Plans- None
My favorite colors are purple and chocolate brown.
32-mm, yes. I love the sky’s color from dusk and sunset through twilight and midnight to dawn. I’ve also always wanted to see the northern lights.
34 – I think the Northern Lights would be so cool to see. I mean, pictures are something, but actually seeing it in person is probably so amazing…
Sunrises and sunsets are beautiful, too.
to see the northern lights! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
36- Yes, to see, but not to feel. The Aurora Borealis is usually caused by charged particles from the sun. Solar radiation is baaad.
*flees into cave* *puts on thick sunscreen*
37 – my uncle (who lives in alaska) just got 2 malamute puppies (since his last malamute was evil, attacked 1 too many people (including me) and had to be put down) and their names are Aurora and Borealis. They are so cute, and now I understand why he picked those names – they’re perfect for Alaskan dogs
My easter plans will probably NOT include looking for eggs since we will all be 13 or older. We will probably go swimming all the time since it is still summer!! haha
38- It had to be put down? Aw, that’s sad. Even though it was evil.
Did it have rabies?
(35, 36) There are Southern Lights, too: the Aurora Australis. Maybe Sam or treble_cone_freeskier! has seen them.
Apparently my grandma (who’s about 70 and loves traveling) has seen the Aurora Borealis. You have to go to Greenland or some other place above the Arctic Circle in the middle of winter, and it’s freezing cold but the lights are still really beautiful. I want to go see them with her sometime. Provided she’s still able to go traveling.
Sometimes during strong solar storms it reaches farther south.
my grandma’s seen the northern lights, she lived in canada. i’ve only seen video footage, but my grandma tells me it’s nothing like the real thing.
why are the southern lights so unknown?
38- Don’t rub it in about the summer thing. We’re dying up here. Also, about the evil dog. Was it an ex-attack dog or something? And was it being evil the only reason for it being put down, or did it have a disease or something?
My favorite color is turquoise. It’s so blue and shiny….and sort of greenish. I collect turquoise pebbles, and my shelves are lined with the things. Also, about the night sky thing, I personally like the color of the sky during a full moon during the fall.
Fav colors: Jubilee green, Hot pink, black.
42- Eep!
*puts on more sunscreen*
This spring break, I’m planning on spending my time making a detailed map of the solar system with interesting facts about all the moons and planets. *is a nerd*
A few years ago on Halloween night, the Aurora Borealis unexpectedly turned up and lit the sky for all of us trick-or-treaters. I didn’t know that it could show up that far south. It was pretty cool.
39 + 44 – she wasn’t sick, but she had attacked me, my mom, my dog, my cousins dog, my grandpa, my dad, my uncle, my uncles girlfriend, and almost everyone else in our family because he never trained her. Then she attacked one of the guests who was staying at my uncles lodge, and to avoid a lawsuit/more attacks like this, he had to put her down.
40 – I have only been here a month, and so I havent seen them yet. Do you know what month they’re in?
Yeah, the AB ws pretty cool. I was sick that year and didn’t go trickortreating. It sucked.
for march break (next week) i am going skiing in quebec. my favrit colour (haha yes. the right way to spell the word) is green.
my favorite color is rainbow. Why? because i can.
Hopefully, I will get to go see my best friend (she lives in a different state) and post some of my art on her DeviantART. I also want to start working on my Samhain (Halloween) costume.
My favorite colors happen to be: silver, black, blue, white, green, brown and purple. Quite a mouthful to put on a survey with those measly short lines, isn’t it?
52- Did you know Samhain actually marks the end of the year? … Or the beginning, I can’t remember. Maybe both.
It also reminds me of that boring perfume called Samhain that smelled like candles and was all sharp and icky.
I wonder what I’ll do for next Halloween?
52- What’s her Deviant name?
One of my friends saw AB in nothern West Virginia, oddly enough. Pretty far south for the northern lights.
Samhain…I’ve never heard it called that before. Where does the name come from?
55 – It’s an old name of Hallowe’en, (yes, that was too) and the ancient Celts (or something like that) used it. It plays a huge role in An Acceptable Time , which is the fifth book in the Wrinkle in Time series (whatever it may be called).
53- Very fun to yell out “Happy new years!” then. Gets odd looks
It’s one of those non-phonetic Celtic spellings — rhymes with “brown” or “now, in.”
ROBERT! I’m glad to see your post. That came in 5 minutes ago, actually! Have you seen any other comments back in GAPA Moderation central? As I have said on the random thread, I seem to have killed the blog for the most part…
Red-tailed HAWK
Plans for Easter Break- None. My easter doesn’t even happen over Easter Break.
Favorite Color- Definitely orange. Or maybe purple.
My favorite color right now is black. I’m depressed right now. Probably hormones.
can we have a neopets thread?
Hallowed evening. Bleh. Don’t like it.
I smell of sunscreen.
Thanks for telling me what it means (in reference to my last post about an eon ago)! A Wrinkle in Time…I read the first book and was captivated, then read the second one and decided I liked the first one better as a separate entity, so I stopped. Pathetic, I know. My apologies to Madeline L’Engle & fans!
So it’s pronounced “Sow-in?” Neat.
“I detect a change in the winds, says I.”
-Mr. Gibbs
Sorry, don’t know her name.
Samhain marks the beginning of the year.
Hmm. It looks like most people here have a week off in March. In New Hampshire, we get a week off in February and a week off in April. Same for Massachusetts, but northern New Hampshire and Massachusetts traditionally have their vacation one week before southern New Hampshire does.
