Hot Topics, v. 2008
For topics that need to be handled with extra care. NO FLAMING.
Continued from version 2007.8.
Date: August 23, 2008
Categories: Ideas, Life, The Universe
Comments RSS TrackBack 412 comments
-
1
Zinc the sorceress/vampire and Leafygreen the squishy
in August 23rd, 2008 @ 16:31Hm, “Martha Speaks” is now a TV show. *gasp* *faints dead away*
First post?
0
0
-
2
Luna the Lovely
in August 23rd, 2008 @ 16:45So, what do you all think about the IOC’s ‘investigation’ into the one Chinese gymnast, He Kexin. I read the other day online that they were launching an investigation, based on the discovery by Mike Walker, a US computer security expert, that He was listed as being 14 on an official Chinese website listing dates of birth.
Then, the following day, there was another article, that the IOC, after only a matter of hours, had dropped the investigation, claiming that the government issued passports were proof enough.
I mean, seriously–government issued. Like the Chinese government has any qualms about pulling a fraud over on everyone else? They don’t care if one or more of their gymnasts are underage, if it means they will make a good impression on the world, and win more golds.
It’s just like (or, leastways, similar) to in the opening ceremony, when, the day of the ceremony, during rehearsal, a government official said that the little girl who was singing the Chinese anthem could not appear on stage, because she weas not “cute” enough. Instead, he made them substitute a “cute” girl on stage lip-sinking, while the not-so-cute girl sang from off-stage. I mean, seriously. The Chinese government doesn’t have the slightest bit of a problem perpetrating frauds. What’s one more?
0
0
-
3
Luna the Lovely
in August 23rd, 2008 @ 16:47Drat, could you make the italics so it’s only the word government that’s italicized? Thanks. (And I only mean the first ‘government should be italic, the others shouldn’t be) =)
0
0
-
4
Cliff Eagle
in August 23rd, 2008 @ 18:18Sorry for the random question, but what does Bo think about the Russian invasion of his homeland of Abkhazia? And what do you guys think?
0
0
-
5
Nthanda the Laugher
in August 23rd, 2008 @ 18:33And (more things to chew on) how about Obama’s nomination for VP? I haven’t heard much about him, actually, although I know that he’s been around for a while.
0
0
-
6
The Man For Aeiou
in August 23rd, 2008 @ 18:51Why did you C&P every thing? the last thread was v. 2008.
0
0
-
7
Luna the Lovely
in August 23rd, 2008 @ 18:545: To be honest, I know absolutely nothing about his VP choice (except the name….).
*lectures self* Bad LtL, very, very, very bad. You need to know these things, since you’re 18 (and can vote)!!!! *gives self weird look, and tells self to grow up*
0
0
-
8
Cat's Meow
in August 23rd, 2008 @ 20:422 – Did you hear about the controvery with the firework footprints? Apparently, while that really did happen, the footage that was shown on TV wasn’t real-time: it was an animation.
I think the whole scandal with the singing girl is stupid. I’ve seen pictures of the little girl, and there didn’t seem to be anything wrong with her. Besides, can you think how awful it would be to be told by your government that you weren’t cute enough?
7 – I know, I don’t either. I don’t think that many people know much about Biden. I don’t think many people even know his name yet, so at least you’ve got a leg up on them.
0
0
-
9
Eccentric the Afterthought (+points 180 Pie, 7 KAG, 8 Wung incarcerated)
in August 23rd, 2008 @ 22:311 – Whoa! How long has that been on?
7 – You know more than I do! I got so tired of all the hype after awhile that I stopped keeping up with the election details, so now I’m not really sure what’s going on.
8 – I agree about the singing girl. It’s understandable that China wanted everything to be perfect, but I think that the country would have made a much better impression if it had kept the original girl.
0
0
-
10
Cat's Meow
in August 23rd, 2008 @ 22:369 – Besides, she looked plenty cute to me, and she had an amazing voice.
0
0
-
11
Robert Coontz (Administrator)
in August 23rd, 2008 @ 22:37(6) TMFA, I don’t understand the question. The last Hot Topics thread was version 2007.8, created in December 2007. This is version 2008 and will become version 2008.1 if we create another one before the end of the year.
0
0
-
12
MissSwann
in August 24th, 2008 @ 09:21Hot topics? Well, Jim Sturgess is hot. I went to Hot Topic yesterday with my friend Elissa. I got a rockin’ Twilight shirt.
(Honestly, I don’t understand what we’re supposed to talk about).
0
0
-
13
speller73
in August 24th, 2008 @ 09:522 – Apparently now they are actually conducting investigations on 5 of the gymnasts.
0
0
-
14
Luna the Lovely
in August 24th, 2008 @ 10:168: Yeah, I heard about the footprints being an animation for viewers (but I missed that part of the ceremony, so it really didn’t mean that much to me). So there were actual firework footprints, then? They weren’t just entirely created for the TV viewing audience? I guess inthat case, it really doesn’t make sense to me . Why not just play footage of the real footprints?
0
0
-
15
The Man For Aeiou
in August 24th, 2008 @ 11:2711- mis read the last post as april 2008.
0
0
-
16
Zinc the sorceress/vampire and Leafygreen the squishy
in August 24th, 2008 @ 13:21On the radio show “Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me!” on NPR, they said this-
“…harassing and poking Alkyta, and now we shall go even further by annoying and infuriating them! How? By inviting them to a White House Press Conference!” It just cracked me up!
0
0
-
17
The Man For Aeiou
in August 24th, 2008 @ 13:3816- Yeah WWDTM!
Do we know if muse knows them? there both Chicago!
0
0
-
18
peary moppins
in August 24th, 2008 @ 17:362) They all look really young, but that doesn’t count for anything….can they actually take the medals back?
0
0
-
19
The Man For Aeiou
in August 24th, 2008 @ 17:5418- yes.
0
0
-
20
Nthanda the Laugher
in August 25th, 2008 @ 07:2416–I love that show! It’s my fave after Car Talk.
0
0
-
21
The Guy Your Parents Warned You About (200 piepoints, 14 wung points)
in August 25th, 2008 @ 15:3320- Car Talk is awesome!
0
0
-
22
Cliff Eagle
in August 25th, 2008 @ 16:07This is a hot topic exactly how?
0
0
-
23
Robert Coontz (Administrator)
in August 25th, 2008 @ 16:12Whenever we create a new thread, people seem compelled to post on it. If there aren’t any hot topics on the blog at the moment, nobody should be here — it’s that simple.
0
0
-
24
Vixen in the Eyes of Moon
in August 26th, 2008 @ 02:23I was surprised that no one pulled any political stunts at the Olympics this year. I was very dissapointed when that Danish dude took his medal with a smile since he had previously said in an interveiw that he supported Tibet. Personally, I would have gladly sacrificed my medal in order to yell, ‘Free Tibet!’ into the mike.
0
0
-
25
Nthanda the Laugher
in August 26th, 2008 @ 07:3324–Yeah, but on the other hand, the Olympics are supposed to be a politics-neutral place. Think about how the Russian and Georgian athletes cooperated–I think that’s better than speaking one’s mind.
0
0
-
26
peary moppins
in August 26th, 2008 @ 09:2325) There was this one man from ? that threw down his medal and walked away, he didn’t want it because it wasn’t gold.
0
0
-
27
Luna the Lovely
in August 26th, 2008 @ 10:1826. I don’t think it was so much that it wasn’t gold, as he though that the judges had ruled ufairly somehow. Anyways, here’s an article on it:
BEIJING (AP)—It turns out that the Greco-Roman wrestler who was stripped of his bronze medal for dropping it in disgust on the mat had reason for being angry, according to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.
Ara Abrahamian of Sweden complained to CAS that a penalty in the second round of his 84-kilogram bout on Aug. 14 against Italian Andrea Minguzzi wasn’t assessed until after the round ended. Once factored in, Abrahamian automatically lost the match. Minguzzi went on to win the gold medal.
Abrahamian’s coach was then denied a request for a video review, then the wrestling federation—the International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles, or FILA—refused to consider a protest.
The 28-year-old Abrahamian had to be restrained from going after matside officials following his loss to Minguzzi. He stormed away from the area where interviews are conducted and slammed a door to the dressing rooms.
After he was given his bronze during the medals ceremony, Abrahamian walked off the podium, went over to mat and dropped it in disgust and walked away. On Aug. 15, the International Olympic Committee disqualified Abrahamian and stripped his medal for violating the spirit of fair play during the medal ceremony.
The Armenian-born Abrahamian—who also lost a 2004 Olympic semifinal match on a disputed call—initially wanted judges in the bout tossed out and his medal restored. But in the end, he only wanted CAS to verify that the lack of an immediate appeals process is a loophole that needs to be fixed. It also was referred to as a violation of “the Olympic Charter and FILA’s own rules about fair play.â€
Judges said Abrahamian was right.
“We limit ourselves to ruling that FILA must, consistently with the (Olympic) Charter and general principles of fairness, establish for the future a jury of appeal to determine the validity or otherwise of complaints of the kind ventilated by (Abrahamian),†the judges wrote.
Elsewhere in the 20-page ruling, judges noted several times that FILA did not appear at a hearing.
0
0
-
28
peary moppins
in August 26th, 2008 @ 10:2727) Interesting. So in the end it was Fila that was wrong?
0
0
-
29
Cat's Meow
in August 26th, 2008 @ 11:1614 – They thought it would be too hard to follow with a helicopter. As a viewer, I couldn’t even see the difference until I was told about it.
19 – But they probably won’t.
25 – I agree. The Olympics shouldn’t be completely politics free, but it’s not the right venue to make a protest like that. The focus should be on the athletics, and on all the hard work that the athletes have put in to reach Beijing.
0
0
-
30
Cliff Eagle
in August 26th, 2008 @ 11:26Wow. I saw all the replays and it really looked like he did it because he was an idiot. Now I see his reasoning. Now, how do you explain Cuban taekwondoist-guy Angel Matos kicking the ref in the face?
0
0
-
31
Vixen in the Eyes of Moon
in August 26th, 2008 @ 11:36The Olympics are all about politics.
The Nazis came up with the ”pass the olympic torch from place to place” and that rings a few bells. the torch thing is pretty symbolic of power and progress, and then how china is proving how western it is by building that huge stadium??? And they don’t have any qualms about pro-china show-offs, but the y sure do about pro-tibet show-offs. now, I’m no lover of tibet with their child soldiers, but they are better than china.
0
0
-
32
Cat's Meow
in August 26th, 2008 @ 11:5231 – I don’t think they should be, though.
0
0
-
33
Luna the Lovely
in August 26th, 2008 @ 12:2328: That’s my understanding.
30: He has anger management issues and is a sore loser? =) Sorry, don’t really know anything about that, but from my quick 2 second research, that would be my guess…. =)
0
0
-
34
Nthanda the Laugher
in August 26th, 2008 @ 13:34Some of the judging in this year’s games was certainly questionable, though…although we really can’t complain, I mean, I think we did all right, hm?
0
0
-
35
The Man For Aeiou
in August 26th, 2008 @ 17:3924- Remember, the athletes would have been disqualifed if they say “FREE TIBET!” or something like that.
0
0
-
36
Cliff Eagle
in August 26th, 2008 @ 18:371960something: remember John Carlos’ fist in the air to symbolize Black Power? Or when Jesse Owens took down Hitler in Berlin?
Great Olympic moments that signified what the olympics were about. I think it would go down in history with those moments if an athlete yelled free tibet after being awarded a medal.
0
0
-
37
Turquoise, with 8 KAG points and 30 brain points, is at HIGH SCHOOL!
in August 27th, 2008 @ 10:33How about the Democratic National Convention? That’s an important topic.
Go Obama!
0
0
-
38
peary moppins
in August 27th, 2008 @ 12:23OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
0
0
-
39
Cliff Eagle
in August 27th, 2008 @ 14:27The good candidates this year were Richardson and Edwards. Obama has no experience and no values. Clinton is a psycho, and McCain is too old to be president- he can’t connect with the young demographic as well as one of the younger candidates. Huckabee is a Klansman, and Mitt Romney- well there you go. Mitt Romney is Mitt Romney. With that said, I give my support to Mr. McCain. (my political standing is Independent)
0
0
-
40
Piggy
in August 27th, 2008 @ 15:1139- Hm. I didn’t know there was a maximum age for president. Well, Obama’s not good because he can’t connect with the older demographic as well as McCain. Please don’t insult anyone like you insulted these various candidates. Huckabee a member of the KKK? I realise that you don’t like him, but that’s going too far. Don’t get me wrong, I also support McCain, but even so. And if you’re hinting that Romney is bad because he’s Mormon, you should be ashamed of yourself. MuseBlog is supposed to be friendly. If you’d get in trouble for saying something in school, don’t say it here. I apologize for my rant, but I don’t support that sort of speech.
37- What’s so important about it? It’s not like it’s neccesary for the democratic process. We’ve known for months that Obama would be nominated. Why do we need a convention? And, furthermore, why is it the only thing on TV? Why not Georgia? Why not Pakistan? Those are the important things going on right now.
0
0
-
41
Luna the Lovely
in August 27th, 2008 @ 15:1224: sitting in my physical geography class at college today, which is taught by a Chinese guy, whose english is unintelligible, he was showing us pictures on google earth, and showed us some location in tibet, and commented about liking tibet. Thinking of you, it was all I could do to restrain myself from screaming “Free Tibet!!!!” God, college is such a joke–biology is good, i have an english speaking teacher; math is taught by someone from russia or thereabouts–and the class is supposed to be analytical geometry and calc, we spent the whole lecture period today learning how to graph points on a coordinate system, distance between points, point-slope formula, slope of a line, etc.–hello, who didn’t learn that middle school or earlier????? And geog is just unintelligible, cuz the idiot doesn’t speak english. psych is fine, though, she speaks english.
37, 38: Not to get myself killed by you two, but Obama’s really not that great. He speaks well, but his words don’t mean anything. To use my sister’s example: “In one speech, he says his uncle helped liberate Auswitch (sp?), in the next, it was his father or cousin, and then it’s oh, yes, itwas my uncle, but it wasn’t Auswitch he liberated, it was another concentration camp.”
Is that really the kind of person you want in office? Not that I”m saying McCain is anything great, I’m not all that sure I like him, either, but perhaps he would be the lesser of two evils.
0
0
-
42
MissSwann
in August 27th, 2008 @ 16:00To the O! To the B! To the A! To the M A yeah girls that’s Obama! (made that up, lol…)
0
0
-
43
Luna the Lovely
in August 27th, 2008 @ 16:1542: ok……
0
0
-
44
Syllabub
in August 27th, 2008 @ 16:17Is anyone here a McCain fan?
(I’m not)
0
0
-
45
♫ Agrrrfishi (Aggie),of 40 brain points and 14 spdzk points and 14 piepoints♫
in August 27th, 2008 @ 16:5644- I wouldn’t say I’m FAN, necessarily, but I do support him. Please do not flame me to death for being a Republican, even though I doubt any of you would do that. I have good reason to be.
0
0
-
46
Cliff Eagle
in August 27th, 2008 @ 18:1540- As a citizen of MA, I know about mitt romney. In no way am I hinting that Romney is bad because he is a mormon. In four years as governor, Mitt Romney has had several corrupt incidents- including tying his dog on the roof during a family vacation, and promising Michigan voters to bring the car jobs back- an impossible task. I don’t know what school youre in, but where I’m from, I can express my political beliefs without punishment. Including the bit about Huckabee being a klansman- his beliefs are the same of most in the Ku Klux Klan and there is no difference between him and the Grand Dragon as far as I’m concerned. I’d rather vote for Osama Bin Laden than Huckabee or Romney. Before you start flaming my beliefs, I suggest that you learn the facts.
0
0
-
47
Random Kokopelli & Tokyo
in August 27th, 2008 @ 21:1344-I’m not really republican or democrat, but I think I suport Obama.
(But this is coming from someone who only studies politics by watching the news.)
0
0
-
48
The Man For Aeiou
in August 27th, 2008 @ 22:0045- I’ll give you pie *pies*
0
0
-
49
mary poppins
in August 28th, 2008 @ 11:06If I had to choose, I would choose Obama.
McCain has his values, and Obama has his.
And of course, I’m a Democrat.
0
0
-
50
♫ Agrrrfishi (Aggie),of 40 brain points and 14 spdzk points and 14 piepoints♫
in August 28th, 2008 @ 11:5348- *wipes pie off face* That, too.
0
0
-
51
Kagcomix
in August 28th, 2008 @ 12:438- what happened with the girl?? please excuse my ignorance.
I seriously don’t understand your election system. it is really complicated and confusing. I don’t have anyone I’m cheering for. I think I’m more inclined to want Obama to win. but that is an uninformed opinion as I don’t really know anything about american politics.
0
0
-
52
I-Man
in August 28th, 2008 @ 12:46I saw a video on victimization today in History, and it’s just amazing. Remember that one woman who sued Mc’Donalds after the coffee incident? It’s like that, only now nearly everyone in this country is doing it. That’s not what bugs me, though. What REALLY ticks me off is that a shocking majority of these people are getting away with it! I mean, they’re stealing from people with actual disabilities like blindness and regular people, they’re leeching money from the government, and at the rate they’re going, they could destroy our economy, and START THE END OF THE WORLD!
0
0
-
53
MissSwann
in August 28th, 2008 @ 15:0043- *bow*
52- We need to burn something!!!!!
0
0
-
54
Amelia Peabody
in August 28th, 2008 @ 19:14Who thinks that Bill Clintons speech at the DNC was awesome?
He has mostly redeemed himself for all the unintelligent things he said during the primaries/caucuses.
“The world has always been more impressed by the power of our example than by the example of our power.”
Best line EVER.
0
0
-
55
Ê‘yviva
in August 28th, 2008 @ 20:0751- What country are you from?
and about the girl, the chinese government picked one girl to sing the anthem because she had a good voice. they then decided she “wasn’t cute enough” so they had a cuter girl lip synch.
45- Why do you support McCain?
almost everybody else: Why do you suport Obama?
0
0
-
56
Dodecahedron
in August 28th, 2008 @ 22:27I have not been following national politics very well. I won’t be able to vote until the next election, so it’ll only annoy me without doing any good.
Unlike my elders, I don’t support McCain because he is of high moral character despite holding views I disagree with.
Unlike those of (roughly) my generation, I am not obsessed with Obama because he is going to change the world and isn’t Hillary.