My favorite colors: black, red and silver.
i haven’t gotten any plans. Unless you count trying to deal with my very horrid life right now. *hides under bed. darnit. it’s a futon. hides in bed*
I liked an acceptable Time. Some of her books get too christian sometimes. However, Many Waters was still fun.
favorite colors: black. Silver. Scarlet. Black.
67- [gasp] Another Newhampshireite! So far we’re up to three on our Count of Musers that Live in NH. I think Hawk is the other one.
69- You mean Raven of the Hawk? Because that would also be me.
Randomness: I actually only have 17 spdzk points, for some reason my name wasn’t updated…
Yeah, one of the birds of prey.
69–*narrows eyes, leans in secretively* Creeping on the blog, eh?
I have no plans – and my favorite color is and will always be green. It’s positive.
@11 – How about…..
School lunches. How are they?
My school’s (or is that schools’?) are okay – nobody minds them and we all want to go to lunch, but is that just our stomachs acting?
/gradster(1)/
74 – Rubbery omelets. ‘Nuff said.
73- Creeping? I’m not a petafile, if that’s what you mean…
74- We don’t have school lunches. You have to bring your lunch, go hungry, or buy something at the pizza shop or the kiosk.
76, That would be pedophile, I assume, dear? The people on this blog have very pedophilic thoughts, sometimes. Just because someone creeps doesn’t mean they have anything to do with pedophilia. o.0 ;D
I love spelling. ;D
77- I love spelling too! I won my county’s spelling bee.
My school’s lunches suck. And I go to a Catholic school, so paying for the lunch is mandatory, even if you don’t take it… And the mac and cheese? It looks like puke.
78- I have never even won a class spelling bee, so congrats. I really just like fussing over other people’s spelling mistakes.
Hmmm. I bring my own lunches,mostly.
So do I; I have a really big problem with it. Like, I’ll look in the newspaper and they’ll have something spelled wrong, and I’ll just look at my mom and say, “Should I write a complaint letter?”
kokon?
when was-is th kokon?
and where?
81- March 23, noon, Spokane WA.
Kokonventioneers: I’d feel better if you’d ask your parents to e-mail the GAPAs (gapa @ musefanpage.com).
83- All right. Will do. I’ll email mi padre right now.
Daddy emailed you. Although I suppose you’ll see that soon enough!
10 DAYS TILL KOKONVENTION!!!82- Argh! I thought it was on the 22!
11 DAYS TILL KOKONVENTION!!!
I’m frustrated with my computer. It keeps on moving back an hour on the clock. I have to change it every day.
80- There’s a spelling mistake in Harry Potter. Thousands of kids will read that mistake. And not notice.
By the way, um, why are you called “Soren?”
Gah, where is the mistake? Must correct.
I’m called Soren because that is the name of the main character I play in a RP with my friends. She’s awesome. Way cooler than I’ll ever be.
89- Oh. Ok. *dies laughing* Sorry, it’s cultural. “Soren” is the devil’s name that people use when they don’t want to say “Satan” or “Lucifer” because they are scared that he’ll notice and hunt them down. (Hey. it’s an OLD country here. It’s traditional. ) So, it’s a curseword for people who don’t like to curse. Like “darn”. So just imagine that my name is “darn” and you’ll see the humor.
86- It is. I’m sorry. I keep forgetting. But it is.
I guess I haven’t really said when my break starts, have I? Well, It’s this Friday! w00t! *Jumps up and down*
So I’ll still be in school for most of tomorrow while the GAPAs are working on the blog.
Thanks again for the work, GAPAs, I don’t think many people have said enough about that…
Red-tailed HAWK
Vixen: I know the typo! I know it! Pick me! Pick me!
And isn’t Soren the name of that owl in Ga’Hoole?
Arrgh! We’re slipping again!
Spelling mistakes bug me, but grammar mistakes irritate me even more. When people say things like, ‘We have less people on our team,” I always want to say, “You mean fewer people.” But they always get irritated because that’s an obnoxious thing to do. Sometimes I can’t help myself, though. *Sigh*
93- REVEAL!
95- I correct my english teacher if she makes a reealy bad mistake. But I do it in a way so that it doesn’t sound like a correction.
She says “Hule hops are fun.” I say: “Hula hoops were invented in the fifties. “
Spelling mistakes bug me probably quite a bit more than grammar mistakes (which also highly irritate me). Of course, many people I know have used me as a human spell-check since I made it to the National Spelling Bee last year.
Plot holes bother me more than spelling or grammar mistakes. But both are pretty annoying.
97- Did you? Cool. Wait… Is that why your name is “speller?”
96- Hermione’s middle name is not ‘Jean’. It’s Jane. THAT was the typo. The second-edition copies are supposed to not have that typo.
100: yes! and in the UK edition of the Sorcerous stone there’s another one:
I think this is a bad idea, scowled Hermione. (Or something like that. The point is, no quotation marks.
)
internet/IM/texting lingo makes me think violent thoughts. i can’t even understand half of it!! everywhere i turn there are groups of letters like ‘ttyl’ and ‘bb’ and ‘giyf’ and ‘pos’ and g2g’ and ‘rly’ and ‘wtver’ and ‘ur.’ and ‘LOL’!!! AAARRRGGHH!!! THE THREE LETTERS THAT WILL SINGLEHANDEDLY DRIVE ME INSANE!! ‘LOL’!!!
102- LOL.
I was wondering how there can be mistakes in books. I’ver read bookes that say ‘com’ instead of ‘come’ and stuff like that. Don’t publishers have spellcheck???
103- That’s nothing. I’ve seen “wouldqqqq.”
102- Even worse is when it’s “lol.” *sniffle* My beautiful capitals where hast though gone?
104-
102- I also hate that. The best riff on it I ever saw was an LOLCats picture of a Mesopotamian seal. The caption was “im in ur.” (Ur was an ancient Mesopotamian city.)
(103) Vixen,
Copy editing isn’t what it used to be. Publishers (including the publishers of Muse) have trouble making a profit nowadays, and one way they save money is by hiring fewer employees. As a result, book manuscripts and proofs really don’t get the same scrutiny they once did.
J. K. Rowling’s books are particularly error-prone, I’ve noticed, at least in the first editions. I suspect that the publishers were so eager to get them into print that they whisked them off to the printer with barely a glance at the text. In the early books, it seemed to me that the American editions had fewer typos than the British ones did. My hypothesis is that editors caught many of them while Americanizing the language. Again, I suspect that they did that more assiduously in the early books, when the first British editions came out before the American ones did.
Ah, spelling mistakes… If you’re talking about hp, I will say this: from the bit that I read when I was little, I realized the way the characters talked in the book did not exactly show them to be intelligent. They exhibited bad english, spelling-wise and grammar-wise. And with millions of children reading these books, why do we wonder where all of the terrible spelling and grammar pops up from in our children? Of course everyone has some errors, and even I say “Like” more than I’d
likewish to, but… Just read some posts on the blog even… Random example: “Yeah me and blah were like, talking and he was like, how could…” You get the pictureRed-tailed HAWK
108- It’s just more proof that publishing and books are nowadays centered around money instead of literature.
104- o.0 Ok. That’s just scary.
My pet hate is firing up a new wordprocessor, DTP package, or more or less anything nowadays that uses text. I guarantee that :
1. The software was written in America.
2. It has a spellchecker, which is set to “auto” by default.
3. It uses the American English dictionary
4. I have no idea how to tell the perishing thing I’m English, or even turn it off.
So when I type “colour” or “aeroplane” or “speciality” or “panelling”, I get annoying red lines, and suggestions on how to correct those words to make them wrong. And it’s never even heard of “spiffing” or “gorblimey” or “Budleigh Salterton”.
So I fume gently, read the manual (which I should have done in the first place) and set it to British English. And it’s STILL never heard of “spiffing” or “gorblimey” or “Budleigh Salterton”. So I just shut it down and have a cup of tea to calm the old nerves.
111- This is an outrage! How could it not know such well-established, common words?
(I haven’t heard of “gorblimey” or “Budleigh Salterton” either, and I’m not sure about “spiffing.” )
Can I post?
(Sorry for being off-topic, I just have to see if it works now.)
109- Well, yeah they didn’t speak grammatically… no one actually does, using vernacular in books during speech can make books more believable.
111- In Microsoft Word, if you right click the word, and click “Add,” It won’t underline it anymore and puts it in it’s wordbank. Your’s might have that option somewhere?
BY THE WAY what does “spiffing” mean and how quickly do you think I can get it into my everyday vocabulary?
(114) “Spiffing” means “excellent” or “jolly good.” I imagine you could adopt that in short order.
When I was in 1st and 2nd grade, my nickname was “The Living Dictionary”. I am a grammar + spelling vigilante! Unfortunately, many of my friends still don’t know the difference between your/you’re and their/there/they’re, and we’re in high school! I think that at least part of the problem is that their schools didn’t teach grammar or spelling. I bet less than half of my year knows what a prepositional phrase is, let alone a gerund.
*chuckles* Once, in eighth grade, a teacher’s aide edited my English paper, and among her comments was the word “arguement”. I wasn’t inclined to take her revising advice after seeing this little gem.
115- spiffing answer, Lady Bunniful.
(117) *curtsies*
I was re-reading (for the fifty seventh time) the sixth Harry Potter, and I found that the word “fog” was spelled “fug”. At first I thought the printer just hadn’t printed the top of the o, but then I noticed the little line under the u.
I think I’ve noticed more than that in HP, but that’s all I can remember right now.
Re: Internet Lingo- Not appropriate for MuseBlog, but I love it. Usually, I can understand every bit of it, and if I don’t, there’s always Wikipedia. lol rotflmao tasmf
Grammer dosn’t bother me so much. I make tons of grammer mistakes.
You know what I hate? People telling me that something I say “isn’t a word”. If somebody says it, and it has a meaning, then guess what? It’s a word in my book. Ain’t is in the dictionary, as is lastly. Get over it. That’s what’s so cool about language, it’s like a kingdom of animals. Each word changes, mutates, grows different meanings, sprouts off synonyms, changes spellings… people should read the book Frindle more. It’s a really good one. “What makes a word a word, Nicholas? You do.”
111 – Aw, man. That’s terribibble!
119 – I love Frindle!!
Yes, Soren is the name of the owl in Guardians of Ga’Hoole. But the difference is that he is a male, and I’m a girl.
111: *GASPS* You are not in italics! *screams. cries. bangs head on keyboard* dfdsfhdsdsfdsjv.mmd<fekvhslkcekredkjfdsihfdfcu7gydxbkndoxdia<,m.
This can’t be happening!!!!!! NNOOOOooooo! I will not let it be!!!!!! AAAARRRRRHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
:cries:
122- There, there. *pats awkwardly on the back* It’s Paul Baker. He defies normality.
121- I laughed when I read that book too. There’s just something about being named after the devil in a kid’s book.
Alright. I’m over it.
(122) Feel better now?
124- The devil? He’s an owl. Nyra’s the evil one, the hagsfiend.
I own all of the books out.
125- I…I think I’ll be ok. *shudders and sobs*
126: ‘Soren’ is the danish word for the devil when we don’t want to mention him/her. The other word is ‘pokkers’. They are very mild cursewords. Just think ‘darn.’