To me, it is important that birth control and abortion is available to all women, and I expect it will only become more important as I age. I am strongly in favor of gay marriage as well. Public schools should be made better, funded more, and No Child Left Behind doesn’t work. I would prefer that wars be ended, or that we be removed from them, but it’d be nice if people didn’t start killing each other because we left. Alternative energy’s good and I’d appreciate the economy not crashing too. I suppose I am in favor of Obama, then, since most of my opinions are his?Actually I want to move to Britain, the EU is apparently a good place to be. Or so I hear… *coughhistoryprojectcough*
0
0
-
57
Nthanda the Laugher
in August 28th, 2008 @ 23:32K–Barack Obama’s speech tonight was AWESOME. Even if you don’t support him, you have to admit that his rhetoric was very effective. (Sorry, you can blame my AP English teacher for that sentence.)
0
0
-
58
Syllabub, who would love to have some points!! (please)
in August 29th, 2008 @ 07:27I thought Hillary’s speech was great. She made a lot of good points in her speech. Did anyone else see it?
I haven’t seen Obama’s speech but we recorded it since my family doesn’t like to stay up late and watch commercials.
0
0
-
59
♫ Agrrrfishi (Aggie),of 40 brain points and 14 spdzk points and 14 piepoints♫
in August 29th, 2008 @ 08:2455- Because I think that his views are correct, such as his opinions on abortion, global warming, Iraq, and things similar to those, but those are my main three.
0
0
-
60
Cliff Eagle
in August 29th, 2008 @ 08:3156-Are you kidding? I think that the EU is less like a union than a racist country club, denying access to poor countries and Muslim countries alike. If a state in the US, say, California, became predominately Muslim, would the US allow California to be in the Union? The EU has continually refused to let Turkey into the union for a number of made up reasons, but most of all that Turkey is mostly muslim.
0
0
-
61
Shadowkat
in August 29th, 2008 @ 10:01I tried to stay away, but I just couldn’t. Someone flame me.
So who knows about the plans to make an NAU?
0
0
-
62
peary moppins
in August 29th, 2008 @ 12:1461) NAU….?
0
0
-
63
Luna the Lovely
in August 29th, 2008 @ 12:2257: I didn’t watch, but, based on an article I had to read for psych, those who don’t support Obama, probably would not have found even his rhetoric effective:
How the Brain Helps Partisans Admit No Gray
By Shankar Vedantam
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, July 31, 2006; A02[Sorry, Luna, if you want to summarize the main points, or quote from a paragraph or two, that’s fine, but posting the article in its entirety steps into copyright infringement. –Rebecca]
0
0
-
64
Luna the Lovely
in August 29th, 2008 @ 12:34Just got an email from my dad–it is now official, Sarah Palin (and yes, you should all know who she is–she is, afterall, the governor of my home state
–ok, so maybe you shouldn’t know) is McCain’s VP choice. So, if y’all vote for McCain(not that I’m saying you should, I don’teven know who I’m voting for yet), we could make history–the first ever female vice president.That sounds kinda cool, actually.
0
0
-
65
Ê‘yviva
in August 29th, 2008 @ 13:5958- It was a pretty good speech.
64- As she’s your governor, could you provide some information on her other than her gender?
I think McCain picked a female VP to try and garner support from disgruntled Hillary supporters.
0
0
-
66
Syllabub (20 pie points)
in August 29th, 2008 @ 14:0565- I agree.
0
0
-
67
Luna the Lovely
in August 29th, 2008 @ 15:14Rebecca–(in my post 63):
didn’t think about that…*runsandhides*65: Oh, gosh, um, I really don’t know much about her….According to my dad, “she is a tax and spend liberal the likes of which we have never seen before.” He believes her to be responsible for “extremely high taxes on the oil industry” and also says she is responsible “for government giveaway programs.” “Her mantra seems to be tax the “rich” and give to the poor – she outdoes even Ted Kennedy in that arena.”
he also says she has no experience on the national level (probably true, given that she comes from a small (6500ish) town)
Anyways, dad doesn’t paint a very appealing picture of her as a vp choice, but, like I said, I really don’t know much about her–you could try googling her.
Sorry I’m not much help….I know (sadly) very little about politics–not good in a registered voter, who will be voting for president…..
0
0
-
68
Luna the Lovely
in August 29th, 2008 @ 15:18Rebecca–can I post the URL? (for the article on politics and the brain?)
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/30/AR2006073000579_pf.html
hope this doesn’t come out as a linky…..
0
0
-
69
Luna the Lovely
in August 29th, 2008 @ 15:18drat–it did.
[I delinkified it. The Washington Post may not qualify as mostly harmless, but at least it’s a known quantity.
–Rebecca]
0
0
-
70
Kagcomix
in August 29th, 2008 @ 15:2652- i’m sorry, what? could you explain. I don’t know what you’re talking about….
55- what?? that’s so freaking wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!! that would kill my self esteem. I’m from the frozen north where we ride polar bears to work, drink maple syrup like it’s water and play hockey 24/7. I’m joking. I dislike maple syrup and I deffinitely don’t play hockey. I live in Canada.
0
0
-
71
The Man For Aeiou
in August 29th, 2008 @ 17:1270- But you ride a polar bear?
0
0
-
72
Dodecahedron
in August 29th, 2008 @ 17:2660- thank you summer reading was a book singing the praises of the European Union and it’s nice to see alternate opinions
Poor nations aren’t let in because it would weaken the euro– supposedly, the EU is working with nations which don’t currently meet the standard to set a timeline to improve things.
I don’t know the details of Turkey/EU interaction well enough, but the Turkish government has been pretty strongly secularist (things like lifting the headscarf ban don’t really force Muslim ways upon the masses, they make the option available, and everyone loves Ataturk) so either the EU is particularly nonsensical or you’re wrong. I am not trying to accuse you by saying that, governments are usually nonsensical, but I don’t know and you’re biased differently, not unbiased.
The European Union doesn’t really care about the other countries or see why it should add them- as far as popular opinion’s concerned, Turkey’s in Asia. It’s work accepting nations, your comparison with California isn’t really accurate. What if Quebec asked to join the United States, but adding it required that the US make French an official language, make sure that all their Canadian dollars and systems using them were exchanged for American dollars, add them to lots of governmental paperwork, improve their infrastructure and connect it to the surrounding states while guarding the borders of them/Canada, etc. All when the American public thinks Quebec is part of Canada and they don’t really belong in the US.
But what countries the EU takes in is beside my original point, if you live in a nation which is already a member it’s pretty cool.
0
0
-
73
Shadowkat
in August 29th, 2008 @ 17:4762-The NAU is a plan trying to be worked out to create a North American Union. So, Canada, the USA, and Mexico would all be joined together. I don’t like that. Both Canada and Mexico are pretty much socialist countries, if I’m correct.
0
0
-
74
bubbles
in August 29th, 2008 @ 18:05Gaaah! I know nothing of politics! I was going to use being a mere 10 years old as an excuse, but that doesn’t really work, because my friend is 10 and if she could vote, I cannot deny her vote would be and educated one. (Sorry for being so poetic, I just felt like it) I am going to visit a thread other than this one. Good bye!
0
0
-
75
Ê‘yviva
in August 29th, 2008 @ 18:1573- As far as I know, they’re not socialist– but it all depends on how you define your terms. I’m not as knowledgable as I should be about those countries, though. And there are countries in North America other than those three.
I wonder what Chileans have to say about that idea… they don’t recognize North and South America as differet continents.
0
0
-
76
☮iŹ√Ҳ!☮ (400 piepoints 40 brain points, 7 BP in reserve)☮
in August 29th, 2008 @ 18:2574- you might consider checking ’em out. Being 10 doesn’t impair your views of the world.
Barack Obama made his acceptance of the presidential nomination speech last night in Denver. I watched it on my computer…he was awesome. and he kicked McCain so hard with his speech it’s not even funny.
“90 percent of the time, John McCain has voted alongside George W. Bush.
I don’t know about you, but I’m not ready to take a 10 percent chance on change.”
~Barack Obama, August 28th, ’08.
0
0
-
77
Luna the Lovely
in August 29th, 2008 @ 23:10‘k–doing a small bit of research (admittedly not much), I’m not sure I’m really all that enthused about palin.
For starters, she seems to be extremely anti-gay. I, personally, am for gay rights. Gays, lesbians, etc. are, in my opinion, equal to heterosexuals, and they should be given equal rights (such as gay marriage, for instance). To me, discriminating against gays is not different than discriminating based upon race or religion.
Additionally, she appears to be very pro-life. Now, before I potentially get flamed, I am not entirely saying that being anti-abortion is a bad thing. However, I do think there is a grey area, and that palin seems to be completely never allow abortions, no matter what. Although, in general, I am not ocmpletely decided ont eh issue, there are a couple of instances where I think it would be incredibly cruel not to allow a woman to get an abortion. For instance, what if she were raped? How, exactly, is it fair to force her to go through 9 months, where she is constantly reminded of that horrible event in her life? Yes, she can give the child up for adoption, but 9 months, where, no matter what, there is no escaping the reminder of such a traumatic event? Additionally, what if after a woman has become pregnant, it transpires that carrying the baby to term could be potentially fatal for the mother? I don’t honestly think you can say that the child’s life is more important than the mother’s–chances are both would die without an abortion, instead of just hte one.
Additionally, I think I kind of have to agree with my dad, that she is rather inexperienced–she was the mayor of a small town in alaska, and then became governer in 2006–which is not a very long time–and governor is the most in depth political job she has had.
Anyways.
So GAPAs, why is it that you haven’t moderated anything for, like, the last hour? It’s only 11–that’s really not that late. Jeez.
0
0
-
78
Rosanne Spector (Administrator)
in August 29th, 2008 @ 23:18Hi, Luna,
A big plate of steamed cauliflower with melted cheese and conversation was keeping me from my GAPAing duties. Rebecca, Robert and Paul are probably all in dreamland. Though Paul might be getting up soon — it’s about 5:15 a.m. in England.(Conversation was with my husband, not the cauliflower :))
0
0
-
79
Luna the Lovely
in August 29th, 2008 @ 23:3178: *shudder* cauliflower? how can you eat cauliflower–it ranks right up there with broccoli on the nasty chart…..
What!?!? You mean, you don’t talk to your cauliflower? And here I was thinking that was all it was good for…..That, and perhaps making miniature forests….
“Rebecca, Robert and Paul”–gah, it drives me crazy when people do not use commas before and/or in lists! Bad, GAPA, bad!!!!
ok, I should probably consider going to bed myself–5:15, huh? *thinks* I guess it would be, since the UK is 9 hrs later than AK time–and he’s going to get up soon? But that’s still the middle of the night! Why get up before 11 (at the earliest) if you don’t have to?
0
0
-
80
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 30th, 2008 @ 00:0377- I would love to flame right now, but intead, I’m going to discuss my opinions in a calm and organized manner. *pies herself*
The topic of abortion is something that I feel very strongly about. I do agree that rape is a very terrible and traumatizing thing to have to go through for anyone, young or old, male or female. The instance of a teenage mother is very sad. But in some instances, if abortion was allowed, there would be cruelty put in place of the remorse. What if a twenty-four year old woman, who has means to and can support herself, chose to abort a child simply because she did not want to have to deal with what was her responsibility in the first place? What if a teenage girl who decided to ‘go all the way’ with someone decided that she didn’t need the burden that was hers to carry from the moment she agreed? Sure, it would be pretty bad to have your life thrown away for something as delicate as preganancy. But it would be your responsibility, your duty, to see the life of your own child to the hospital bed. A life is a life. No matter what cards you lay on the table, no matter what arguments are made, no matter how many tears are shed, a life is still going to be a life when it comes down to it. And killing a fetus is murder, shedding away an innocent child that is only viewed as a burden when this child could very well change the world someday. Have you ever seen a picture of an aborted child? I have. It’s just terrible, so heart wrenching and sick that I had to stop looking right away. Who would want that? I’m almost positive that any child would choose to live over that, if it had the choice. To take it away from any chance it might have at a happy life, a better life, a life that could involve support from family, blood relatives, or foster parents. It would be a hard road to follow, but would certainly result in a happier state of mind.
0
0
-
81
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 30th, 2008 @ 00:05Sorry. Was that too flamey? I didn’t mean it to be flamey. DARN me and my opinionation! *pies self to oblivion*
0
0
-
82
The Man For Aeiou
in August 30th, 2008 @ 08:1979- cauliflower is broccoli.
0
0
-
83
Luna the Lovely
in August 30th, 2008 @ 11:1580: I understand where you/’re coming from. In most circumstances, I would tend to agree with you. If a teenager is irresponsible enough to have unprotected sex and gets pregnant, yes, she should carry the baby to term (and then, if she so desires, she can give him/her up for adoption). The same goes for an adult who, through some careless behavior ends up pregnant with an unwanted child.
But, like I said, I can see two occasions where it seems inhumane to force a women to carry a child to term. For one thing, as you say, a life is a life–but, what if, as I said, a woman gets pregnant (perhaps because she wants the baby), and it transpires that carrying the baby full term would be (potentially) fatal to the mother, who are we to say that the baby’s life is more important?–as you said, a life is a life.
Additionally, imagine for a moment, that you were raped, and unfortunate enough to become pregnant from that single, unasked for encounter. It would, I think, be the most traumatic event in your life. And if you were to not terminate the pregnancy, you would spend nine months, with a constant, inescapable reminder of when some monster violated you. You wouldn’t be able to escape the memories, even for a second–because the life growing inside of you would always be there. I’ve got to believe that would drivemany women, who might otherwise have been able to get over the rape, to suicide, because in those days and months following the rape, there would be NO escape from the memories. Personally, I think forcing a woman to carry a rapist’s child against her will is one of the most cruel things you could do.
And, just for the record, aggie, I respect your opinion, even if I do not completely agree with it–I am not trying to be flamey or antagonistic, just trying to explain where I’m coming from, and why I think there are exceptions where abortion ought to be allowed, even if, in all other instances it is not.
And, TMFA, I hate to break it to you, but cauliflower is not broccoli. Cauliflower is a white treeish veggie that grows in a clump, whereas broccoli is green–similar, yes, but not the same. Here is what the lovely dictionary on my laptop has to say:
Woah, creepy–somebody created broccoflower–a cross between cauliflower and broccoli–that’s just wrong….
broccoli: a cabbage of a variety similar to the cauliflower, bearing heads of green or purplish flower buds. It is widely cultivated as a vegetable. • There are several kinds of broccoli, in particular those in the “Italica†group.
• the flower stalk and head eaten as a vegetable.cauliflower: a cabbage of a variety that bears a large immature flowerhead of small creamy-white flower buds.
• the flowerhead of this plant eaten as a vegetable.So, they are related, but not actually the same…..
0
0
-
84
Dodecahedron
in August 30th, 2008 @ 17:2380- Killing a fetus is murder, in your opinion. An embryo? A zygote? Is preventing a zygote from forming murder? A life may be a life, but what do you define as life?
What if you can’t support yourself?
And you never said it outright, is abortion acceptable in cases of rape?
Sure, the child could change the world. That isn’t necessarily a good thing. Lots of things change the world, and not always for the better. Appeals to emotion will get you nowhere with me.
Also, if you ban abortion, people will only resort to illegal and harmful ways of getting it. coathangers?
I believe that abortions should be fully legal and that it is a woman’s choice whether or not she carries a fetus to term. You may think it’s a child from conception, but you aren’t the one who’s pregnant. You aren’t supporting the baby, so you don’t matter.
Personally. I think that first-trimester abortions are perfectly ok, second-trimester less so but still allowable, and after that abortions should be used only if there’s danger to the mother in the pregnancy. Birth control should be widespread enough that abortions don’t need to happen from carelessness, but it’s not a problem with me if they happen anyway.
(apologies for any flaming that may have inadvertently occurred)
0
0
-
85
The Man For Aeiou
in August 30th, 2008 @ 17:2983- O.k., but there the same type of plant. genus, I bet, is the same.
0
0
-
86
Cat's Meow
in August 30th, 2008 @ 17:3854 – Oh, I do like that quote.
58 – I didn’t see any of the big DNC speeches except Obama’s, but from the bits I saw on the news later it seemed like she did a good job.
65 – Yup, that’s my guess. She doesn’t even have much experience.
77 – I think I agree with you. It will be hard for McCain to press the inexperience issue against Obama if he has such an inexperienced VP. His VP pick is especially important because, well, he’s 72. If he were to die during office I don’t think I would want Palin to be preseident.
My views on abortion: I’ve generally thought of myself as pro-choice, but my views have kind of been changing to something like what Luna has been saying, where abortion is only allowed in life threatening situations for the mother or when the mother was raped. Otherwise, the parents made a choice and it shouldn’t be the baby that suffers the consequence.
0
0
-
87
Cliff Eagle
in August 30th, 2008 @ 17:57I used to really care about abortion. I was pro-life. I was like, “Well, its like killing babies”. Now, I really don’t care. Some of these mothers who get raped or whatever end up throwing their babies in a trash can or something, and that’s a way worse death than getting killed before you can feel anything.
Palin is a great VP pick for McCain- she’s like a swiss army knife. She is more Republican than McCain and can sway otherwise Clinton voters towards “the dark side”. She also has five children. Good lord. One of them has down syndrome also. She is not your typical republican and before people make assumptions that she’s like Ann Coulter, learn a bit about the candidates.
0
0
-
88
Kokonilly
in August 30th, 2008 @ 18:0587 – Did you hear about the Ohio mom who microwaved her baby? *shudder* *shudder* *shudder*
0
0
-
89
♫ Agrrrfishi (Aggie),of 40 brain points and 14 spdzk points and 14 piepoints♫
in August 30th, 2008 @ 18:11Possible Flame Warning.
84- My opinion matters just as much as yours, Dodecahedron. And, just so you know, you aren’t the one carrying a baby either, so it’s not your place to put me in mine.
In cases of rape that are not resulting from the mother or any action she has taken, sometimes abortion might be a POSSIBILITY. But, if this child results from a chain of actions that started with the mother herself, then it would be her responsibility to see the child through. For example, what if a girl who disobeyed her parents by sneaking out of the house, went to a party, got drugged up and loopy and then was raped because she didn’t have enoguh energy left from all of her boozing to know what was even going on, then it would consequently be her fault. It’s not downplaying the situation by saying that things like this can happen, because rape is a terrible thing to go through (I know, I’m very close friends with people who have gone through it).I’m only pointing out that this rape and this child would be a result of something that the mother inflicted upon herself, and therefiore it would be cruel not to continue with the process that brought a human child into the picture, even if the child is undesired.Also, when a child is born, single mothers get money from the government to help raise their children if they choose to do so. If they don’t orphanages and child homes take care of the children until they are adopted or can support themselves. It’s not as though you absolutely have to raise that child yourself.