Oh my goodness. The sticky is losing its stickiness!
128- Oh. STICKYNESS. Well, isn’t that easy to fix???
129- No. The GAPAs have been working on it, but clearly it hasn’t worked…
(128, 129) Unfortunately, the stickiness is proving to be a problem. Any allegedly sticky thread unsticks as soon as a post is moderated for it. We paste them back but can’t always keep up.
As a temporary navigating aid, Robert has added a new Category called
“Top-o’-the-Blog Stuff”“At the Top of the Blog.”131- Ah. Yes. That’s a tough one.
Me no likes sticky.
Sticky gives me errors.
Me no likes errors.
They waste time.
I actually like the non-stickiness. I’m not sure why, but I like it better.
Whats all this about sticky things?! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
I agree… What stickiness is this?
(135, 136) “Sticky” threads are the ones held at the top of the main page — on MuseBlog, that’s the four monthly threads. Once they’re unstuck, they fall back into place in order of the time they were created.
Rebecca (137): How do you make them sticky?
(138) All we have to do is check or uncheck the little box that turns the stickiness on and off. Apparently it’s not a standard feature, however, as Robert had to hunt around for a plug-in that worked with our software set up.
That’s gotta be annoying.
Huh?
hey,ive got an idea. we could talk about…………………jelly beans! or……………………………..solid chocolate pink bunnies!!!!!!!!! yay!!!!!!!!!
Okay,getting serious.I think that Harry Potter has had a lot of spelling mistakes, but how could you misspell a word thats never been invented yet?Take “Avada Kedavra” for instance. You could spell it anyway you want to,like Avada Kedavera,and no one would care.
Or you could spell it “lakdjaodjakl” and still have it said “Avada Kedavra”. As long as it’s constant, I’m fine. If you start spelling “lakdjaodjak” as “alkdajoidal” I start getting mad.
101- Yeah, I know. The American one does, too. It’s fun to look at fanfictions with Hermione’s full name and see if they spell it Jane or Jean.
may I request a subject change to a discussion of this paper?
de-linkified paper: http: //www .andover. edu/ bracecenter/ StudentFellowsPapers/ Courtney_Fiske.pdf
I did not write the paper, I do not personally know the person who did; I found it via googling. (tip: google under domains with ‘.edu’ only if you want to find something more scholarly. If the GAPAs do not wish to let the mostly harmless paper through, (it is a bit long and pdf-y) then a general discussion of fairy tales and disney and such is requested.
Linkless link and new idea approved.
146- Will read it later. Right now I have to go do dishes. *scowl*
146 – I read about half of it. Personally, I completely agree with it, and I always hated Disney even when I was of an appropriate age for it, preferring the original forms of the fairy tales (which I loved).
I’m reading the article, I’m almost done with it.
I agree with most of the article, and I’m about to send it to, like, half my school.
What bothers me about Disney is that it is a twisted, one sided view of life and difficult for people to relate to. Their stories are full of saccharine lies. It frustrates me when people don’t realize that Disney wasn’t the origin of fairy tales and when they don’t know the original versions at all. Everyone deserves to hear the truth, to read fairy tales that reflect what they might experience and that teach them ways to handle their emotions in difficult situations.
152&everyone who thinks disney is the greatest thing ever-
Disney’s goal is just to get people to
buy stuff and their shows are just ads
for the products they sell and for
publicity for the music of the artists
they contract with. Its all for selling
stuff! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
anything against Walt Disney himself,
I think he is an inspiring person, but I
think the Disney company has wandered
too far from Disney’s original goals to
entertain. These days the Disney
company’s goal is just to make money
and sell stuff! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
*decides not to say anything*
155- I think MUSE is different because
it actualy seems to have values besides
just selling stuff! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
My personal favorite Disney movies aren’t based on fairy tales at all- The Lion King, National Treasure, and Atlantis: The Lost Empire.
I also like Treasure Planet, which is based on the novel Treasure Island.
156 et al-i realize that you’re wonderfully excited and may have a high sugar intake, and that’s great, but i think one exclamation point is sufficient to convey your sense of urgency/excitement/pride/whatever it is you’re using half a million exclamation points to convey.
and disney sequels should be shot in the face and then hung, drawn, and quartered. and stomped on by elephants. and then burned.
158-BUT I LIKE EXCLAMATIONPOINTS ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
[Excuse the snippage, but you have now exceeded your extravagant punctuation quota. The above should still get your point across. –Rebecca]
O.K., I’m going to take a dep take a deep
breath, calm down relax, get a
nice rest and come back to MuseBlog
tomorrow with less craziness *sigh* ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
155- Robert, how do you make those signature pages? The ones where various musers sign them? I just added the mousepad to my cafepress cart and was just wondering.
157- Yeah, Treasure Planet pwns.
157- I love Treasure Island. I will NEVER see Treasure Planet, because if I do I will want to die.
[Do not be alarmed. Lady B. is having flashbacks of academe. Please remain calm; she will recover shortly.]
(146) What do you think of the author’s decision to personify the Disney corporation as “he” instead of “it”?
Is it true that “criticizing Disney is akin to committing cultural heresy”? I was under the impression that Disney-bashing was a national pastime.
I wonder why Fiske left Sleeping Beauty out of the line-up, especially since she* attaches such importance to the impact of Walt Disney himself and that was the last fairy-tale movie he actually produced. She says she chose the “four most popular” — what was the reasoning behind her choice? What are its drawbacks? She also fails to reference any other Disney films — not the point of her paper, of course, but considering she defines certain values as characteristic of the Disney propaganda machine, seems to me she ought at least to ask the question of whether the studio’s other movies support or complicate her thesis.
Going by Fiske’s own descriptions of the films, couldn’t one make the argument that they critique the patriarchy by infantilizing masculinity (sidekicks, dwarfs) and depicting the irresponsibility of fathers?
Writers often undermine their own messages without realizing it. And critics often forget that audiences are not passive receptacles.
From the point of view of the audience, what is actually memorable, what makes the most impact? Does the average viewer leave the theater thinking, “whew, I’m so relieved Cinderella got her prince, after all” or “weren’t those mice cute”?
*For convenience of writing this comment, I’m making a judgment call that the author of this paper is likely female.
Read the article. Liked it a lot, even though I have not seen the Disney movies in question for quite a while, if at all.
Was it an article? I got the impression that it was a term paper someone had written for school.
Disney! Yeah!
I Hope to Sell my Script Frenzy Script to them. Or anyone.
I saw a few of the points that Lady Bunniful makes, and yes, I caught the calling of the Disney Corperation “he”. I thought that was a bit strange, but overall, I thought that it made a good point.
The article (or term paper, or whatever) only listed four fims, which I thought very closed-minded. They were all animations, too. That’s a bit weird, don’t you think? If they’re all the same, of course you’re going to find similarities between them.
163- [but I like your flashbacks! (I’m going to enjoy college, aren’t I?)]
Disclaimer: while I’m of a general agreement with Fiske, I’m not sure if my troubles with Disney are along the same track as hers. Well, they are, but in a different way. I am more bothered that the original tales, which were often feminist, were modified and she focuses more on the feminism. I’m really curious why she may have chosen Beauty and the Beast. Ideas?
Answers to 163: Personifying Disney as ‘he’ seems to reduce the corporation down to Disney himself. She seems to be pegging all of the points she makes onto Disney himself and not the corporation.
There seem to be two opinions on Disney-Bashing, one that it is perfectly acceptable to do so (MBers who have responded so far seem to be of this camp) and those that think, as Fiske put it, “cultural heresy”. Perhaps this division is among those whose knowledge of fairy tales comes wholy from Disney (what I have problems with) and those whose knowledge comes from multiple sources, Disney but also various picture books and story books depicting the same fairy tales.
Yes, it is odd. Sleeping Beauty would fit her thesis better than Beauty and the Beast, too. Perhaps she wanted a balance between movies being supervised by Disney himself and movies produced later.
Indeed one could. Quite. The movies take an absurd spin on the actions and stereotypes of all sorts it seems. Are there any truly strong characters in Disney? Are they all insecure?
When I saw Cinderella I remember hating it and thinking that my picture book of it was so much better. I was five though. The picture book had a rather Disney-ified version of the story though the illustrations were different. I don’t remember my five year old reason for hating the movie.
I love Lion King though.
Does anyone have thoughts on movies that Fiske did not cover?
Hm, going to have to disagree with the Disney-hate going around. Major hearts for Disney, including his rather warped fairy tales. Fairy tales get told and retold, and they’re never going to stay exactly the same. I just wish that people would read other versions or other stories.
I quite like Rebecca’s post, too. Actually, I thought that she should have referenced Sleeping Beauty instead of Beauty and the Beast, since using the latter weakened her argument. Her own points about it don’t really make sense: she seems to be saying that an independent, adventurous woman can’t make sacrifices or fall in love with a man.
I’ve actually been wondering about the fact that the more “feminist” Disney leads are all obviously non-European. Thoughts?
I didn’t see most of the new disney films but I remember adoring the old cartoons (no bashing Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse). The old books are incredible too. Personally, I think they’re wonderful animations and alhtough the quality occasionaly deterioates (I won’t cite any examples here), the redemption is that they make not-so-well-known stories acessible through a really nice medium (although I do agree that this function is speedily being replaced with a lets sell stuff obsession). And, I agree with 169, fairytales are meant to be retold to reflect changing cultures. Maybe the original ones are a little better, but still, fairytales are not meant to be static.
In short, I just rambled on for an entire post without saying anything, great! ‘m just going to post this and then try to forget it exists.
speaking of disney…. I like their old films. but cinderella 3? give me a break. and also: My friends and i are going to watch a large amount of the old diney movies next weekend.
My opinions on Disney:
I haven’t really seen enough animated Disney movies to have an opinion. I don’t mind that they’re re-telling the stories, and maybe they aren’t terribly feminist but I disagree with oxlin that the original stories were. I liked Snow White, and Sleeping Beauty though I probably wouldn’t anymore, and those are the only old ones I’ve seen.
Disney, like McDonalds and Wal-Mart, is EVIL!!!!!!!!! Fail to agree and MissSwann kills u
I like Mulan, too, which is based on a legend, but not technically a fairy tale, as I have read the original version of the legend and there was nothing supernatural in it.
Disney has its own very special charm and so long as its not seen as a substitute for the real fairytales (which are incredible) I don’t think there’s any problem with it. The old Disney was unbelievably imaginative and creative and fantastic. The new Disney is much less so, its really deteriorated into a commercial machine.
For me, Disney will always be the Disney of Bambie and Mickey Mouse and Fantasia. That Disney is unbelievable cultured and just a vital part of film. I definitely don’t feel the same attraction to the new stuff. Okay, I am submitting this before I ramble on for another twenty years!
*twitch* CHARM???? It’s a government-based, biased company with zero interest in you the person, but just in how fat you WALLET is! It destroyed an old man’s dream by selling useless crap to a public that blinds their children with advertisements!
(even though I like mulan, POTC, and treasure planet)
172- I don’t know if I really meant that the originals were strictly feminist but they did give the women more realistic options than Disney seems to.