” If you ban abortion, people will only resort to illegal and harmful ways of getting it”. How do you know? How can you possibly prove that anyone would go through something potentially more painful than pregnancy to kill a kid? Nine months vs. a more lengthy pain and the guilt of murder? I’ll take nine months in a second.
A child is not something like an old shoe that you can get rid of when you don’t want it anymore. It’s much more than that. Every day, ask yourself: how would I feel if I had been aborted as a child? Wouldn’t you want to live instead of die?
0
0
-
90
Taiwan Hippo Fan
in August 30th, 2008 @ 18:23I am totally and completely pro-choice. It is obviously wrong to force a woman who was raped to birth and care for a child, and it is even more horrible to force her to have this child and then leave her no choice but to throw the poor baby in a dumpster. I think that if a woman gets pregnant for any reason, and decides that she doesn’t want to/can’t/isn’t (somehow) allowed to/can’t afford to have the child, she shouldn’t have to – and, that child might not even be well cared for, whether she keeps him/her or if she has him/her adopted. I totally understand where pro-life people are coming from, but I believe that if the child isn’t going to be well-cared for, and the mother knows it, there’s no reason why she shouldn’t get an abortion before the kid even has his/her own separate life.
Someone microwaved their baby??!?!! Ughhhhh. I’m physically shivering right now. They put a human child through microwaves. That’s impossibly… creepy.
I think McCain’s VP choice is quite interesting. I think it’s funny that she applied for the job and then later said she didn’t know what the Vice President did. (google “Gov. Sarah Palin on the Wooten scandal and VP” for a video)
0
0
-
91
Cliff Eagle
in August 30th, 2008 @ 18:2589- How do you know how much pregnancy hurts and how much an abortion hurts? Also, if you were 17, and you found out you were pregnant, would you know exactly what to do? No! You’d be confused as hell. They might not know what to do once the baby is born, and especially because they are already an outcast- rejected by everyone for being knocked up, it would be very hard to make a decision involving the life of a child. The most painless thing would probably be to abort the child. When I say painless- I mean taking off the mental and economic pressure of raising a child- which is a responsibility that many people aren’t ready for. It’s not that I support abortion, I don’t care either way, but it is circumstancial- depends on the circumstance. And if absolutely necessary, abortion may be the best option.
0
0
-
92
☮iŹ√Ҳ!☮ (400 piepoints 40 brain points, 7 BP in reserve)☮
in August 30th, 2008 @ 18:30If any teenager is downright idiotic enough to have sex without anything to stop pregnancy, then you can’t justify aborting an innocent child. I’m with Agrrrfishi on this one–if we ban abortion, we can’t be sure we’ll create an issue.
I never thought I would say this, but a lifetime imprisonment should go to ANYONE who harms a child. A child, particularly babies, have no chance to defend themselves. No chance to live the potential they could have had. Everyone deserves a chance, even an unwanted child born by a teenager.
Consider this: if we banned abortion, then we could create one of two things:
a drive for teenagers with unwanted pregnancies to kill a child
a complete realization of what it is to kill.I’d prefer the latter.
0
0
-
93
Luna the Lovely
in August 30th, 2008 @ 18:5789: Rape is never the fault of the person raped. Even if a girl went out to a party and got drugged/drunk, it is not her fault that she is raped. And don’t you think at that point she has enough to deal with, without forcing her to carry the child to term? For one thing, I’ve got to imagine that she would probably take matters ito her own hands, either during the pregnancy, or by killing the child once it is born–much worse than a legal, humane abortion.
90: Yeah, I saw the video….that was a really stupid comment to make “What exactly is it that the VP does everyday?”
I notice though, Aggie, that you never actually commented on the other occasion where abortion might be acceptable–when carrying the child full term is potentially fatal to the mother.
0
0
-
94
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 30th, 2008 @ 19:3893- Abortion is never humane. It is not human to murder, especially a child that can’t speak for itself.
As for the mother having a potential fatality, if I were a mother (and I hope to be one someday), I would love my child enough to give anything for it. It is not normal for a mother to be aware that she might die in childbirth, and even so, if this teenager or adult was follish enogh to have unprotected sex or wanted to have a child through said affair, then they should understand that killing something alive to save themselves is, to say the least, not a prudent option.
Long story short, it’s not right to bring something into existance and then snuff out its life without giving it a fair chance.
0
0
-
95
Dodecahedron
in August 30th, 2008 @ 19:47I am probably flaming right now. I’m very sorry, but this is important to me…
89- I don’t think that all abortions are wonderful things, but it isn’t your place, my place, or anyone’s to ban them, and I’m trying to explain my point of view.
>†If you ban abortion, people will only resort to illegal and harmful ways of getting itâ€. How do you know? How can you possibly prove that anyone would go through something potentially more painful than pregnancy to kill a kid?
I mentioned coathangers. Back before there were safe and legal ways for abortions to be performed, desperate women would stick coathangers inside themselves to try and remove the fetus. It could lead to serious injury. They thought it was the best option.>if this child results from a chain of actions that started with the mother herself, then it would be her responsibility to see the child through.
You example is, in my opinion, very wrong. Here’s my counter:
A girl is in college, goes to a party one night, gets separated from her friends. She’s drinking, and someone slips her a date rape drug and later rapes her. The only difference between your scenario and mine is that she didn’t disobey her parents. Still her fault?>A child is not something like an old shoe that you can get rid of when you don’t want it anymore.
Exactly. You are suggesting that people get rid of their children via adoption once they are born. I think this should be stopped by aborting before the embryo/fetus is what I consider to be a child.92- Define child. see the beginning of my post 84.
>If any teenager is downright idiotic enough to have sex without anything to stop pregnancy, then you can’t justify aborting an innocent child.
If someone is forced to have sex against their will, they won’t be able to get the rapist to put on a condom. Are you suggesting all females old enough to menstruate should take birth control pills to avoid the possibility that they’re raped?>Consider this: if we banned abortion, then we could create one of two things:
>a drive for teenagers with unwanted pregnancies to kill a child
>a complete realization of what it is to kill.
I don’t see how the second happens. Explain please? The only option I see is the first.
0
0
-
96
Dodecahedron
in August 30th, 2008 @ 19:5794- In our enlightened age, doctors can tell if a woman will be harmed by an out-of-the-ordinary childbirth. Especially if she is married and going to a doctor like pregnant women should for their safety. If she wants children, and her options are to a. die, become infertile, and/or be seriously injured by childbirth, or b. abort this fetus, and try to have one or more children safely, why should she die?
0
0
-
97
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 30th, 2008 @ 20:1995- I don’t blame you. It is equally as important to me, and I respect that you are trying to state your opinions calmly and nicely.
‘A girl is in college, goes to a party one night, gets separated from her friends. She’s drinking, and someone slips her a date rape drug and later rapes her. The only difference between your scenario and mine is that she didn’t disobey her parents. Still her fault?’
Yes, because she was drinking (another thing that peeves me). Even though it is legal for her to drink, the influence of alcohol can cause problems with the brain and the mind, imapairing decisions. If she had not felt the need to drink like a good person ought to, then she would not have had the date rape drugs and she would not be pregnant.[Paragraph snipped at Agrrrfishi’s request. –Admin.]
‘ Back before there were safe and legal ways for abortions to be performed, desperate women would stick coathangers inside themselves to try and remove the fetus. It could lead to serious injury. They thought it was the best option.’
Then these women are obviously irresponsible and their judgement is clouded over even more than I would have thought. How many times do I have to say it? Murder is never the best option, nor is pain and human suffering. Especially that of a child.
0
0
-
98
Cliff Eagle
in August 30th, 2008 @ 20:26Is a bunch of cells considered a child? With the technology we have today, we can make life out of a bunch of dead skin cells, which wash off every time you take a shower. So can you get life imprisonement from taking a shower? Sounds a tiny bit extreme. Keep the death penalty to people who harm living people- murderers and child molesters.
0
0
-
99
Dodecahedron
in August 30th, 2008 @ 20:37She’s drinking fruit juice. The alcoholic content of the beverage isn’t a prerequisite to getting a drug slipped in it.
Why is drinking something “good people” don’t do? Why is it so evil it deserves nine months of punishment?If they’re irresponsible, do you really want to give these women the responsibility of a child? No matter whether they’re wrong or right, abortions are going to happen. You prefer the death of the woman and her fetus in an unsafe environment to just that of the fetus?
What are you going to do to stop them?Also, I object to your terminology. Using words like “murder” and “child” cloud your arguments with emotion. If they’re good arguments you shouldn’t need them.
0
0
-
100
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 30th, 2008 @ 20:3898- You are a bunch of cells, and you were a bunch of cells when you were a child. So there.
And yes, I do think that a bunch of cells that can become a living, breathing, laughing, talking, walking child is just that-a child. An innocent life, a smiling face, a spark of joy in someone’s heart. That is a child. And that child trusts its mother to bring it safely into the world.
0
0
-
101
Dodecahedron
in August 30th, 2008 @ 20:48100- So, in your opinion, life starts at conception. What’s your opinion on birth control (which keeps the sperm and egg from fusing)? The morning-after pill (which keeps the zygote from implanting in the uterus wall)?
0
0
-
102
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 30th, 2008 @ 20:5690- But, see, they don’t have to throw the baby away! You wouldn’t believe how many families and couples and people there are in the world who would love to adopt that child and raise it to be th best it can be. There are other,more humane choices.
99- Drinking IS bad, though! Drinking is evil and can cause problems and death and accidents, and sometimes that accident can be pregnancy! I guess if they really wanted to, the good can drink, but it’s not smart. And childbirth is not punishment to the people who care for the life of that fetus or embryo or zygote or whatever you want to call it to make it less important in your mind. Yes, no matter what is said against it, it is a child, no matter what stage of life it is in it is still a life. And taking away the life of a human being is murder, so I’m not going to say that it isn’t.
*douses self out with the fire extinguisher*
0
0
-
103
Dodecahedron
in August 30th, 2008 @ 21:07102- re:90- But these alternatives aren’t exactly well-known.
re:99- >Yes, no matter what is said against it, it is a child, no matter what stage of life it is in it is still a life.
you still haven’t explicitly defined what a life is. (see my comment 101)Ignoring what you’ve said about drinking being bad (maybe in excess, but it doesn’t do anything bad in moderation), what if the girl was drinking something nonalcoholic in my scenario? Is it still her fault?
And you still haven’t replied to “No matter whether they’re wrong or right, abortions are going to happen. You prefer the death of the woman and her fetus in an unsafe environment to just that of the fetus?
What are you going to do to stop them? ” in 99.
0
0
-
104
Cliff Eagle
in August 30th, 2008 @ 21:08102- Yeah, i treat my dead cells like children too. Were all a happy family. You know what? All those dead cells, which people have basically no use for, could be life? But I chose to take showers, which killed them all. They could have been my first born sun or daughter? Did you take a shower once in your life? Yeah. You practically just had an abortion. So, we need to change the topic from abortion, because this argument is going nowhere. We keep trying to explain to you that a bunch of cells is not considered a breathing baby yet, so killing cells is the same as taking a shower. New topic: Russian invasion of Abkhazia/ South Ossetia
0
0
-
105
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 30th, 2008 @ 21:30103- The alternative of an adoption center is the most obvious alternative there is! If the teenager in question was to go to her doctor or talk to her parents, they would discuss options for the child, and an adoption center would certainly be at the top of the list. Heck, I knew about adoption centers when I was five! If these women don’t know what options they hold in store for their child, then by golly, we should tell them.
If the girl in your scenario wasn’t drinking anything alcohlic or doing anything to imapir her judgement, then how would she get separated from her friends? I know if I was her, and I knew that there were creeps around in bars like the rest of us do, then I would make sure I didn’t lose my friends in the crowd.
I believe that a life is what happens when egg and sperm unite from sexual activity to create the basis of a zygote and an embryo and a fetus and a child all in themselves. That is a life in my book. If you stop the sperm and egg before they fuse, then you’re all good. Anything after that and it’s no fair.
What am I going to do to stop abortion? Are you kidding me? I’m only one girl, one person, I can’t stop abortions all on my own. But I can tell you that abortion is wrong, and that if I could stop it all on my own, then I would. It’s the right thing to do, no matter what cards are played, be it rape or death. Abortion is wrong, and it will always be wrong no matter what is said to raise it up.
How is the Russian invasion of Abkhazia/ South Ossetia a hot topic, exactly?
0
0
-
106
Luna the Lovely
in August 30th, 2008 @ 21:4297: A person doesn’t have to be drinking alcohol to be slipped a date rape drug. They could be at a party–with not alcohol–and someone could slip the drug into there soda. So, are you telling me that is still due to bad decisions on the girls part? How could she foresee that going to a party without alcohol would result in some ***** slipping her a date rape drug and then raping her?
98: Add rapist to your list–teh death penalty should be for murders, child molesters, and rapists
102: What about all the horror stories about kids who end up in foster care–because they had an irresponsible mother, who chose to give birth to them, but being a druggie or some such thing does not care for them? From all I’ve seen, that’s not really all that great of a life
Additonally, Aggie, there is nothing wrong with drinking in moderation. I’m not saying go out and drink loads of alcohol all the time, but having an occasional alcoholic drink is not “evil”. If it were so evil, would they have wine in church, and have all the little church goers drink a little thingy of wine in communion? Actually, come to think of it, you could make an argument that the church is engaging in illegal activities of supplying alcoholic drinks to underage people–I know for a fact (my sister goes to church) that they give it to underage people.
0
0
-
107
Glasseh
in August 30th, 2008 @ 21:53Just popping by to drop in a link, if the GAPAs will let it past…If they won’t, I’d prefer to have the post zapped. I am not by any means coming back with this post.
http :// www . tampabay. com/ specials/2008/reports/danielle/
This is in support of Luna’s response to 102.
0
0
-
108
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 30th, 2008 @ 22:06106-In church (which I attend every Sunday, thank you) they do not hand out any wine. You get one sip and that’s it. I guess a beer or two a month is all right, maybe a drink on a date or something when you’re actually old enough to drink. But in excess alcohol can cause very serious problems and accidents.
I have four adopted cousins who live with my aunt and uncle, and they live a fine life. Not every adoption is perfect, but they aren’t all like the horror stories you see on television and in the news. Don’t judge a book by its cover, because the news blows things out of proportion. Adoption is not a bad thing, it does not all the time involve creeps who abuse these children. And now, orpanages and foster homes do more careful background checks on the people that they allow to take in the children, so there is less and less abuse.
0
0
-
109
Ê‘yviva
in August 30th, 2008 @ 23:10My aunt is a social worker. when she saw the movie Juno she was outraged by the hollywood gloss they put over it. It is not that easy to find loving, responsible, parents so quickly.
I support adoption. However, there are actual, living, breathing, children out there. Some of them come from mother’s too poor to have an abortion. Some of them had parents who died. why hurt these children’s chances by ringing another unwanted baby into the world?
If a woman feels it is morally wrong to abort she should not be forced to. But the option should not be taken away from those who do not consider a ball of cells incapable of independant living (even with artificial aid) to be alive.
I support giving women the right to choose when the fetus is still a bunch of cells and unable to survive outside the womb.
0
0
-
110
Luna the Lovely
in August 30th, 2008 @ 23:12108: I was not intending to imply that they handed out bottles of wine to minors–but they do supply wine–even if it’s just the thimble sized amount in those little sippy things (or a sip from a communal goblet, depending on the church *shuddergermsnastygermsshudder*).
I was merely pointing out what seemed to be a double standard–as confirmed in your post when you said you attend church every sunday(not that I’m dissing church–I have nothing against you goign to church). It’s “evil” to drink, but oh, it’s ok to consume alcohol (admittedly, a tiny amount) when it’s symbolic of jesus’s blood and it’s ina religious setting (speaking of which, can you say cannibalism? that always creeped me out…..)
0
0
-
111
Luna the Lovely
in August 30th, 2008 @ 23:15ok, apologies if that was too offensive. I am not trying to say that there is anything wrong with beign religious. I, personally, am not religious, and dont’ want to get into a religious debate, for I would say a great many things I would regret.
as far as the cannibalism thing goes, again, I’m sorry, but drinking wine that is supposed to symbolize Jesus’s blood, and eating bread that is supposed to symbolize his flesh–what am I supposed to come away with, except a disturbing sense of cannibalism?
0
0
-
112
Luna the Lovely
in August 30th, 2008 @ 23:17zyviva makes a good point–is a life really a life if it cannot survive on it’s own? i would tend to say not
0
0
-
113
Luna the Lovely
in August 30th, 2008 @ 23:42107: (Glasseh) oh god, that made me cry. I had these shivers gong down my spine, and all I could think was how could anyone do that to there own child? That’s wrong, just wrong.
0
0
-
114
Canon in D
in August 31st, 2008 @ 00:47106.>What about all the horror stories about kids who end up in foster care?
Well, there are horror stories about people abusing their own children- not adopted children- too.
Would you rather die by being burned and cut into little pieces or live and risk the chance of being put into a terrible foster home? Adopted children aren’t generally put into foster homes anyway, they are welcomed into families that they stay in and are raised by.109: By the time a woman even realizes that she’s pregnant, the baby’s heart has already started to beat. By the end of the 10th week of pregnancy, the average age of an aborted baby, his or her facial features will have started to develop and the baby’s vital organs will not only have developed, they will have already started to work. I think at that point, it can no longer be considered a “clump of cells.” The baby is responsive to stimuli. It can feel.
I think it’s important to point out that these cases of rape pregnancies and pregnancies that may prove fatal to the mother are very, very uncommon. I don’t think that one should base their entire opinion of the matter on a few incredibly few instances.
Also, when a girl experiences something as horrific as rape, would it be right to force her to murder someone as well? It’s just doing something terrible to try to cover up something else that’s terrible. The awful tendency that people have– of staying out too late and then adding to the bad decision by lying about it– taken to the horrible extreme of involving the lives of a helpless girl and a helpless child.
0
0
-
115
Canon in D
in August 31st, 2008 @ 00:49Oh shoot. Could one of the administrators confine the italics to simply “the baby’s heart has already started to beat”? That would be awesome!