Disney does has its place but I don’t want to see it replace the old fairy tales. I’d like people to know the old stories and realize that the Disney version isn’t the only one.
I enjoy saying “In the book, she dies at the end” to anyone within earshot who’s talking about or watching The Little Mermaid. Yes, I am evil.
177 – Definitely. In my English class the other day we had to put on a short skit about a fairy tale or well known story and all anybody seemed to know was the Disney movie versions. It was horribly annoying because I haven’t seen any of those.
176- Yes, Mr. Disney himself was a great guy. An environmentalist, one of the founders of People to People Student Ambassadors, and a friend of Von Braun and supporter of Apollo.
Mulan, Treasure Planet, The Lion King, Atlantis: The Lost Empire and National Treasure rock my socks.
History leaves us lessons and legacies. To ignore or embrace them is our choice.
I like Looney Tunes better than Mickey Mouse.
My favorite Disney movie is Pocahontas (spelling?)
I didn’t see most of the disney movies as a kid. So I’m watching them now. (despite the fact that I’m in college) I really liked Treasure Planet, out of all the ones I’ve seen so far.
I saw Treasure Planet but only half of it because i was late to the movie theater! I rented it and saw the first half and then had to paste the two halves together! It didn’t make much sense.
173-*Promptly agrees*
Red-tailed HAWK
183- It doesn’t make much sense when you see it right thru.
183- Is your name perhaps Macey?
178- HAHAHA, so do I!
185 – It makes much more sense if you’ve read or seen Treasure Island.
181- Yes! Looney Tunes is SO much better then Disney. Except for the Lion King, maybe.
Lesser known Disney film: Der Fuehrer’s Face aka Donald Duck in Nutziland. I found a bunch of other propaganda cartoons actually, Looney Toons as well, though the names contain unsavory racial slurs. My friend did a report on Disney, that’s how I knew about the first one.
Somewhat related: How many of you have been to Disneyland? I have an annual pass, I recently got sick sitting on the train for three hours at night. harhar.
(189) Axa, I used to pass Disneyland on my way to the orthodontist. I never managed to persuade my mom to alter our destination. Whatever the many faults of the corporation, Disneyland is infinitely preferable to the evils of orthodontists. (For the record, I have never been to Disney World.)
Here’s how sheltered I was as a child — when my dad went to Vietnam, one of my first thoughts was, “now we get discount tickets to Disneyland.”
178- Oh yes. I like to do that too. Not about TLM, though. I’ve never seen that one.
I went to Disney World for Christmas 2002. Very nice. Epcot was my favorite park.
I hated EPCOT.
165 – Sorry, yes, it seemed like a term paper, not an article.
The Disney movies that are interpretations of fairy tales are fine for entertainment, as long as nobody takes them too seriously. They’re movies, after all, and made to reflect whatever the corporation thinks the public will like. That’s not to say you should like them because they’re harmless, but you shouldn’t immediately dislike them either. I would say (keeping in mind that I have barely seen any of these reworked fairy tales) that the movies are good and sweet and entertaining but not to be used as a model for how to live your life.
On a related topic, who has seen the movie Enchanted, a kind of self-parody, and what do you think it says about how Disney has changed its themes?
I’ve never been to Disney World/Land, although I’d like to, if only just because I’d like to know what Epcot is.
195- It’s the mini-park dedicated to world cultures and cutting-edge technology. EPCOT is an acronym for Experimental Prototype Community Of Tomorrow.
195/196-Epcot is great. I went to Disney something (the Florida one) a few times when I was little, and seeing all the cultures in Epcot was always my favorite part. I think Disney is only fun if you’re under 10 years though, after then it might be a bit too childish.
My sister used to be obsessed with the Aristocats and Lady and the Tramp. I despise both. The new Disney movies are worse.
I like the music in the Disney Princess movies though.
*sings* Under the seaaa! Darlin’ it’s betta’ down where it’s wetta’ take it from meeee!
Very catchy.
I love Mulan!!! Those square horses scare me, though.
Let’s get down to business
To defeat the Huns
Did they send me daughters
When I asked for sons?
You’re the saddest bunch
I ever met
But you can bet
Before we’re through
Mister, I’ll make a man
out of you
Tranquil as a forest
But on fire within
Once you find your center
you are sure to win
You’re a spineless, pale
pathetic lot
And you haven’t got a clue
Somehow I’ll make a man
out of you
I’m never gonna catch
my breath
Say good-bye to those
who knew me
Boy, was I a fool in school
for cutting gym
This guy’s got ’em
scared to death
Hope he doesn’t see
right through me
Now I really wish that I
knew how to swim
(Be a man)
We must be swift as
the coursing river
(Be a man)
With all the force
of a great typhoon
(Be a man)
With all the strength
of a raging fire
Mysterious as the
dark side of the moon
Time is racing toward us
till the Huns arrive
Heed my every order
and you might survive
You’re unsuited for
the rage of war
So pack up, go home
you’re through
How could I make a man
out of you?
(Be a man)
We must be swift as
the coursing river
(Be a man)
With all the force
of a great typhoon
(Be a man)
With all the strength
of a raging fire
Mysterious as the
dark side of the moon
(Be a man)
We must be swift as
the Coursing river
(Be a man)
With all the force
of a great typhoon
(Be a man)
With all the stength
of a raging fire
Mysterious as the
dark side of the mooooooon!!!!!!!!!
And that, my friends, was from off the top of my head.
194 – I did see Enchanted. I really liked it, partly because I’ve been thinking all my life that a Disney princess wouldn’t last 2 minutes in the real world.
I hate that when they make a script out of the movies that can be preformed by schools, they have to dumb it down. We’re doing “Aladdin Jr.”, and I saw a version of “Mulan Jr.”. Horrible.
200 – Odd. We’ve always done full musicals at our school. The one Shakespeare play we did was abridged, but not quite Twelfth Night Jr. What really bugs me is that everything is highly censored. (Yes, even “You’re a Good Man, Charlie Brown” isn’t completely appropriate for them. Lucy swears once in the original play.) It was rather stupid doing a version of Twelfth Night in which Sir Toby Belch drinks milk (never mind that I still had the line “Your quaffing and drinking will undo you.”)
201 — Are you serious? Sir Toby Belch drank milk??? The problem is, if you take important parts of that out, parts of the story stop making sense. Hmph. -gets angry at administrators in general- WAIT NOT YOU GAPAS! All administrators except for you guys.
Anyway, if it was good enough for the Bard to write, it’s good enough for audiences to tolerate. (<– not strictly true. but whatevs, deal. it supports my point.) and yes i am not entirely sane right now. sorry for any scarring that might occur.
I recently found a book by the Opies about the original Fairy tales in my house.
198- I LOVE THAT SONG!
I think Disney princesses are just a tad overrated.
204- I know, right??? I have moves, too. I did it for the talent show.
This chameleon needs to morph.
Okay… morph into… Princesses in real life.
Hey, it’s an idea.
You mean in the present day, or the past?
208 – Either, I guess. Just not la-di-dah princesses who break out into song every few minutes.
202 – I agree. I always felt rather silly pulling away Sir Toby’s milk carton and saying “Your quaffing and drinking will undo you.” And I was a bit irked when my teacher changed the line, “Sometimes methinks I have no more wit than a Christian or an ordinary man” the day of dress rehearsal, because someone said it was offensive to their religion.
210- but, but, wasn’t shakephere a cristain, or was then line not with chritstian at first?
209- Okay. Kaiulani was a princess of Hawaii durring the Victorian Era, when it was still an independant country. The first part of my username comes from her name. When the American buisnessmen annexed her country, she visited President Cleveland to plead for her people’s independance. Cleveland wanted to force the buisnessmen out, but he lost the next election and Hawai’i became a US Territory and, much later, a state.
I’m still a bit confused… exactly how did Princess Diana die?
Have we changed the subject to real princesses?
214- Apparently, yes.
211 – No, the line was never meant to be offensive to Christians. Just proves that where I live, someone finds everything offensive.
214, 215 – Yeah, I think so.
Wait, are we talking about real-real princesses, or non break-out-in-song-every-30-seconds princesses?
217- I’m not sure.
Anastasia. She was a real princess. Um… Not sure what else to say…
oh, yes! Kai’ulaini! I had a book about her. I still do too.
MissSwann is a princess. In her fantasy land.
217 – Both! (also NOT Disney. I am fed up w/ Disney princesses.)
218 – Wasn’t she the daughter of a czar? And supposedly escaped before being shot at by a firing squad?
221- Something like that…
222 – Ah.
Well, Princess Elizabeth of England had to pretend she was a Catholic, because her sister Mary (yes, Bloody Mary) was burning Protestants randomly at the stake.
I recently read a book that is perhaps not muser appropriate but was regardless quite interesting. About various royalty and their side lives I suppose.
Royalty ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. One story in particular from aforementioned book that particularly struck me was about Christian VII of Denmark and Caroline Mathilde. Really a very nasty story, he was insane, had a conniving grandmother. Most of the monarchical stories we know about are ghastly, aren’t they? The commonly known ones anyway. Everyone dies horribly. Did you all know that George the Third went insane? Wiki even has a “mentally insane monarchs” page.
Of course illness runs in royal blood huh. Hemophilia from Victoria to Alexei in Russia. Bipolar disorder. Not to mention the stress. Even in figurehead governments as most notable monarchs are now. Princess Masako in Japan was rumored ot have been really kicked around in the Japanese court, some stuff about that a few years ago…
But really my main interest lies in the British royal family as tabloid fodder, to which I am exceedingly inclined.
219- The Royal Diaries one? I read that one, too.
The first thing then-princess Victoria said when she found out she would someday be queen was “I will be good.”
Thats really neat, I enjoy the Royal Diaries books.
) Ancient Egyptian culture is very fascinating….
I recently finished Sondok, Princess of the Moon and Stars, but, by far my favorite one was Cleopatra, Daughter of the Nile (daughter of the something,I don’t have the book handy
P.S. fascinating sounds cooler if you say it with a hard ‘c’, I but that’s the way the :idea:s say it!
Attention, welcomers! We have a newcomer in need of greeting.
226 – Welcome! *pies*
You have welcomers?
Sorry there, typo-
I think that Anastasia was a real princess. But the line between reality and fiction definitley blurred for me awhile ago, because right now I’m surrounded by flying pizzas.
Wow this muse blog is cool
“….I but that’s the way the….”
Is supposed to say “I bet”
Anyways
*halts reality*
What KIND of pies? If they’re boston cream, let ’em rip.
If not, then I’ll have to continue to halt reality until they are disposed of properly.
“Of course illness runs in royal blood huh. Hemophilia from Victoria to Alexei in Russia. Bipolar disorder.”
I never wanna be a princess, tooo fanciful… and you might not be able to get out of it being royal blood.
230 – You can’t get out of it, unless you kill yourself, or lose royal status. I think. *pies*
224- Yes, King George went quite mad. I can’t remember why, though. And then there was King Henry #, I believe, who had six wives which is quite awful.
*pies MaryKate with Boston cream pies*
230- Plus, if your country gets taken over, you’re essentially toast.