0
0
-
116
Rosanne Spector (Administrator)
in August 31st, 2008 @ 00:57Italics confined, per your request, Canon in D.
0
0
-
117
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 31st, 2008 @ 07:29110- It is NOT canniballistic to drink wine respresenting Jesus’ blood, or bread his flesh. In scripture it states that at the last supper he broke the bread and wine, saying, “This is my body and blood, that which I have given for you. This do in remembrance o me.” The bread and wine are then broken and given to the churchgoers in small amounts. This is our belief, and it is not canniballistic or germy or nasty. It is very offensive that you think so, but to each is own.
When I said that drinking is bad, I meant that it’s bad in larger amounts. A sip of wine at church is not going to kill a bunch of people in a drunk driving accident.
And yes, a life is a life if it cannot survive on its’ own, because it is still here. If you couldn’t survive on your own, I think you would still consider yourself a part of this earth, wouldn’t you?
0
0
-
118
 ¡Red-tailed HAWK!  [6,000 piepoints ©, 16 spdzk points and 22 KAG points] �|�
in August 31st, 2008 @ 09:56*Takes deep breath* *Pulls post from heart*
I’d like to say something here. And I don’t want to be flamed because of it.
To me, these threads are bad news. Hot Topics, Global Warming, Evolution, Religions… They do nothing useful and only serve to anger people and pull us apart.
Maybe we aren’t mature enough to have these types of discussions. Maybe we don’t know enough, and if we do, we don’t know how to express it properly. From all I’ve seen on these types of threads, that is what I feel is true.
What seems to happen is, a person takes a “Hot Topicâ€. They look at the issue, and they conclude something. This is where something goes wrong: opinions begin to leak in. Once the opinions take hold, there’s no stopping them. Once somebody feels attached to an opinion, they aren’t going to let go of it. They get defensive when somebody suggests it may be wrong. Then an argument ensues. Two people or groups of people unite and a battle starts.
It turns into a competition to see who can disprove the other person, who can win somebody over to their side, who can make the other person feel dumb or wrong.
This itself seems wrong to me. What are we exactly proving? We have the same little arguments over and over again, with the same ending again and again. We eventually get tired of the useless and rather pointless discussion, and we abandon it. We apologize for any flaming that occurred, and we move on. Nobody changed any opinions. Nobody achieved anything but separating musers and hurting feelings, and I can’t see how that should be viewed as an achievement by any of us.
I don’t pretend to be beyond it, it’s happened to me! I’ve gotten into what seemed like mostly harmless discussions that ended up being quite violent. I thought I could have a harmless discussion, but once those opinions get mixed in there, oh boy, there’s no stopping it from getting out of hand real fast. It’s addicting. Once you start trying to prove your opinion is right, it’s really hard to stop, even a close friend could turn into an enemy if they happened to hold a different opinion. It’s very tempting to think that your opinion is right, and we want to believe it. We want to believe we’re right, so we’ll do anything to prove it.
Honestly, we’re not going to change any minds here. We’re all just as convinced we’re right as everybody else is convinced they’re right. We’re not going to change any minds, and if we can’t have a discussion without attempting to disprove the other person, we just shouldn’t have a discussion.
It unnecessarily divides musers. It breaks us up when we’re supposed to be coming together on this blog.
I think the best thing we can do is abandon these threads. I cannot see where these threads are going to get any better any time soon. I think we should value our friendship more than our egos and our opinions. Let’s leave it all behind and not worry about what somebody else thinks, okay? It’s not hurting anyone for them to believe anything. I really think we should try our best to put friends before opinions, try our best to put our differences behind and value instead our similarities.
Can’t we just chill?
Sincerely,
Red-tailed HAWK
0
0
-
119
Ê‘yviva
in August 31st, 2008 @ 09:58117- When I said alone, I counted artifical help as “alone”. (as do many others who support abortion) Under that definition, if I couldn’t survive “alone” than I would be dead.
Let’s not debate about communion. Luna was expressing a personal opinion (in a non-tactful manner) about the concept. No one thinks communion is in anyway actually equivilent to real cannibalism.
114- Scientific studies have shown that it is unlikely a fetus feels pain before the third trimester. I did not look at all of them, but the one I did look at, based its conclusion on the fact that the fetus does not develop the ogans (specifically Thalamocortical fibers) necessary to feel pain until somewhere between 23 and 30 weeks. According to the CDC, only 1.4% of abortions occur after 21 weeks. Perhaps those should be banned, but the pain argument does not hold for earlier pregnancies.
Yes, rape pregancies are (thankfully), not a frequent occurence. But they are still horrific and they still occur. Why should those women be forced to suffer? And no one is forcing anyone to abort.. Unlike the pregancy, abortions are optional.
0
0
-
120
Luna the Lovely
in August 31st, 2008 @ 10:40117: My apologies–I was not trying to be offensive. And I know the idea of communion is not cannibalism, but the idea of eating/drinking something that is supposed to symbolize flesh/blood has always weirded me out. Additionally, my “nasty” and “germy” I did not mean communion in general–I merely meant the group sharing of a goblet of wine–I would find sharing anything I was eating/drinking with even one other person “nasty” and “germy”, much less something shared with the majority of the people at church. That was all I meant there.
114: I think zyviva’s post sums it up nicely.
0
0
-
121
Luna the Lovely
in August 31st, 2008 @ 10:49Also, I want to second Cliff Eagle~we need a new topic, as this one is getting out of hand, and all that is happening is we are unintentionally hurting each other.
And Aggie? I like you, truly, I do–and I’m sorry you found some of my posts offensive, as that was not the intent. Although, I do realize I could have phrased some of the things I said in a less antagonistic way–or even just left them unsaid.
0
0
-
122
Rebecca Lasley (Administrator)
in August 31st, 2008 @ 11:04(121) Seems to me this has actually been one of the most civil conversations about abortion I’ve seen among such divergent viewpoints. You’re trying not to be antagonistic and to address each other as persons rather than mere opponents, which is more than many people older than yourselves manage to do.
0
0
-
123
The Man For Aeiou
in August 31st, 2008 @ 13:01120- In my church we use grape juice, not wine.
0
0
-
124
Luna the Lovely
in August 31st, 2008 @ 13:28123: You’re right–some churches choose to use grape juice (or both grape juice and wine)
0
0
-
125
Canon in D
in August 31st, 2008 @ 14:28I think that we’re actually being pretty civil here. I don’t think anyone has been hurt in this discussion. Like Rebecca said, we aren’t personally attacking those who have different viewpoints, which is more than many people older than us can manage. And as long as it stays a discussion and not a flame war, I don’t see any harm in just talking about our different opinions. I don’t think it’s very healthy to pretend that we don’t disagree about things, and besides, I like to hear what other people think about things– even/especially if it is totally different than what I think.
0
0
-
126
Luna the Lovely
in August 31st, 2008 @ 14:43125: As you wish.
0
0
-
127
Dodecahedron
in August 31st, 2008 @ 15:10118- If we can’t express ourselves now, how will we learn to do so later? I consider this aspect of MuseBlog practice for debates. I try to keep an open mind and think about why I believe things (I hope others do) and I want to get everyone else to think, too. I want to see what differing opinions are and why. My posts don’t always convey that, though…
right now I have nothing to add besides echoing zyviva …I’m starting to not care about killing babies (I mean, post-natal ones), so I should probably leave the topic for a little.
0
0
-
128
Canon in D
in August 31st, 2008 @ 15:33119. Even if there is only a small chance that the fetus can feel pain, wouldn’t you say that it’s better to err on the side of caution? Or for that matter, even if there is only a small chance that the fetus is a human (regardless of whether or not it feels pain), isn’t it better to err on the side of supposing that it might be? For example, if someone is out hunting and they have any reason to believe that the rustling in the bushes is a person, they have an obligation to hold fire.
The “it’s better for them to die now than live and have an awful life” kind of reasoning doesn’t stand up when you really get down to it because that would ultimately mean that it’s okay for one person to decide whether or not another person’s life is worth living.
I guess it really comes down to whether or not the fetus is a human being or not. Because if it’s really a human, there is no justification for killing it. And if it isn’t then it’s just a clump of baby shaped cells, and it would be the same as cutting out an infected appendix. There might be no way to prove without a doubt that it’s definitely a human, but by the same token, you have no way of proving without a shadow of a doubt that it is definitely not a human. If you look at it this way, you can see that there is at least a chance of it being human, and no one should kill unless they are sure that the rustling in the bushes or the baby shaped clump of cells is not human.
0
0
-
129
 ¡Red-tailed HAWK!  [6,000 piepoints ©, 16 spdzk points and 22 KAG points] �|�
in August 31st, 2008 @ 15:37Look at it this way: MuseBlog is supposed to bring Muse readers, a unique group of people, together. Should we really spoil our friendships merely to get some practice debating an issue? Should we sharpen our teeth on good friends? Sorry, that’s what sticks and rocks are for.
Red-tailed HAWK
0
0
-
130
Brendan The Science Whiz/Fforde Ffan
in August 31st, 2008 @ 15:56118,129:
I agree, but also, one of the most sucussful ways of finding out info is by researching what proves your opponent wrong, and secondly for me, arguing is fun, and helps you learn.
0
0
-
131
Rebecca Lasley (Administrator)
in August 31st, 2008 @ 16:13(130) You can also learn a lot by studying the strongest evidence that supports your opponent’s position. Very few people are entirely wrong (or entirely correct).
Arguing, as opposed to discussing, tends to make each side cling more tightly to their own beliefs rather than open up to new possibilities. In the process, the most important points — and the best opportunities to learn — often get left out of the argument altogether.
0
0
-
132
Ã߀ƒ
in August 31st, 2008 @ 16:19129- Good friends? Heh, most of us have never even seen each other in person! I’d say that MB has optimal conditions for debates.
0
0
-
133
Canon in D
in August 31st, 2008 @ 16:24129: I don’t think any friendships are being spoiled, at least not at this point. There isn’t any flaming going on, just people discussing their different opinions. Even if we aren’t changing the opinions of other people, we’re learning about what other people believe and why, which can never be pointless. Although as soon as things turn into name-calling or angry, frustrated ramblings, I completely agree with you, that it isn’t getting anyone anywhere and is detrimental to the awesome MuseBlog atmosphere.
0
0
-
134
 ¡Red-tailed HAWK!  [6,000 piepoints ©, 16 spdzk points and 22 KAG points] �|�
in August 31st, 2008 @ 17:23130/131-I’d fully agree with you if I thought all “discussions” on the blog were mostly harmless. They most definitely are not all harmless. Many get out of hand. I won’t say if this one about abortion did or not, but I can tell you, I believe more than one blog discussion has turned into a flame war, and I am now tired of it and thus bringing it up.
If anyone has any ideas of how to keep every single discussion we ever have from turning into flaming, I’d be interested to hear it. I don’t think any of us are mature enough to say that there never has or never will be flaming.
133-Who do you think should decide when it’s gone too far?
Red-tailed HAWK
0
0
-
135
☮iŹ√Ҳ!☮ (400 piepoints 40 brain points, 7 BP in reserve)☮
in August 31st, 2008 @ 17:5795- At your request, Dodecahedron.
Define child: I define a human child as a fetus that has started to develop to the stage where it becomes able to feel touch, in short, not just a clump of cells. Aborting would be fine–if it happens when the baby hasn’t matured. Aborting a baby that can feel, however, is murdering an innocent child for the mother’s own convenience. period.
If the mother is raped, she shouldn’t be blamed. If someone is forced to have sex, then if she is willing to bear the baby, she should. If she is not, she should abort before the baby can develop.
A child should never be killed. No matter what, a child is a living thing that shouldn’t be just gotten rid of–“like an old shoe”.
We are HUMAN. Not killers with no thought for those that we feel no affection for.Does that answer some of your question? I would be happy to continue if you want.
0
0
-
136
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 31st, 2008 @ 19:06121- It’s all right. I know that you didn’t MEAN anything the way you said it about communion. But the communion ceremony is not only to represent the blood and flesh of Jesus Christ. hat communion symbolizes the acrifice on the cross that Jsus made for us. ‘Do this in my eternal remembrance’ means to remember how he died to save our souls someday. And there is nothing canniballistic about it.
Apology accepted,anyway. I respect your opinion and your right to say things in the way you want to. But, please, think before you act, because at the time I did take it to great offense. No hard feelings?132- I have a lot of good friends on the blog,and even though I sometimes disagree with some of them, I still don’t care what opinions they have, because I like to compare facts and information. I don’t really think it matters if we have ever seen one another or not (but personally, I would love to meet all of you in person!
).
0
0
-
137
Cat's Meow
in August 31st, 2008 @ 19:08128 – Yeah, I kind of have to agree with you there. As I said, I used to be very pro-choice, but now I’m more thinking that abortion should only be legal in extreme situations. What changed my mind was a discussion that my class had in Social Studies. Two of my friends and I got put in a group. We were supposed to debate an issue until we all agreed, and then share our result with the class. Our topic was abortion, and we quickly learned that we were all pro-choice.
We shared our “verdict” with the class, and our teacher asked us why we thought that. We said that we didn’t consider the fetus to be a baby yet, and that if the baby was born it might end up killed or put in foster care.
Then one of the other kids in our class spoke up. He pointed out that he’d been adopted at a very young age. It kind of all made us think: What if this kid in our class had been aborted before he was born? He’s one of the most amazing baseball players I know, he carries his glove everywhere, and I could seriously see him playing MLB when he grows up. But what if he hadn’t gotten the chance?
I dunno. That event sort of made me look at it differently. It’s different when the person in question is someone you actually know, instead of a hypothetical Jane Doe.
0
0
-
138
The Man For Aeiou
in August 31st, 2008 @ 19:12137- Jane Roe, you mean.
I’m a Nerd.
0
0
-
139
Cat's Meow
in August 31st, 2008 @ 19:25138 – Oh, haha, very funny.
0
0
-
140
Luna the Lovely
in August 31st, 2008 @ 19:28Aggie~no hard feelings on my part.
138: I don’t get it.
0
0
-
141
 ¡Red-tailed HAWK!  [6,000 piepoints ©, 16 spdzk points and 22 KAG points] �|�
in August 31st, 2008 @ 20:08I’m going to attempt to start the conversation from scratch. I think it got old and stale, and turned into an argument. How ironic, considering the discussion was about arguments!
All of my posts here and on the Welcome, Neophytes thread have attempted to express my concern about the blog regarding the “Hot Topics” thread and a few others that deal with hot topics.
In summary: I believe we need a blogger’s code of conduct thing with regard to these threads. I do not think we can avoid all future flaming with a NO FLAMING sticker put at the top of the thread. Although that helps, I think we need a short and sweet “guide” of sorts that would be put at the top of every future Hot Topic thread.
This guide would attempt to summarize a few key points about having a discussion. There are ways to discuss things that lead to a better understanding of each other, and don’t insult, upset, enrage, or talk down to the other person or party. I think we’d all do better to always use this method. Although we usually are fairly calm, we can do better (Yes we can!
) and we have not been as calm as we could be all of the time. There have been some very rough times in the history of these threads. I was the reason FS was banned; it was not something you could easily forget (and I haven’t.) We should do everything in our power to prevent future flaming. You may think I’m overreacting to this issue, but trust me, if you ever were flamed you would understand. And besides, if we’re going to have these discussions, we might as well get something out of them. All of them. And I hope this guide will help that happen.
To start, I’ll put forward a couple of ideas:
~Arguments tear people apart, while discussions bring them together.
~Staying calm and constantly supporting and listening to the opponent’s ideas is key; but, it’s easy to forget and hard to do sometimes.
~Seek the similarities; trying to prove one belief right and the other wrong doesn’t work and isn’t fair, and it won’t lead to a better understanding of the other person.
Let me know what you think!
Sincerely,
Red-tailed HAWK
0
0
-
142
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 31st, 2008 @ 20:10137- I know! That’s what I’ve been trying to say all along. My friend’s mom was adopted, and she gave birth to my best friend, a very gifted artist and a great person. I always wondered what would happen if Mrs. F had never been born. I would be so empty without my best friend. That’s another reason why I’m pro-life. You have to give them a chance to do whatever they can to survive. If they never get to try to live, then who’s to say we all shouldn’t?
0
0
-
143
Cat's Meow
in August 31st, 2008 @ 20:21138 – Jane Roe was the name of one of the people involved in Roe vs. Wade, the Supreme Court case involving abortions.
142 – I think that each person has a story to tell. It seems a little unfair to never let that story be heard…
0
0
-
144
 ¡Red-tailed HAWK!  [6,000 piepoints ©, 16 spdzk points and 22 KAG points] �|�
in August 31st, 2008 @ 20:44Regarding the current topic:
I would say I feel it’s nice to give babies a chance, but not if the mother’s life is in danger. Particularly if the baby wouldn’t survive either, at least save the mother.
If the baby wasn’t the mother’s idea, and she didn’t do anything to particularly be at risk of becoming pregnant (say she stays home and does homework instead of going to parties) but still something bad happens and she’s pregnant, then it’s kind of hard to say she deserves to have the shock and responsibility of having a child for the rest of her life. Particularly if she’s young and couldn’t very well defend herself. But it is true this would be rare.
I have a hard time honestly having sympathy for these girls who get into trouble who were just asking for it all along. It’s scary how some girls dress and act nowadays. And then they wonder why bad things happen.
Well, of course it’s still terrible and wrong for the person who did the bad thing, but honestly: It’s like leaving your door unlocked and hanging a big neon sign above it saying “robbers this way!” and wondering why something bad happens. It is clear you can do things to protect yourself in any situation against most harm, and to not protect yourself and wonder why a bad thing happens is a little silly, if you ask me.
But, at the same time, we don’t want a baby to turn into merely a form of punishment. If you believe the baby is so important it should be allowed to live, you don’t want to throw it around “like an old shoe” as you put it.
Aw man. These moral dilemmas are tough. You could run in circles all day and still not know exactly what to think.
I’ve confuzzled myself now. I don’t even know what I said, so if that all didn’t make sense you haven’t gone crazy.
Red-tailed HAWK
0
0
-
145
Elizabeth
in August 31st, 2008 @ 20:55Well now that we have the rules layed out and the abortion debate thoroughly beaten to death numerous times… can we move on to the ever coming election? I’m afraid we’ll find that most of us agree and the rest just give up (that’s why we return to abortion, because that’s one of the only topics we disagree on) but maybe we’ll be surprised.
just to start, I support Obama, with most interest in his support of alternative energy and health care and of course getting out of Iraq as quickly as possible though I know it’s a difficult thing.
0
0
-
146
 ¡Red-tailed HAWK!  [6,000 piepoints ©, 16 spdzk points and 22 KAG points] �|�
in August 31st, 2008 @ 21:07145-I try not to get involved in this sort of discussion. I do not express my political opinions, and do not necessarily feel I am ready to establish any anyway. I am not sure it is fair to say I would agree with one party every single time with every single candidate.
What I will say is, Obama’s speech was very moving, very inspiring. I enjoyed it. And I feel he made many good points, and there were loads of great quotes in there, if you ask me!
Red-tailed HAWK
0
0
-
147
Cat's Meow
in August 31st, 2008 @ 21:17145 – Maybe it’s just me, but I’m a little sick of the presidential election too. There has to be something else we could talk about.
0
0
-
148
Rebecca Lasley (Administrator)
in August 31st, 2008 @ 21:23(147) As Robert pointed out before, you don’t have to talk about anything. If there’s no pressing hot topic to discuss, go enjoy the rest of the blog. The thread will still be here if something comes along. Discussions tend to be more interesting if the participants are truly interested, not just trying to fill space because they think they should.
0
0
-
149
The Man For Aeiou
in August 31st, 2008 @ 21:29Here’s what I think we should have as rules (Adabtied from Ubuntu code of conduct):
Be considerate.
Be respectful.
Be collaborative.
When you disagree, consult others.
When you are unsure, ask for help.
0
0
-
150
Cat's Meow
in August 31st, 2008 @ 21:32148 – That’s true.
149 – Sounds fine to me. But, as Rebecca said, I don’t really think there’s much that we need to talk about right now.
0
0
-
151
Luna the Lovely
in August 31st, 2008 @ 21:49141: Wait, FrigidSymphony was banned? Like, from the entire MB? I guess that would explain why he’s not around–and hasn’t been for awhile. Actually, scarily enough, I’d just been thinking last night, “i wonder when/why” FS left….He was very opinionated, though, and often very offensive and antagonistic in his views, so I guess that makes sense…..anyways, way off topic here.
I know! What is all you MBers opinion of having individuals for whom english is NOT their first language as teachers (and I don’t mean as teachers of a foreign language, that would be reasonable, but as teachers in other courses)? That’s something I’m feeling very strongly against right now, hehehe. Makes it very hard to understand them, and get anything out of their lectures…..Probably not much of a hot topic, though.
0
0
-
152
 ¡Red-tailed HAWK!  [6,000 piepoints ©, 16 spdzk points and 22 KAG points] �|�
in August 31st, 2008 @ 21:58148-Very true.
149-Good.
151-I’m sorry, let me explain: A long time ago, like over a year ago, he said something very mean to me. It wasn’t the first time by any means, so he was banned for a week. That’s why I am a little sensitive about flaming and want to keep the blog flame-free.
Then he came back. He continued posting in his old way. But he finally decided he was so right and we were so wrong he wouldn’t stand it any longer, so he left. Real mature, I know. He violated every one of TMFA’s rules. But he did leave us alone, at least.
And after he left, he did something… very, very bad. That’s all I want to say about it.
Red-tailed HAWK
0
0
-
153
Luna the Lovely
in August 31st, 2008 @ 22:21152: oh. gotcha. d’you know, I never was that fond of him–and people who always think “i’m right, you’re wrong” really piss me off…..
And sorry for brining up what is clearly something of sore subject….
0
0
-
154
The Man For Aeiou
in August 31st, 2008 @ 22:27152- Really? What did he do? I know he’s on snip! .
0
0
-
155
Luna the Lovely
in August 31st, 2008 @ 22:38154: Let him alone–clearly he doesn’t want to go into the specifics
0
0
-
156
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 31st, 2008 @ 22:40151- I think it’s a great idea. But in order to do this, either the teacher would need to learn English or the students would need to learn that foreign language. And they would have to get the textbooks in a different dialect if the latter was imposed. It’s a bit of a hassle, but a good musing, nonetheless.
152- That’s strange and unsettling to hear. FrigidSymphony was a friend of mine when I first came to this blog, although admittedly when I returned from my lengthy leave of absence I didn’t see him around much anymore. Come to think of it, I only recently noticed his absence. Did he do something bad on the blog, or in the real world? That’s all I want to know. I don’t need to know what it was. I just want to make sure he’s okay. It is true that he was quite…outspoken, though. I hope that this trait didn’t bring him into harm’s way.
Why can’t we all just be considerate to one another? Everyone has a different opinion, and it’s no use trying to make anyone budge because they won’t. Everyone always thinks they are right and won’t rest until anyone else listens, which is why I eventually shy away from this kind of thread.Like I did on the Global Warming thread. It just got to be too intense of a position for me to try and defend myself anymore. Every point has two good arguments, pro and con, and neither side ever wants to change their mind.
From now on, I think that civil discussion should be a must on every thread. After all, we’re al friends here.
Two pies in every face! KOKO FOR PREZ!
-Aggie
0
0
-
157
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in August 31st, 2008 @ 22:45154- Oh, wait. That would make sense. Maybe he was too…um…to know what he was talking about. So I guess it’s good that he left before he did something potentially drastic.
0
0
-
158
 ¡Red-tailed HAWK!  [6,000 piepoints ©, 16 spdzk points and 22 KAG points] �|�
in September 1st, 2008 @ 10:07155-Thank you for your kindness and understanding, it really helps. *Hugs Luna*
157-I’m sorry Agrrrfishi, but I can’t say any more. And don’t want to, frankly. I don’t know, but if I understand your post correctly, I’ll say that’s not what I’m talking about. I don’t know if it’s true, but then again, I wouldn’t be surprised, anyway.
Sorry for being so vague. I can’t (and won’t) talk about it. *Shudders*
Red-tailed HAWK
0
0
-
159
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in September 1st, 2008 @ 10:59158- Okay, I respect the privacy and delicacy of the situation and I won’t press on anymore.
So, has anyone heard about the hurricane that’s about to hit New Orleans? Deja vu, don’t you agree?
0
0
-
160
Luna the Lovely
in September 1st, 2008 @ 11:37158–*hugs HAWK* glad to be of service
159: Another hurricane? How fun (please note sarcasm)
0
0
-
161
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in September 1st, 2008 @ 11:52160- Yes, terribly, let’s go rent out a clown and some party balloons. (also note sarcasm.
)
0
0
-
162
The Man For Aeiou
in September 1st, 2008 @ 12:26Photo Op time!
0
0
-
163
I-Man
in September 1st, 2008 @ 15:122 – That’s the kind of stuff that makes me unsure whether or not I like China.
0
0
-
164
Amelia Peabody
in September 1st, 2008 @ 20:36Somehow, McCain and his supporters going down to the areas that might be affected smells like political posturing to me.
But then again, its good if they put resources in to help people, even if it is for the wrong reasons.
This whole abortion debate reminds me: Sarah Palin has a daughter who’s seventeen and pregnant. And she’s going to have the baby and marry the father.
Reporters asked Obama about it, and he basically said that families are off limits and he wasn’t going to comment.
This makes me respect him a whole lot, especially after the very personal attacks that he’s been getting.
0
0
-
165
Cliff Eagle
in September 2nd, 2008 @ 18:40I reread the whole FS-Donaldo argument on the thread regarding homosexuality. Everyone regards FS as an enemy and talked about how crude and offensive he was. Looking back, I saw FS as an individual who chose to speak up about how he saw things. I expected him to be a swearing, obscene person who had no respect for others ideas. Instead, I found him one of the people who were trying to have a clean, honest discussion surrounded by people like Donaldo, who basically stated his “I’m right, you’re wrong” argument. He deserves a lot more respect than people give him. Stop treating him like he’s the Anti-Christ (ok, bad comparison).
0
0
-
166
Elizabeth
in September 3rd, 2008 @ 14:59164-yeah, I like his plan to keep it as clean an election as possible… unlike 4 years ago was. I personally think choosing Palin was a terrible mistake… but we’ll see.
165- I agree, I liked FS. The truth is that there are people like that out there and others have to learn to not be affected too much. Who cares if some guy that you don’t even know disagrees with you and can’t see it your way?? You obviously can’t see it his way either.
0
0
-
167
Vendaval
in September 3rd, 2008 @ 15:56165- No, I believe that he would like to be compared to the Anti-Christ
0
0
-
168
Cliff Eagle
in September 3rd, 2008 @ 16:15167- Exactly. that’s why I said “bad comparison”.
0
0
-
169
Amelia Peabody
in September 3rd, 2008 @ 18:24Who’s FS?
0
0
-
170
Kokonilly
in September 3rd, 2008 @ 20:14169 – Frigid Symphony.
0
0
-
171
Cliff Eagle
in September 3rd, 2008 @ 20:28169- Frigid Symphony was a great debater who stood up for what he believed in. Sometimes (actually, more than not) he could be obscene and degrading. On MB, you will likely hear 100 different opinions about FS, but most will agree that he is an MB legend. He was a radical atheist who strongly disagreed with anyone who believed in a Higher Power. He was not a “oh, well i’m right and your wrong” type person; he had strong and concise points to prove his arguments. One day, he took it too far and insulted an MBer crudely. He was banished for a week, came back for a while, and then decided that it was his time to leave. After the blog, he apparently did something worse, but since nobody will tell me, I don’t know what he did. This is just my views on FS. Some found him the most cruel individual ever to roam the MB.
0
0
-
172
☮iŹ√Ҳ!☮ (400 piepoints 40 brain points, 7 BP in reserve)☮
in September 3rd, 2008 @ 21:26Frigid Symphony exists on many other blogs relating to MuseBlog, (and hating it) and is basically the same. But yes, he was too outspoken for his views. His arguments, while well thought out, were often, as Cliff Eagle said, obscene and degrading, often condescending.
164- Choosing Palin was a terrible mistake–the real reason, I think, is that her husband is big in the oil business.
why Palin is a stupid choice:&rsaquo Lifetime member of the NRA
&rsaquo Almost no foreign policy experience
&rsaquo barely seen more of the world than Wasilla, AK.
that’s enough to start.
0
0
-
173
☮iŹ√Ҳ!☮ (400 piepoints 40 brain points, 7 BP in reserve)☮
in September 3rd, 2008 @ 21:26mistake with the HTML, sorry.
0
0
-
174
Elizabeth
in September 4th, 2008 @ 15:03172- I didn’t know that about her husband. Unfortunately, she gave a very good speech last night however I’ve heard that a lot of the things she said were lies, just completely not true. so that can’t be a good thing… what it says about one’s character to lie in a speech that countless people would hear (when I’ll admit she does have a number of things to say that are true and good)…I don’t know, ths could become a big mess. I don’t like how people focus on her personal life (same with all candidates) and not so much on her policies.
You know the other thing that is really wierd is that there is a lot more attention and focus on her than the guy that is actually running for president… I wonder if that is on purpose or what. McCain is rather invisible, like Palin is the face on this ticket and Obama is the face on the other.
well that’s enough ranting for now…more later
0
0
-
175
Luna the Lovely
in September 4th, 2008 @ 17:12(174): Elizabeth–I wasn’t able to watch the speech last night (to much things going on–and no tv). What things did she say that you have heard as being lies?
Additionally, I totally agree–they should focus more on the candidates policies then the personal life of the VP of one of them. Honestly, I don’t think the fact that she has five kids, one of them with Downs syndrome, one pregnant at 17, has anything to do with whether she will make a good VP.
Personally, I thinks he’s been a pretty decent governor, admittedly she’s not particularly experienced, but then, neither is Obama. He has pretty much zip experience too. And he may speak well, but what he says on a subject changes constantly–not very appealing in a presidential candidate.
0
0
-
176
purplefinch
in September 4th, 2008 @ 19:32The possible-black-hole-maker confuses me, and I’m supposing this post would do better as a HT post than a homework one. I’m wondering why anyone would want to create something that has even the slightest possiblity of causing their death, and the death, of, well, everything. On Earth, anyway. I’m, personally, incredibly frightened of dying, and the deaths of my loved ones. I don’t think I believe in God, and I don’t want to loose my life anytime sooner than I have to. I know that I’m seeming kind of selfish, but I’d rather live my life (AE slogan, *cough, die*) in ignorance of certain scientific facts than not live at all.
I’m pretty ignorant of the whole procedure… I don’t remember when I read that section in Muse (it wasn’t that long ago…) but I’m probably just being dumb and un-scientific, and I should probably just be quiet and re-read Bo’s page.
Maybe this should have been in the religions thread, instead…
Anyway, opinions?
0
0
-
177
purplefinch
in September 4th, 2008 @ 19:37Sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to say that do I realize that there’s only a very, very small chance that something like that would happen. But knowing the risks, why would you even try something like that?
0
0
-
178
gimanator
in September 4th, 2008 @ 19:47I would. Conclude my quest to prove I can create matter-small planets even.
172-Funny-the most disliked MBer gets remembered the best. Really Ironic.
0
0
-
179
Elizabeth
in September 4th, 2008 @ 21:50175- Obama isn’t all that unexperienced, I mean he was a senator, same as McCain. What has Obama said that flip-flops (I know it’s happened a lot on both sides, just wondering if you knew specifics) According to some people I’ve heard from in Alaska, she was corrupt, too. Like, her sister had a personal relationship with someone so Palin used her power as governor to fire him (he was a state trooper or something). And the fact that she’s pushing for oil from Alaska isn’t at all a conflict of interest…
I’ll have to get back to u on specifics… it’s getting late.
0
0
-
180
Ã߀ƒ
in September 4th, 2008 @ 22:34165, 166- I respect FS for his debating prowess and his straightforward attitude, but I can’t see him as a hero. He could have stated his beliefs in a considerate and respectful way. Instead, he basically went on a crusade to crush a religion. I think you should take a closer look at some of those old threads: he was not surrounded by “I’m right, you’re wrong” people, rather, it was he who wouldn’t listen to reason. He ignored or distorted their points, and eventually made them so frusterated that they couldn’t think of a civil thing to say (like Donaldo). What if some Christian tried to crush all of your cherished beliefs? One can’t help but be affected. I know I should just ignore all of Fridgey’s radical opinions, but I’m just stating my beliefs.
0
0
-
181
Luna the Lovely
in September 4th, 2008 @ 23:31Elizabeth–I can’t really think of any specifics with Obama right now–I seem to recall he was saying something to working class, and then next speech he turned around and was dissing the working class, but i could be confused on this.
As far as Palin goes, here’s what I know on the “scandal”. Palin fired the police commissioner (which she has the power and right to do, for whatever reason–not that I’m saying she should do it for personal reasons, but it is technically her perogative). Allegedly, she fired him because he refused to fire a trooper, who happened to be her sister’s ex-husband. According to Palin, she did not ask the commissioner to fire the trooper (I think his name is Wooten–the trooper, that is). Also, she says her reasons for firing the commissioner, were because a different commissioner would be more benenficial or some such thing.
As far as Wooten goes, yes, he was married to her sister once, yes, they went through a bad divorce, custody battle. Did Palin call for his removal, and fire the commissioner because he refused? I can’t say, but here are some things I know about Wooten, that make me think even if she did, I don’t really blame her (he really doesn’t seem like somebody I would want as a trooper):
He used a taser on his ten year old stepson–because his kid wanted to know what it was like. wtf? Are you kidding? You don’t tase a kid, even if they request it
alleged extreme verbal abuse against ex-wife #3 (Palin’s sis)
More minorly:
Shot a moose illegally, while he was a wildlife enforcement officer
debatable DUI in marked trooper vehicle
Personally, wooten sounds like he should be fired. Now, don’t get me wrong–I’m not saying that, if Palin did call for his removal, and was ignored, and this is why she fired Monegan (commissioner), that she was in the right. But i could certainly sympathize with her.
However, i would like to point out, that I don’t think they ever proved that she did fire Monegan because of Wooten.
0
0
-
182
Elizabeth
in September 5th, 2008 @ 14:57181- I heard about that from the repub nat’l convention, but I highly doubt it was as big a deal as they made it out to be (they didn’t even make it much of a big deal) They just look for anything to say that is bad and they twist their words around to make a true thing sound like it was completely different than it was… I’m not just saying the repubs are the only ones doing it, they all do, but the repubs do it more
and about this “scandal” I’ve heard this story twisted every which way… it’s really hard to ge the truth that isn’t tinted with one view or the other… it’s all so frustrating!!!
0
0
-
183
Axa
in September 11th, 2008 @ 19:32Alarming to me: Palin posed a “rhetorical” question to the libraian when she was mayor of the town in 1996 (i believe it was then) about removing books from the library. any muser should know that’s no good. the librarian told her the books were chosen in accordance with national guidelines etc etc. you can read more about it at ala’s website but it’s just ridiculous.
Another thing is she opposes abortion even in cases of rape and incest. which is wonderful. She also beleive creationism should be taught in schools. hey that’s cool, but let’s study greek myths in science class too! equally justifiable.
McCain has voted against Biden’s Violence Against Women act, which basically would provide free exams to victims of sexual assault. McCain has voted AGAINST this repeatedly: first against the legislation and then against its funding. Can anyone give me a reason for that?
oh what else…the republicans are now resorting to duplicitous tactics to win swing states. Not only are they trying to disenfranchise voters by foreclosing on homes (of mostly blacj voters i might add), but they’re sending out misleading ballots. copypasta here:
“”Misleading” absentee ballot applications are being mailed out by the McCain campaign to registered Democratic voters in purple states. The return addresses are inaccurate, as well as other information. “Misleading, lying” mailers are going out in Florida and other purple states. It’s a caging tactic. ”
I would be more that happy to give anyone inquiring minds sources, etc if it weren’t for mb’s policy on that. but it’s not that hard to find out what’s going on on your own.
0
0
-
184
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in September 11th, 2008 @ 21:44why does everyone hate sarah palin? just because she’s a woman? because she has a pregnant teenage daughter who’s STILL doing the responsible thing and having the child, not murdering it? she’s a good person, although faults are eminant. Nobody’s perfect, really. I’d be surprised if any one of us was a better person than Sarah Palin is.
0
0
-
185
The Man For Aeiou
in September 11th, 2008 @ 21:48184- She’s for abistnacy only, right?