230- I believe that the illness (that hemophilia part at least) is caused by inbreeding. Because there are only so many royal people in the world, and there’s not enough variety.
Yes, the inbreeding makes things wonky. There was something like six major royal families in Europe before WWI, right? Or rather before the Romanovs were murdered in 1918. Hurm. Anyway they were all essentially related to each other, and continually marrying, so except for the Hohenzollerns in Prussia (who could marry out of royalty, I believe) everyone was everyone’s cousin if you want to look at it that way. Prince Albert was Victoria’s cousin. V. gross if you ask me.
Anastasia was a Grand Duchess :BBBB so yeah basically a princess. I am a super dork for the Russian Revolution and read about it a lot in elementary school. And no she did not escape, or at least the woman who posed as her (Anna Anderson) was a fake. Though I read they found bones they believed to be Alexei’s and “one of his sisters'” though whether it was Tatiana of Anastasia I supposed we shall never know. Altogether it is a bad business to be royalty. I should think it better to be some level of nobleman or woman, all the perks without the work.
226) I really liked that one too! I agree, very interesting…I haven’t read those in so long, have they ever done one centered in Greece or Rome? I would read that in an instant!
235- Ranks or nobility are difficult to grasp. And the proper titles for each rank. I hate it when someone says “Highness” in reference to a king or queen.
My sister reads the Royal Diaries. I don’t. Or at least I haven’t so far in my life.
325- they were all children (Or Grandchildren) of Victoria.
Oddly, The only family that still lived past WWI was England.
232 – He had six wives and three kids. The only reason he married so many times was to have male sons.
Oh, the horror of sexism!
Oooooo! I’ve never been here before………
So, we’re talking about princesses?
238) I know! And, I mean, it was his own genetic fault that he couldn’t get any male kids and he blamed his wives for it. Of course, “blamed his wives” is an understatement. He pretty much murdered them…….
226- AH HAH!!!!!! newcomer!!!!! *pies into somewhere in next tuesdasy*
239 – He beheaded two, most likely poisoned one, divorced two, and outlived one.
241-Not much of a nice guy, is he?
241-You have your Henry VIII facts off. He divorced Catherine of Aragon, the Spanish Lady, after she had a daughter, Mary. then, Henry broke from Catholicism. He then, married Ann Boleyn, who had Elizabeth. He then beheaded Ann on false charges of adultery and married Jane Seymour. Jane died of natural causes after having a son, Edward. Henry then married Ann of Cleves and divorced her, married Katherine Howard and beheaded her, and married Katherine Parr. After he married Katherine Parr, Henry died. The rhyme to remember the order is “Divorced, beheaded, died. Divorced, beheaded, survived.”
242 –
Heck yeah.
244- Maybe it was karma that he didn’t have a male son.
245 – He did have a male son, Edward. See 243. But he died on the throne when he was young — a teenager, maybe 15 or 16? Then Mary took over and was evil to basically everybody who wasn’t Catholic. And she was also mean to Elizabeth, her half sister. And then Mary died and Elizabeth became queen and everybody loved her.
And to add on to 243 — Before he married Catherine of Aragon [[he really liked those C/Katherines, didn’t he? Half of his wives were named that!]] he had a bastard son by Bessie Blount, a mistress of his. (Nooo the shrinking comment box has returned!!! *dies*)
243 – Sorry. It was not in chronological order, and he did divorce Catherine of Aragon, but most likely poisoned her too.
246 – Yes. He did have a male son, but was very sickly.
246-Thanks! I didn’t know that!
243- Actually, he broke from the Catholic church so that he could divorce Catherine no.1
Geez, I hate that guy.
So, I found out how to find someone’s phone, adress, and email using only their name. I am a stalker. I have Stephenie Meyer’s phone and adress :devil:
hey, just got home from snowboarding the last weekend on the mountain…it sucked. and i got sunburn. and my hands and feet are soaked and [pruned it was so wet, and my hindquarters region. im going to hurt a lot tomorrow, but hey! i nailed a frontside 180 off a QP! *does a little wet-butt shaking dance* oh well, leaving now.
Ah, the good old “Henry the eighth” discussion. There was a song released about that, in the seventies if I am correct…
*cue music*
“Henry the eighth I am I am..Henry the eighth
I am…I got married to the widow next door…she’s been married seven times before, Oh Henry…”
*Is hit with a pie*
Oh, and GAPAS?
I think HPBs, world domination, and pies fall into the ‘everything’ catagory…so isn’t it slightly redundant to say ‘Life, the universe, pies, hot-pink bunnies, world domination, and everything’, asit does on the top of the page?
*passes mouse over words*
Waiittt…is that a LINK?!? I must investigate!
Oh. it just goes back to the main page. How disappointing.
250) Scary!
*will never tell you my real name.*
252) Hey! I know that song!
Henry the 8th I am, I am……
*is pied*
Hmmmmmmm. I think we’ve kind of gotten off of the topic of princesses……
Henry VII: As horrible as he was to his wives, he was a great composer. it’s always hard for me to imagine such beautiful music from such a twisted guy as he was. Weird. Very weird. Some people think that he wrote the tune Greensleves.
Not that I’m sticking up for him- I disaree with his marial ideas, but I still love his music.
247, 249-Right, and right! Thanks!
256-Most people think he didn’t actually write Greensleeves. Fnord.
257~ Fnord? I’m confused, please enlighten. Nobody kmows, but there are those who think it is in his style. I’m not sure aoub that song in particular, but I have heard (and played) other songs that he did write, and find them to be very beautiful.
258- Fnord is a secret word used to keep people under control in some SF book.