0
0
-
186
Cat's Meow
in September 11th, 2008 @ 21:52184 – I don’t “hate” her at all, and particularly not just because she’s a woman. I don’t support her policies, or McCain’s, and that’s the only reason I wouldn’t vote for her.
0
0
-
187
Luna the Lovely
in September 11th, 2008 @ 22:04184–I don’t “hate” her. I disagree with her on some things, and don’t necessarily think she’s is the best person for the VP position, but none of that is because of her gender. I wouldn’t hesitate to vote for a woman for any political position if I thought she would do the best job of all the candidates.
As far as her daughter being pregnant, that makes absolutely no difference to me. I’m not judging her abilities as a VP based upon the fact that her daughter chose to have unprotected sex–I don’t really see how that reflects at all on Palin.
Additionally, as far as being a good person, I’m sure she is as “good” as anybody–but it takes more than being good to be the second in command of a country. And maybe she’d do great, I really can’t say–am I going to vote for McCain/Palin? Probably–although i don’t necessarily care for McCain, I think he is probably better for the country than Obama, although I don’t really think either of them are that spectacular of candidates.
0
0
-
188
Axa
in September 11th, 2008 @ 23:12184) It is her politics and not her personality that matters when running a country. Since it’s entirely possible that McCain could die during his first term, she should be examined with scrutiny, and I am in no way pleased with what I’ve found.
As I have stated above her stance on certain issues is at complete odds with mine. I’m so bored of all this talk and excuses about her personal life. Let’s get down to business folks, this is getting ridiculous. Her insistence on abstinence only education (as in no sex ed in schools), endorsement of creationism in school, denial of human part in global warming, constant reference to “God’s Plan” and “God’s Side”, and so so much more about her politics are utterly repulsive to me.
Her gender is irrelevant, although I personally believe she was chosen in a transparent ploy to either woo hillary supporters or balance out mccain’s age etc etc.
on the issue of abortion, you do realize that it is her choice to keep the baby. legislation that bans abortion is in my eyes the same as legislation that would make it mandatory, you cannot tell a person what to do like that.
0
0
-
189
KaiYves
in September 12th, 2008 @ 13:18188- I agree with what you’re saying. A denier of evolution and anthropogenic global warming simply should not be president of anywhere.
0
0
-
190
☮iŹ√Ҳ!☮ (400 piepoints 40 brain points, 2 wung points, 7 EBP in reserve)☮
in September 12th, 2008 @ 16:00184- she’s big in the oil business, too. As Axa said, gender is immaterial. She was picked to put McCain in the spotlight.
My politics might not agree with yours, Agrrrfishi, as a Democratic supporting liberal, but Sarah Palin’s politics do not work with the society we have. (Quoting Axa again)”God’s Plan” & “Gods Mission”? No. This does not work. Anyone who uses religious references in politics does NOT need to be the Vice President of one of the largest countries in the world.
No hard feelings.
0
0
-
191
Cat's Meow
in September 17th, 2008 @ 20:59Whatever the result of this election, at least one good thing has come out of it: it’s amazing to me that a clear majority of my classmates at school think nothing of supporting a black man or a white woman to be president. Most kids don’t look at his race or her gender as an asset or a disadvantage. It just is.
Yeah, many adults are still hung up on the fact that he’s black and she’s a woman. But, eventually, our generation, a generation that wasn’t even alive when Martin Luther King Jr. made his famous speech or during women’s rights movements, will make up the majority of the voters in this country. Maybe then we can focus on the real issues instead of somebody’s race or gender.
Now that’s change we can really believe in.
0
0
-
192
I-Man
in September 17th, 2008 @ 21:26Obama bombed his campaign with the “lipstick on a pig,” and then denying it. Seriously.
OK, we’re all doomed. Here’s my reasoning:
1.Victimization (reason: we could destroy the government)
2.global warming (IT EXISTS!)
3.Oil crisis (we’re going to blow ourselves up with all of this stuff)
4.War (is there a reason why we go to war?)
5.Terrorism (no exp. needed)Here’s my next theory on the possibilities:
1.We save the world. 1% chance.
2.We screw up one or more problem, which causes a chain reaction and we blow ourselves up. 49.5% chance.
3.If our problems stay the same until 2060, we become hippies like we did in the 1960s. This time, however, it’s 100 times greater magnitude. The rest of the world notices us, thinks we’re freaks, and we blow ourselves up. 49.5% chance.So what’s a smart guy to do? Two solutions:
We send our arrogant, short-sighted nutballs to some deserted island, while the rest of the world does the same. This’ll never happen – most gov. officials don’t want to send themselves to some deserted island. *grins, then looks around to see if people get joke*or, you buy the $10 plan for I-Man’s ocean bunker:
1.Extend your chimney so someone could fit through it and it’s long enough to span the ocean.
2.Stock a bunch of food, generators, water filters, and other necessities in your home.
3.Get a really fast speedboat.
4.Switch your job to work-at-home.
5.Encase your home in water-resistant, grade A, military hardened steel.
6.Use a helicopter to drop your home in the middle of the Atlantic and park your speedboat outside the chimney.
7.There. You are all set for the apocalypse!
0
0
-
193
Cat's Meow
in September 17th, 2008 @ 22:09192 – I honestly don’t think that the “lipstick on a pig” thing was meant about Palin, and I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. McCain said the exact same thing about Hillary Clinton’s health care plan during the primary season.
Yes, Palin has temporarily boosted McCain’s poll numbers, but we still have a long ways to go and Palin has only given one interview so far. There are much more important things to worry about then lipstick, and I think America will realize that Palin’s positions weigh her current rock star appeal down.
0
0
-
194
Vixen in the Eyes of Moon
in September 18th, 2008 @ 08:01Palin is evil. She honestly scares me.
0
0
-
195
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in September 18th, 2008 @ 14:51294- Evil? What are your reasons for saying so?
Really though, why is religion such a problem here? Let’s face it, Palin and McCain are appealing to the Republican voters a s a majority, and a greater percentage of those voters are of the Christian faith. It’s not a bad thing to reassure the citizens of her faith that the lord will see this campaign and this country through these difficult times, although an overexcessive amount of this can be a detrimental add-on to her campaign. McCain would not just choose Palin if she were a wing-ding in politics, which she ISN’T . He would not choose her just to ‘woo the Hilary supporters’. He chose her as his vice president because she is a good politician, and I think that the media is overplaying her personal life too strongly.
Also, I think it’s very strange just to say that Palin would not make a good vice president because she doesn’t believe in abortion and doesn’t think that humans are the primary cause of global warming. I have noticed throughout my years that most people stereotype Republicans off as ‘nonbelievers’, rich people, old guys, or stuck-up jerks. I am NONE of these, my friends, and yet that’s still what people associate with Republicanism. It makes me sad to think that beliefs can tear a country apart.
0
0
-
196
KaiYves
in September 19th, 2008 @ 13:17192- Yeah, but that underwater bunker won’t protect us from an asteroid impact. Instead, I propose we run away to the Moon.
0
0
-
197
I-Man
in September 19th, 2008 @ 16:57196 – It’s not meant for survival, it’s meant to shut you off from society.
Oh, I left out a step:
Install a metal ladder in your new chimney.
0
0
-
198
Axa
in September 19th, 2008 @ 19:50195) Her abortion policy is that if someone gets raped and pregnant from it it’s cool that they 1) have to pay for their medical assessment and 2) cannot have the choice whether or not to end the pregnancy. Joe Biden initiated the Violence Against Women Act which McCain voted against putting into effect as well as voting against raising funding for it.
It is not that anyone in the united states is pro-abortion, it’s that I believe it is none of my government’s business what I do with my life in that respect, that their particular religious views on the matter or opinions should not apply to a diverse and free thinking population.
Related to that is the fact that not all Americans are Christian, by the nature of the Constitution we are not meant to be a Christian state. Therefore someone telling me that it’s she hopes we have god on our side in the war in iraq is repulsive. I want to know what she’s going to do about it, not what god is going to do about it.The media overplays her personal life because she hasn’t given many interviews. Not one press conference since being named vp nominee, and the only televised interview I can think of is the one on abc which I was underwhelmed with. She dodged questions, even when asked a straightforward yes/no. Yes her speeches are shown in clips but that’s not really the same.
her manner of speaking is immature. “I think he was first elected when I was like in second grade,” Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin says of Sen. Joe Biden in part two of the interview she’s done with Fox News Channel’s Sean Hannity.
faux news is obv not the best source but you see what I’m saying.There’s the issue of the earmarks and whatever whatever bridge to nowhere that has been totally debunked, her proposal for transparency in Washington (putting the gov. checkbook online) that was already in effect thanks to none other than barack obama (I can give you the link), her off the cuff comments about russia which are SO so dangerous to be making (“What we have got to commit to also, especially when we talk to Russia. No cold war. We have got to know that our mindset needs to be opportunity for pressure and diplomacy and sanctions if need be as we keep our eye on a country like Russia.”)
I have more I could give but I have to go. no personal offense meant as always, I enjoy debate and this is an important matter.
0
0
-
199
♫ Syllabub ♪
in September 27th, 2008 @ 19:04Did anyone watch the debate last night? McCain is really starting to annoy me. He never answers a question with a straight answer, and everything somehow ends up being about when he was at war. I totally respect him for his service to his country, but, seriously. Enough with the war talk. It’s unnessicary for this war to be happening, and if McCain is president, more people will be killed. At first when Obama was nominated, I was a bit weary that he was so inexperienced. But when he chose Biden as his vice-presidential candidate, I felt better. Biden has had so much political experience, he will be a good reference to Obama. An interesting fact: Biden started working for the government when Obama was eleven.
Anyways, I hope other people will post on this thread more often.
0
0
-
200
The Bookworm & Lurline (410 piepoints and three B-Day Points and 42 KAG Points!)
in September 28th, 2008 @ 08:57Both of them are irritating me. I mean, nobody gave a straight answer at the debate. Jim Lehrer kept saying “Talk to each other. Talk to each other!” But neither of them would do anything but avoid the questions and say their own talking points over and over and over again! i mean, it wasn’t even a debate. They weren’t even debating! Frankly, I don’t want either of them as President. However, I think Obama’s viewpoints are better than McCain’s, and I hope Obama is President. Nonetheless, I don’t really like either of them!
0
0
-
201
♫ Syllabub ♪
in September 29th, 2008 @ 17:16200-I agree about the debate. I don’t think any politicians give straight answers.
I can’t wait for the VP debate! It should be interesting…..
0
0
-
202
Beavo
in September 29th, 2008 @ 18:58People at my school were all “OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA” until someone found that bill that supported after-birth abortion (what?) and now they’re like “Obama is a sick mother effer, I’m not voting.”
0
0
-
203
Robert Coontz (Administrator)
in September 29th, 2008 @ 19:15Are you saying that Obama favors infanticide? That sounds implausible. What’s the background?
0
0
-
204
Taiwan Hippo Fan
in September 29th, 2008 @ 19:19202 – That was probably just one of those senator things, he can’t have meant it.
Gah! I really did have a hot topic to post, but I forget what it was.
0
0
-
205
Beavo
in September 29th, 2008 @ 19:23A Youtube video. It was very uninformative and extremely dramatic. And plus, it’s from someone else’s viewpoint, not his. The name is “I Invented the Internet (Ep. 4: Kill and Destroy)”. I don’t know what that has to do with infantacide, but yeah. I can’t post the link.
Oh, BTW, the Stock Market’s down like 770 something points. We’re not going down the drain, we’re already half way to the sewer. Wachovia lost 90% of it’s value in pre-market trading and never reopened. Nas-Daq dropped a bunch, and it’s farther than the Dow.
0
0
-
206
Kokonilly
in September 29th, 2008 @ 19:40205 – BUY! BUY! BUY! NO, DON’T SELL! BUY!
0
0
-
207
Kokonilly
in September 29th, 2008 @ 19:41((Oh, yes, I did have a hot topic, but I forgot. So sorry. That was incredibly random.
))
0
0
-
208
I-Man
in September 30th, 2008 @ 13:30200 – Yeesh. When I was watching that with my parents, partway through the second question I paused and yelled, “ANSWER THE QUESTION!”
202 – what the…? that’s just crazy and weird
0
0
-
209
Vixen in the Eyes of Moon
in September 30th, 2008 @ 16:15Palin’s anti enviromental attitude frightens me.
0
0
-
210
♫ Syllabub ♪
in September 30th, 2008 @ 16:23I find it rather scary that if McCain gets elected, then something happens to McCain and he dies, Palin will be our president.
(Not to offend Palin supporters, this is my personal view.)
0
0
-
211
LadyGaladriel, currently residing in the forest of Lothlorien
in September 30th, 2008 @ 16:29This is my first post on this thread, so I don’t really know what’s going on… but has anyone seen a. Palin’s interview with Katie Couric or b. the SNL version of Palin’s interview with Katie Couric?
0
0
-
212
peary moppins
in September 30th, 2008 @ 16:44210) Scaaary.
0
0
-
213
Luna the Lovely
in September 30th, 2008 @ 16:58211–I watched some of the SNL version of the interview…can’t say I really cared for it, and didn’t find it particularly funny, just sickening (especially their Katie Couric imitator….) Then, like the next day, I saw a small clip, of Palin discussing Russia and foreign policy, and it was disturbing, as I realized: “SNL’s parody of that portion of the inteview really wasn’t that far off…..” It was scary. seriously
0
0
-
214
Kokonilly
in September 30th, 2008 @ 18:13202 – After-birth abortion? WTF?
210 – Why, you’re right! How terrifying!
211 – I thought both were kind of funny.
0
0
-
215
Cat's Meow
in September 30th, 2008 @ 18:28213 – Yeah. It was scary. The closeness to the actual interview was sad and scary. It made me wonder why he chose Palin at all. Because she can see Russia from her house?
I liked the first Palin SNL skit, with “Hillary”. Now that was hilarious.
0
0
-
216
♫ Agrrrfishi (Aggie), who is sick of points and has removed them from her name henceforth and forthwith♫
in September 30th, 2008 @ 21:33215- Oh my gosh. THAT WAS EPIC.
“I guess I just should have wanted it MORE! *fumes*”
LOL LOL LOL
I love SNL.I think I need to leave this thread right now before I explode angrily. As parting words, I’m sorry if my facts have ever caused any offense. meant no harm. Also, when Obama is elected and pulls the troops out and we all die in a fiery explosion because all of the Osama Bin Laden people hate us for destroying their reign and ruining their country which we were over there to rebuild but Obama can’t understand that so the Osamites come over and bomb us all to death in another episode like 911, I’ll probably have to put an “I told you so” in there.
Good night.
(GAPAS, you can clip that if you want. I just needed to rant a little teensy weensy itty bit. Sorry. )
0
0
-
217
⚔⚓vendaval⚓⚔
in September 30th, 2008 @ 22:29The lack of need to change words for the Fey impression of Palin is very scary. The Biden-Palin debate has a lot of potential.
216- Erm, flawed logic.
0
0
-
218
Ã߀ƒ
in October 1st, 2008 @ 00:12210- Well, then she’ll be the first woman to become president of the United States. And that, my friend, is when you move to Australia.
0
0
-
219
Luna the Lovely
in October 1st, 2008 @ 09:12218–so, are you saying move to Australia if there is a woman president, or just if a specifici woman–Palin–becomes president? Because I definitely disagree with the former…..
0
0
-
220
KaiYves
in October 1st, 2008 @ 11:30218, 219- Yes, it would be nice to have a woman president, but it’s more important to elect somebody who would actually be a good president than it is to elect somebody unsuitable just because they are a woman. That would be cliqueish and petty.
0
0
-
221
Luna the Lovely
in October 1st, 2008 @ 15:15220–Oh, I totally agree (and if my comment implied otherwise, well it wasn’t intentional). I wouldn’t vote for a woman for president just because she was a woman, as her policies would be more important to be than the coolness of having a woman for president…..
0
0
-
222
Vixen in the Eyes of Moon
in October 1st, 2008 @ 15:58219- Ã߀ƒ means that we should move to ausralia if Palin becomes president, not when a woman becomes president. (I think.)
Well, I’M happy that I don’t live in the US.
0
0
-
223
KaiYves
in October 1st, 2008 @ 17:03I’d gladly move to Australia, really. I’ve been there and it’s very nice.
0
0
-
224
LadyGaladriel, currently residing in the forest of Lothlorien
in October 1st, 2008 @ 17:22We might move to Canada, England or Ireland.
0
0
-
225
The Man For Aeiou
in October 1st, 2008 @ 18:25McCain= Moves to canada.
0
0
-
226
KaiYves
in October 1st, 2008 @ 18:39Canada’s good, too.
0
0
-
227
♫ Syllabub ♪
in October 1st, 2008 @ 18:50218-
The SNL videos were hilarious! While I’m on the topic of funny political videos, has anyone seen the Paris Hiltion one in response to McCain’s add with her in it?
0
0
-
228
Cliff Eagle
in October 1st, 2008 @ 19:52Umm… a lot of people said that they were moving to another country after Bush was reelected, but you’re leaving family and friends behind and its not like were experiencing extreme persecution here, and if McCain gets elected its our own fault for voting for him.. calm down. Its not like were living in an opressive dictatorship.
0
0
-
229
⚔⚓Vendaval⚓⚔
in October 1st, 2008 @ 22:05227- They were funny, but too close to reality for me.
228- Well, I think that most of these people are exaggerating, but not without due concern. I would not say that it is my fault for electing McCain if I vote for Obama. That’s ridiculous. I would say that banning abortion would be oppressive, no? That’s not dictatorship, ok, but Bush has taken this country in the wrong direction, I feel, and it looks as if McCain hopes to do the same.
0
0
-
230
Cliff Eagle
in October 2nd, 2008 @ 14:59Whiny liberals- all you talk about is how mean bush is to you. Oh, bush, he’s a dictator. Oh, bush, he’s eliminated democracy. And don’t get me wrong, I hate bush, but I’d rather live in a country controlled by 10 george bushes than a country controlled by one Kim Jong Il or one Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or one Islam Korimov (look him up, he’s got a nasty rap sheet).
0
0
-
231
Cat's Meow
in October 2nd, 2008 @ 15:25230 – Yes, our country is better then many other countries, but its democracy isn’t as solid and our freedoms aren’t as respected as they used to be.
Also, the Bush administration’s policies has greatly reduced the world’s perception of America. Ordinary people in China or Russia don’t often get to know ordinary people from America. Thus, they probably stereotype us as much as we stereotype them, and think we’re all like the main people from our country they’d see: politicians and CEOs of enormous corporations. Does anyone here think that an average American is accurately represented by the politicians and CEOs of this country?
0
0
-
232
Vendaval
in October 2nd, 2008 @ 15:41You mean Islom Karimov?
I agree with Cat’s Meow completely. You say that Bush isn’t that bad compared to dictators, but he’s supposed to be a fair leader who respects things like human rights and constitutional law. The lack of outrage over his (and other officials’) infractions is also troubling, how can you say that I’m WHINING about GUANTANAMO BAY?
0
0
-
233
The Man For Aeiou
in October 2nd, 2008 @ 22:56Ways Bush Undermined Our Core Freedoms
-The Patriot act
-The Suspension of Habis Corpus
-All the bad things he did with Gitmo and Abu grav (Torture)
-NSA warrent-less phone taps
0
0
-
234
Kokonilly
in October 3rd, 2008 @ 15:02228 – *coughsarcasmcough*
231 – Woah. They think of us as that??? No wonder the rest of the world hates us.
222 – *jealousy*I personally would pack up and go to England.
0
0
-
235
Ӝ ҉Piggy҉ Ӝ (Current High Bailiff)
in October 5th, 2008 @ 09:39202, etc.- It is probably partial-birth abortion, in which a child is born, stabbed, and left to die. While in the Illinois senate, Obama voted in favor of a bill allowing greater access to these abortions. It’s sick, disgusting, and murderous.
0
0
-
236
Zinc the sorceress and Leafygreen
in October 5th, 2008 @ 09:53231- I’m starting a pen pal relationship with my gramma’s sister’s grandkid, and she’s my age. Luckily, she knows English, and I don’t get confused at her letters. I’m gonna type up her letter now.
0
0
-
237
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in October 5th, 2008 @ 10:01I’m ashamed of us.
If it’s true that everyone wants to raise up their country and make it a better place to live, then why would any of us rush off to another country and abandon our own in its’ time of need? John F. Kennedy once told us, “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.” Instead of whining about the mistakes that people have made, why can’t we try and be supportive of one another in this time of dire loss and need? it’s ridiculous how one election and two split parties are tearing this country apart, pitting friends and family against one another and separating the Democrats from the Republicans. It’s terrile and it’s wrong. Instead of drawing apart, we should be coming closer together for the greater good of America, and for the greater good of ourselves.
That’s all I have to say.
0
0
-
238
Zinc the sorceress and Leafygreen
in October 5th, 2008 @ 10:32237- Whoa. Ditto.
0
0
-
239
Kokonilly
in October 5th, 2008 @ 12:17237 – Yes. Quite intense.
0
0
-
240
Rainbowstar
in October 5th, 2008 @ 12:45I heard that Sarah Palin wants to have creationism taught in schools. Does anyone know if this is true or not? If it is, it shouldn’t be. Imagine going to science class and learning about how God created everything, and how evolution and the Big Bang are all lies. Sadly, most people at my school would probably be fine with that. As far as I know, I am the only atheist at my school except for my sisters.
0
0
-
241
Robert Coontz (Administrator)
in October 5th, 2008 @ 12:52(240) Rainbowstar: As I understand it, Palin was asked about creationism in schools once while she was running for governor. She was sympathetic to the idea but hasn’t done anything about it while in office. It’s not a part of the Republican party’s platform in this election, and there’s no reason to think that a McCain-Palin administration would push for it if they were to win the election.
0
0
-
242
☮iŹ√Ҳ!☮ (400 piepoints 40 brain points, 2 wung points, 7 BP in reserve)☮
in October 5th, 2008 @ 13:08237- ditto.
240- Yeah. Atheism, or at least non-practicing religion should be a requirement for Presidency. I’m not saying that I’m biased–but people in power shouldn’t base their decisions on their own personal beliefs when so many people suffer for something no one can prove.
Sorry, but that’s just wrong. Obama is religious, but he doesn’t use it as a basis for his decisions. There’s a difference here-what’s good for you, and what’s good for the people as a whole. There’s been too much confusion of that in the Bush administration.
0
0
-
243
Cliff Eagle
in October 5th, 2008 @ 13:20242- “Yeah. Atheism, or at least non-practicing religion should be a requirement for Presidency.”
That is incredibly biased and discriminatory. Do you realize that when you say that, its exactly the same as saying our president needs to be Christian! The president can be whatever religion he/she wants to, just like normal people. Its in the constitution that runs our country, so it would be completely stupid for the person running our country to be forced to violate it. What I think is that the President can be religious, just not force it on people like McCain-Palin does.
0
0
-
244
The Bookworm & Lurline (410 piepoints and three B-Day Points and 42 KAG Points! And 8 Wung Points!)
in October 5th, 2008 @ 14:28I think that anybody of any religion should be able to become President, as long as they don’t enforce their views on others.
235- “It is probably partial-birth abortion, in which a child is born, stabbed, and left to die. While in the Illinois senate, Obama voted in favor of a bill allowing greater access to these abortions. It’s sick, disgusting, and murderous.”
I have to say, I think that is a gross exageration. They are not “born, stabbed and left to die”. It’s “killed” before extraction, not stabbed and left to die. However, I would hardly call it killing. It’s killing about as much as eating eggs is killing.
0
0
-
245
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in October 5th, 2008 @ 14:37239- Sorry was that too flamey? I’m sorry if it was. I just had an argument with my best friend (she’s a democrat and I’m an independant who’s Republican-inclined) about the election and everything, and it was really intense and I’m sorry I fought with her and I’m really just not proud of myself. I’ll be glad when all of this is over and we can have four more years of peace.
As for the creationism in schools, the only reason I would oppose it is because I’ve already learned all that in Sunday school and it would be a waste of paper to take more tests on it. Atheism should definetly NOT be required for presidency. It doesn’t matter what religion you are, as long as you do your job well. Also, when you said that nobody can prove the existence of God or Jesus, I would do a little research on the Mountain of Medjagori, in europe. Mary has appeared to millions of hikers that travel there each year. C0onversions of all types have taken place because the voice of Mary or God was heard, and they had visions of the blessed mother standing before them. The sister that teaches my Social Studies class visited Medjagori three years ago, and Mary appeared to her as she was helping a disabled man up the mountain. And do you know what happened afterward? This man, who had no use of his legs for years and whom the doctors claimed could never get better was miraculously healed on that mountaintop, and he has been able to walk properly ever since. It’s a really amazing and moving story, and thousands of people hike that mountain every year for prayer, healing and strength. If that’s not proof enough, there are youtube videos of the sun turning black on that mountaintop, and visions of Mary also coming to the churches below. My teacher also has an astounding picture: she caught Mary with her hands in prayer on the mountain. It’s so genuine, and was taken with a disposable camera and wasn’t tampered with. I can ask her for that pictur, if you’d like.
But, reallly, religion shouldn’t matter in the election, I agree that Palin is powerplaying it a bit too hard.
0
0
-
246
KaiYves
in October 5th, 2008 @ 15:31Anybody remember that scene from Disney’s The Haunted Mansion where the real estate agent and her kid have just arrived at the mansion? The kid sees a cemetery…
Kid: There’s dead people in the backyard! How the heck can you sell a house where there are dead people in the backyard?
Agent: “Historical charm… spacious grounds…”
Kid: But what about the DEAD PEOPLE in the backyard?Me: The woman denies Global Warming!
Newspapers: She’s a woman… nice glasses… pretty…
Me: But she denies GLOBAL WARMING!
0
0
-
247
The Bookworm & Lurline (410 piepoints and three B-Day Points and 42 KAG Points! And 8 Wung Points!)
in October 5th, 2008 @ 16:26246-That is a GREAT analogy!
0
0
-
248
Kokonilly
in October 5th, 2008 @ 17:32245 – No, not too flamey. I think you make an excellent point.
246 – Nice.
0
0
-
249
⚔⚓Vendaval⚓⚔
in October 5th, 2008 @ 18:29245- But that’s not scientific proof.
0
0
-
250
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in October 5th, 2008 @ 18:48249- Proof, nevertheless. Faith doesn’t have to be scientific.
0
0
-
251
Ã߀ƒ
in October 5th, 2008 @ 19:01Stupid little story I just typed up for no reason…
Government: We’re controlling health care prices. Now everyone can get cheap, affordable health care.
Everyone: Yay!
Doctors: Dang!
Government: Hey, shut up. Health care is as essential to our country as food and education, so we can’t have you stupid doctors jacking up the prices.
Doctors: But we went through all that work! Straight A’s, 4 year colleges, med-school…we should get back some reward! Like lots of money!
Government: Nope. You see, doctors, we don’t want just the rich people getting all the health care. There’s a lot of poor people who are sick, too.
Doctors: Maybe if they worked harder, they would get more money.
Government: Don’t say offensive things like that! Now, get to work! Make people healthy!
Doctors: This sucks. We’re through being doctors.
Government: Come back here! The country can’t function without you! Come back, or we’ll send you to jail!
Doctors: You can’t do that, it’s a free country. We should be allowed to pursue happiness. If you need us, let us have more money.
Government: Never!!! The society as a whole is more important than the needs of a few individuals!
Doctors: Geez, this is crazy. We’re leaving. *leave*
Government: That’s it! No more freedom! No more happiness! No more emotion! No more anything! The survival of our country is more important than anything! *turns America into a horrible dystopia not unlike the society presented by Lois Lowry’s novel The Giver*
0
0
-
252
⚡☽Luna the Lovely☾⚡
in October 5th, 2008 @ 19:11251–interesting…..
0
0
-
253
Zinc the sorceress and Leafygreen
in October 5th, 2008 @ 19:19251- I like the Giver, along with the first book of Ember.
0
0
-
254
Piggy (Current High Bailiff)
in October 7th, 2008 @ 07:58237- The only problem is that Democrats and Republicans have different ideas about what’s best for our country. It isn’t that they are fighting just to fight, but rather fighting so they can do what they think is the right thing to do. We can’t just “come together,” because our ideas are so different.
0
0
-
255
⚔⚓Vendaval⚓⚔
in October 7th, 2008 @ 14:34250- But how can you define proof then? I trust science to definitively prove things, faith is a lack of proof. You can use it to support your own views, but that doesn’t hold up to much unbiased examination.
0
0
-
256
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie} (14 piepoints, 22 sdpzk points)♫
in October 7th, 2008 @ 15:15254- We have to set aside these differences. What’s best for the country will be done, but until we can come to a fair and just decision, we ought to try and make peace at it. When it all comes down to it, none of this really matters, all the fighting and anger and difference of opinion. It’s who’s going to lead our country in the best way. Even though the candidates will make promises, they’re not going to do everything they say they will, or do anything the peoples’ way, either. It’s just not going to happen. It never has.
0
0
-
257
Ӝ ҉Piggy҉ Ӝ (Current High Bailiff)
in October 7th, 2008 @ 17:09256- You’re missing the entire point of democracy. The point is to do what’s best for the country by debate and difference of opinion. No differences, no democracy. I’m sorry, but I’ve not found a particle of logic in your plea.
0
0
-
258
I-Man
in October 22nd, 2008 @ 15:03You people are all missing the point: WHY DO WE CARE?!!?!
Seriously. Even if you were the greatest guy in the century, the smartest guy in the world several centuries from now (and I personally doubt the world will make it that long) will not even know your name. THUS, we are forgotten; THUS, we may as well sit around watching TV and eating nachos.
0
0
-
259
Kari
in November 17th, 2008 @ 17:32I just looked up states where same-sex marriages are legal, and there’s only a few. One of the ones where it’s illegal being where I live.
Ugh. Isn’t that against the constitution; something like that?
Just…ugh.
0
0
-
260
The Man For Aeiou
in November 17th, 2008 @ 18:39259- Statute bans same-sex marriage.
0
0
-
261
I-Man
in December 11th, 2008 @ 13:16I came up with another reason why America is a bone-headed country.
My dad subscribes to a bunch of list serves for parents of gifted kids, and there was this one parent who had a kid like me: 12 years old (technic., I’m 13 now), already in high school, and very sensitive. So he was in this one theater class, and a girl (who didn’t know him very well) picked him up and spun him around – kind of like you would down on the beach with your boy/girlfriend on a really good day or something.
Well, he didn’t really like that, so when she put him down, he spat on her. She didn’t like that, so she punched him, threw him down, and tried to choke him, and it took 3 other students to get her off. Now here’s the bone-headed part.
The girl got one day of suspension. The boy got one day of probation.
0
0
-
262
Zallie
in December 11th, 2008 @ 16:26.261 – I fail to see how that is an example of the ‘bone-headed’-ness of America. Maybe that shows how ‘boneheaded’ some school officials can be, but hardly the entire country.
Ugh, children should never be pushed ahead in school. It’s such a silly idea.
0
0
-
263
I-Man
in December 11th, 2008 @ 17:58262 – No, it was the police that punished the kids. I mean, spitting could be dangerous if the spitter has a deadly disease or something, but in that case, the kid’s parents probably wouldn’t have let him go to school, hmm?
0
0
-
264
Luna the Lovely (11.5 Potterpoints!)
in December 11th, 2008 @ 18:28262–perhaps they shouldn’t be pushed ahead, but they certainly shouldn’t be held back, either. I mean, if they are intelligent enough to do work above their techincal grade level, they should be allowed to advance, skipping grades if necessary. Actually, that’s one of the reasons my parents started homeschooling my sister and me, because the public schools would not allow us to advance. The school’s sentiment was basically, oh your second grader (and fourth grader) are capable of doing 3rd/4th (5th/6th) grade work, well that’s too bad, screw them, we’re going to make her do the grade-level work that she has clearly demonstrated she is more than capable of mastering, because we couldn’t possibly allow them to do harder work that would actually challenge them.
So, no I don’t think parents should force kids to work above a decently challenging level, but if the kid in question is not being challenged sufficiently at whatever his/her techincal grade level is, he/she should certainly be allowed to excel.
0
0
-
265
Vendaval
in December 11th, 2008 @ 19:14261- Grrrr. I disagree. You say that you have a reason, but you only give an anecdote.
America is a bone-headed country.
As much as I dislike many American values, customs, and leaders, these things do not make all of America “bone-headed.”
My dad subscribes to a bunch of list serves
I do not trust unsourced information from the internet. Especially on mailing lists.
already in high school, and very sensitive.
He should not have been in high school. Especially if his first reaction was to spit.
263- What’s wrong with punishing the kids?264- Uhm, no. That’s not what the schools were thinking. Probably, they didn’t want kids jumping around grades because you could probably end up with an emotionally immature kid in a high stress environment. Heck, I sometimes feel emotionally immature and I’m at grade level.
0
0
-
266
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫
in December 11th, 2008 @ 19:23So, to get the ball rolling, what are everyone’s opinions on capital punishment?
0
0
-
267
Luna the Lovely (11.5 Potterpoints!)
in December 11th, 2008 @ 19:25265–uhm, yes. that is pretty much exactly what the schools were thinking. I think my parents know what they’re talking about, and talked and argued with the school board and all the peoples that be enough that they know exactly what the school’s reasoning was, and realizing that the school/school board/whomever would never see reason, they did the only thing they could–homeschooled us.
Like I said, this wasn’t the only reason my parents pulled us out, it wasn’t just that we weren’t allowed to excel to a challenging level, but also that my sister, at least, had two teachers in a row who were both something of jerks. In third grade, she had this teacher who expected entirely too much of the class, I mean, my sister was seriously doing homework nonstop. the next year (the year we were pulled out), it was a total joke. the curriculum was the exact same, (different teacher), except they didn’t do anything. all the teacher wanted to do was plays. I mean, it was seriously, one right after another, that’s pretty much all that teacher wanted to do, the real course work was a joke.
so, that combined with teh fact that they wouldn’t allow us to do work at the level we were capable of, is basically why we were homeschooled.
0
0
-
268
Zallie
in December 11th, 2008 @ 21:11.265 (Vendaval): “emotionally immature kid in a high stress environment.”
Exactly..264 (Luna) – Just because a child can work/read/multiply at a level above their age doesn’t mean they are emotionally (or physically) mature enough to be pushed ahead. If a child is really that advanced, he or she could be doing independent study work, extracurricular academics etc. In grade school, there is a tremendous maturity gap between a second grader and, say, a first grader. In middle school, social issues are already enough of a problem, without having kids who are younger/smaller/less mature present. In highschool, I have less of a problem with kids being pushed ahead, but by that point, it’s a bit silly to push a student ahead because they will have a hard time catching up and highschool credits are a pain to organize.
Graduating early from highschool/with a GED is another matter. By that point, people are relatively equivalent in terms of maturity, so a 17 year old going to school with 18 year olds isn’t a big deal.
.263 (I-Man) – Okay, so the cops are boneheads. That hardly proves your case that America is a ‘boneheaded’ country.
0
0
-
269
Red-tailed HAWK
in December 11th, 2008 @ 21:56If you want an example of “bone-headed” America, take the school issue:
With all due respect, I must agree with Luna. It’s absurd to hold someone back if they’re fully prepared to tackle material that is beyond what a bunch of strangers determined was universally acceptable at a given age. They shouldn’t be pushed, but if they can and want to advance, who are you to stop them? If you’re “emotionally immature,” sorry, but that hardly pertains to me. If you think we are all precisely identical organisms that reproduce by mitosis and proceed at precisely the same rate in precisely the same areas of study, then I would strongly urge you to rethink your viewpoint, because this notion is a rather strange one that I feel is rather flawed.
How would you feel if every first grader was suddenly forced into third grade? In your model, everyone would still be at precisely the same level of “emotional immaturity,” but the students who were mentally capable of the work would finally be able to do something that would challenge and interest them and prevent their minds from denaturing.
I think it’s time to stop thinking of every person of a given age as exactly the same amino acid as every other person their age, and start thinking of each person as a different protein, composed of a unique sequence of amino acids that combine to create a totally different, independent individual. Life is the ribosome. Your potential is the mRNA. The days and weeks and years of your life are the anticodons. The events that shape your life are the tRNA. And what do you get? Amino acids strung together in a polypeptide. This could be a person, a unique individual. Or maybe the polypeptide will associate with other polypeptides to form a group. Either way, a different individual results, and no one individual is better than another. All are proteins, but that is all.
And no, that’s not to show off. It’s to explain my viewpoint in a different manner. I actually enjoy relating seemingly normal topics to biological processes. If that bothers you, I apologize, but it bothers me when people try to establish one path in life as being superior to another, one individual superior to another because en fits into the active site of the enzyme of life (there I go again! *Smacks self*). If something’s working out for you, great! But don’t force it on other people, please.
I don’t mean to sound mean, and hope I don’t, but I don’t feel people should be allowed to openly attack a whole group of decent people without a fair response.
Red-tailed HAWK
0
0
-
270
I-Man
in December 11th, 2008 @ 22:25265 – My point is, they gave the boy a worse offense than the girl for a lesser crime.
0
0
-
271
Rebecca Lasley (Administrator)
in December 11th, 2008 @ 22:30(269) In fairness, I didn’t see anything that looked like an attack.
I’m don’t disagree with your basic point; on the other hand, schools need practical, logistical means of serving large numbers of students from an incredibly diverse array of backgrounds and income levels. The public school system in my county serves over 70,000 students. That is a small city.
A small city that also happens to be chopped up and parceled out (unequally) across two towns and adjacent areas. That is also (and always has been) trapped in the middle of any number of political divides, is perpetually short of funds, and sorely in need of upgrades in its infrastructure. In other words, pretty typical of most any school system of my acquaintance.
So how do you apply your ideals to make them work at the practical level? That’s not a rhetorical or flip question. It’s an enormous challenge.
0
0
-
272
Luna the Lovely (11.5 Potterpoints!)
in December 12th, 2008 @ 09:50268–if there is such a large emotional gap between first and second graders, then why were all the classes at my school split classes? 1/2, 3/4, 4/5, etc? And why were all my friends in a grade above me, if as a first grader I was so emotionally far behind second graders?
269–*applauds* I like your analogy, RtH!
0
0
-
273
Zallie
in December 12th, 2008 @ 10:41.272 (Luna) – At my grade school, the levels were preschool-kindergarten, 1-3, 4-6, 7/8, so similar to yours. The reason for this break-up is that the older children can help the younger ones and it allows more individualization in the curriculum. While you were in that class, you didn’t do all of the same work two years in a row, did you? You probably had separate math levels or reading classes etc. There are numerous benefits to having more than one grade level in a class. If a first grader is very good at math, he/she could work in the second grade math group, but stay in the first grade reading group. That eliminates the ‘need’ for a student to be pushed ahead, because they are already getting the individualized education that every child should have.
Being in the same classroom is not the same as being in the same grade. When I was 9, there were 6 year olds in my classroom, but I felt/acted more maturely than they did. Maybe we all wrote essays about mammals, but my work was held to a higher standard than theirs.
Your argument of having friends of different ages doesn’t hold water. As a young adult, I have friends who are middle aged, but that doesn’t mean we are on an equivalent level, maturity-wise. I also have friends who are several years younger than me. Having the same amount of maturity isn’t a prerequisite for friendship.
.269 (Hawk)
sorry, but that hardly pertains to me.
This is precisely the attitude that bothers me so much with regards to children being moved ahead a grade: the notion that they are so much more intelligent or mature than other children their age. You are not an objective observer, so I don’t think you are qualified to judge your own emotional maturity or intelligence, for that matter. Just because you believe you are emotionally mature or exceptionally clever does not make it so.“If you think we are all precisely identical organisms that reproduce by mitosis and proceed at precisely the same rate in precisely the same areas of study, then I would strongly urge you to rethink your viewpoint, because this notion is a rather strange one that I feel is rather flawed.”
Don’t put words in my mouth. I said nothing of the sort. Clearly, all children mature at different rates in different areas. I work with children on a regular basis, so I am fully aware of this statement. I am only objecting to the need to push children ahead in school. It is extremely rare to find a child who is so precocious in all aspects (academically and socially) that pushing him/her ahead would be beneficial. Usually, it just leads to social tension and jealousy on the part of other students. I just don’t see the benefits of pushing children ahead. The emotional maturity gap will eventually catch up with them: if you push a 6 year old ahead, how will he/she feel when all of his/her friends are 12/13 and going through puberty while en is 11 and unable to relate? Even if a child could technically be working at a higher academic level, there surely things in their true grade level that they don’t know yet.
How would you feel if every first grader was suddenly forced into third grade? In your model, everyone would still be at precisely the same level of “emotional immaturity,†but the students who were mentally capable of the work would finally be able to do something that would challenge and interest them and prevent their minds from denaturing.
I am not sure how this relates to your argument, or mine for that matter. Out of that class pushed ahead, only a few will be able to work at that level, so the experience will negatively affect the others. You think that more challenging work will keep en’s mind from denaturing. Well, that would be the case, but en could also face a difficult year socially, full of teasing and bullying, and perhaps be very overwhelmed by schoolwork and find out that en never learned about multiplying fractions because en skipped that grade so en will have to do a lot of work to catch up!
Childhood is already becoming shorter and shorter, as seen with the increased sexualization present in children’s toys, so I think that more emphasis should be placed on being a child (playing outside with friends, drawing pictures, playing dress-up) than doing algebra, just because en is “capable.”
How do you propose evaluating students’ readiness to be pushed ahead in school? Who decides if the child is smart enough? The parents (all parents want their children to be exceptional, so this seems a bit biased to me)? Their teachers? Guidance counselors?
Either way, a different individual results, and no one individual is better than another.
If that is true, why do some students get pushed ahead, while others have to stay behind with the ‘ungifted’ students?To be honest, I am not sure what you are arguing. I don’t need a biology lecture and we both agree that children mature differently. Why, exactly, is pushing children ahead such a good idea for them socially and academically?
0
0
-
274
Luna the Lovely (11.5 Potterpoints!)
in December 12th, 2008 @ 11:46273–well, the way I remember it, the first and second graders were doing all the same work. Admittedly, this was years’n’years ago, so my memory may be a bit fuzzy. And perhaps I could’ve been in the second grade math as a first grader, but this would have hardly been much of an improvement over first grade math. When my parents pulled me out of public school when I was in second grade (and being “allowed” to take math with the third graders), I pretested into 5th grade math, and took that (as a homeschooler) without any difficulty, but that never would have been allowed in public school, no matter how apt I could have proved myself with their ridiculous “gifted” children tests, and then normal pretests. Third grade math was the highest they would let me take, two years behind what I was easily capable of.
So, this in no way “eliminates the ‘need’ for a student to be pusehd ahead, because they are already getting the individualized education that every child should have.” If “allowing” me to do math a year above my grade, but two years behind what I was capable of was allowing me to get an individualized education…..well, that’s a prime example of exactly what is wrong with todays’ public schools.
And it’s not just in math, although that was certainly the subject I was most advanced in, but I could easily have excelled and done much harder course work in all subjects. I’m not trying to brag, merely stating a fact. In highschool, many of the courses I took were college level, and in middle school many were highschool level, and I never ahd any difficulty with them (many were laughably easy). In my entire life of being “pusehd ahead” as you refer to it, I have not been emotionally stunted, nor have I been forced to do to hard of work.
Also, as I’ve said, i don’t think students should be “pushed” ahead either, but that’s not what I’m talking about. Pushign a student ahead is forcing them to do work above what is a decently challenging elvel for them. I’m talking about allowing students to do work above their grade level, work that they are easily capable of. This is not pushing them ahead, merely allowing them work at a level that is as challenging to them as second grade work is to the average second grader.
The emotional maturity gap will eventually catch up with them: if you push a 6 year old ahead, how will he/she feel when all of his/her friends are 12/13 and going through puberty while en is 11 and unable to relate?
I’m sorry, but this is ridiculous. An eleven year old is not so vastly emotionally immature compared to 12/13 yr olds that they will feel left out and unable to relate. Not to mention, plenty of people go through puberty, start menstruation at 11 or younger. I knew a girl once who started her period when she was nine, and I personally started mine at 11. Not to mention, all of my good friends have been at least one year older then me, but more often two, and I have never ahd any trouble relating to them on any level.
I think that more emphasis should be placed on being a child (playing outside with friends, drawing pictures, playing dress-up) than doing algebra, just because en is “capable.â€
Yes, but if en is capable of doing algebra, but is being forced to do fifth grade math (because that is the grade level en is techincally in), then en is going to be bored out of en’s mind, doing very simple work en could do in en’s sleep. Likely, she (sorry, neutral pronouns are hard for me to keep track of) would be so bored, that she would stop concentrating, become distruptive, and even decide that school was such a joke, that she wasn’t even going to bother. Then, despite the fact that she is more than capable fo the work, her grades will slide, she will be thought of as a disruptive delinquent, when if she had merely been allowed to do the work she was capable of, she would have been a model student, not disruptive, because she would have been doing work that was actually challenging for her.
My sister came close to this in 4th grade, when they were basically repeating her third greade curriculum at a very basic, stupid, uninvolved level 9where the only thing the teacher wanted to do was plays). My sister wanted nothign more than to do course workt hat challenged her, she was at school to learn not repeat the previous years school, especially when in fourth grade, the teacher was placing no emphasis on academics, just plyas. There were many occasions when she would have liked nothing more than to disrupt the class, and was so bored that when they did do academics, she felt the need to show off her knowledge.
She was just reminsicing recently over a time when the teacher asked “what would you all like to do today?” and she responded that she would like to learn something, because she came to school to learn, not do plays.
How do you propose evaluating students’ readiness to be pushed ahead in school? Who decides if the child is smart enough? Well, you could start with tests, allowing the students to pretest into the material that is best suited for them, even if this means alloiwng a second grader to do the fifth grade math she is easily capable of
Why, exactly, is pushing children ahead such a good idea for them socially and academically?
As I’ve said pushing them ahead is not, but allowing them to work at the level of which they’re capable of is undeniably a good idea for them academically. It allows them to actually learn, to be challenged in the same way the average second grader is challenged with second grade work. To not allow them to excel is basically the equivalent of forcing an average fifth grader (olr whatever level of work the “gifted” student is capable of) to do second grade work (or whatever grade the student is in age wise). It’s pointless, and does not create a good learning enviroment for the student.
0
0
-
275
Luna the Lovely (11.5 Potterpoints!)
in December 12th, 2008 @ 11:52oh, and let me add…..my sister took AP calculus (AB) as a highschool freshman ( got an A, and a 3 on the AP test) and AP calculus (BC) as a sophmore. Are you trying to tell me she’s not smart? That she should ahve been kept at grade level, and thus been doing……geometry*, I belive, as a highschool freshman? I think not.
*6th grade-6th grade math
7th grade–pre algebra
8th grade–algebra 1
9th grade–geometry [that is, I believe, what typically is taken after algebra 1–it’s been so long for me, I really don’t remember]
0
0
-
276
Rebecca Lasley (Administrator)
in December 12th, 2008 @ 12:08(274) So how would you propose schools solve this problem in practical terms?
I might add, the issues under discussion are not limited to “today’s” schools. My parents faced these exact same questions when my brothers and I were growing up. In fact, similar discussions long predate the creation of public schools.
0
0
-
277
Luna the Lovely (11.5 Potterpoints!)
in December 12th, 2008 @ 12:22276–I’m not sure. However, I do think it would help if schools were more open to the idea of students skipping grades, or at least allowing them to do harder work in specific courses that they might be unusually advanced in. Yes, some students are occasionally allowed to skip grades, but rarely more than one (which in my sister and mine’s case, i don’t really think would have been sufficient for us to feel challenged in our course work), and from what I’ve heard, it sounds like they usually only do this under great amounts of coercion from the parents of the student in question.
And the gifted programs taht some schools have are really more of a joke than anything else. The elementary school I went to (before being homeschooled) had a gifted program, which both my sister and I were in. However, as you can probably tell for yourself from some of the things I previously mentioned, it really did not function very well (my sister’s fourth grade class, for instance), and it was the best of the schools around. My parents had to jump through a lot of hoops and talk to/argue with/write letters to so many people for us to even be allowed to go to that school in the first place (it wasn’t in our school district, it was an hours drive from where we live, in a completely different “city”). My parents were determined we go there, as it was the only school that even came close to having a decent program for so-called “gifted” students. Of course, they soonf ound out it wasn’t all it was cracked up to be, and we were ultimately homeschooled ( which can have its drawbacks as well, depending on the parents and the student).
but, honestly, I’m not really sure what the best thing to do would be, but I do know that the current system really isn’t working.
0
0
-
278
I-Man
in December 12th, 2008 @ 13:11Let me change my statement: We’re not bone-headed. We ARE heading waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in the wrong direction.
0
0
-
279
Rebecca Lasley (Administrator)
in December 12th, 2008 @ 13:37(278) What precisely do you mean by “the wrong direction”?
Is the incident you cited typical of day-to-day school conduct? Did the boy have a history of this kind of behavior? Did the girl?
0
0
-
280
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫
in December 12th, 2008 @ 13:52278- Agreed.
As for my opinion of schooling, children should be able to learn at their own pace, and in whichever way they and their parents deem is necessary for the best learning structure to benefit the rest of their life, and career as students and young adults. It is an incorrect gesture to push children ahead or behind in grades. This could severely upset their mental and learning abilities rather than assist them. And who can decide whether a child is smart enough? I imagine that the answer to this is very clear. There is such thing as a school placement test, I having taken this and been able to skip a lower grade in elementary school. And there is also the matter of the child. I think that all of us are perfectly capable of outlining whether we have the mental capacity to move up a grade, however, I don’t think that they should be able to decide whether they can move down a grade. Unless they have a mental condition, nobody should be permitted to scoot down a level lower than their age group defines, because through this would come slackers who don’t want to learn. However, it is completely unethical to hold a capable person back a grade if they feel that they can move ahead to the next grade and can pass a placement test again. Even if they fail a class, it’s not to say that they shouldn’t be given another chance. And if they don’t want to take that chance? Fine, let them slack, let them turn to mash and not go anywhere. Every child should learn at their own pace, and if the bad apples want to rot behind, then let them do so, but the children who can excel at amazing rates and make it to the top, then they should do the same. It’s as simple as that. No, we are certainly not all the same, but that doesn’t mean that we aren’t build on God’s same base. We are all human, we are all growing, and we should all be able to excel at our own rate.
0
0
-
281
Vendaval
in December 12th, 2008 @ 15:29267 (Luna) –
uhm, yes. that is pretty much exactly what the schools were thinking.
…oh your second grader (and fourth grader) are capable of doing 3rd/4th (5th/6th) grade work, well that’s too bad, screw them, we’re going to make her do the grade-level work that she has clearly demonstrated she is more than capable of mastering, because we couldn’t possibly allow them to do harder work that would actually challenge them.
I had no idea school boards were such evil organizations.I think my parents know what they’re talking about…
As their daughter, you are biased.…and talked and argued with the school board and all the peoples that be enough that they know exactly what the school’s reasoning was, and realizing that the school/school board/whomever would never see reason…
So what was the school board’s reasoning? They must have had some reason, even if you do not find it logical or appealing.274-
The emotional maturity gap will eventually catch up with them: if you push a 6 year old ahead, how will he/she feel when all of his/her friends are 12/13 and going through puberty while en is 11 and unable to relate?I’m sorry, but this is ridiculous. An eleven year old is not so vastly emotionally immature compared to 12/13 yr olds that they will feel left out and unable to relate. Not to mention, plenty of people go through puberty, start menstruation at 11 or younger. I knew a girl once who started her period when she was nine, and I personally started mine at 11. Not to mention, all of my good friends have been at least one year older then me, but more often two, and I have never ahd any trouble relating to them on any level.
This is your own personal experience. How do you think the girl who had her period at 9 felt? She couldn’t relate to her friends of similar age. a year’s difference may not be so noticeable, but two, three years are amazing in their transformitive power at the right age.
0
0
-
282
Beavo
in December 12th, 2008 @ 17:37Re: Skipping to higher grades- I wouldn’t be ready to do this, personally. But I think there are kids who are intellegent and mature enough to skip their grade, especially if the material is a lot less challenging and they could tackle bigger work. As for who decides that, I guess the kid should have the most say. It is their life, after all. The parents would have some say (obviously, as the child is their responsibility) but couldn’t push the child to go farther than they could handle. If both the parents and child could prove that the child is ready to move up a grade (or two, or three), then I think they should be able to. There is a big emotional gap between first and third grade, or first and fourth. And it dosn’t just have to do with puberty. Who looks down on you and calls you “little kid”, who tries to beat you up, who will be your friends. I don’t think I could handle moving into freshmen year right now. Although I have lots of friends over at the high school (from school plays, and heck, I’m dating Clarissa, who’s a ninth grader) and even if I could handle the work (which I couldn’t), there would still be social issues. I wouldn’t feel comfortable. But that dosn’t mean someone else wouldn’t, or would even care.
Re: School Curriculum- Yeah, most of it is really weird. I’ve found myself correcting History test multiple choice questions, much to the annoyance of teachers. You have no idea how mad I made my fourth grade teacher by finding out that King George III didn’t really sign a document that I can’t remember, it was actually some governer. Naturally, I failed the test, for not knowing the “correct” answer.
Re: Gifted and Talented- My school has one, and it’s pretty good, in my opinion. I’m sure others are pretty stupid, but the class here is great.
0
0
-
283
Zallie
in December 13th, 2008 @ 00:10.274 (Luna) – I have not been emotionally stunted Again, you’re not an objective observer and you are also not an adult, so I don’t think you can judge that quite yet!
Re: your argument about en being allowed to do algebra if he/she is ready.
I’m all for that. If a student is exceptionally good at math, then he/she should be allowed to work at a high level. However, that’s not how ‘regular’ public schools work. I went to a Montessori grade school, where students learn very much at their own pace, but my public-school friends didn’t have that experience. In their schools, they have to stick with one grade level in all subjects which is, in my opinion, ridiculous, but there you have it. In that situation, I oppose children being pushed ahead of their grade level. There are two options: send a possibly emotionally immature child ahead to do advanced coursework in many areas (some of which en is stronger in than others) or keep the child in their true grade, where they may already know some of the subjects but can still learn more. I just don’t see the rush. Why would you push children ahead, make their childhoods even shorter? In the end, we all end up working 40 hour weeks. Why rush to get there?
oh, and let me add…..my sister took AP calculus (AB) as a highschool freshman ( got an A, and a 3 on the AP test) and AP calculus (BC) as a sophmore. Are you trying to tell me she’s not smart?
I would tell you that she might have been able to receive a 5 on the AP test if she had an extra year to learn calculus.
I’m sorry, but this is ridiculous. An eleven year old is not so vastly emotionally immature compared to 12/13 yr olds that they will feel left out and unable to relate. Not to mention, plenty of people go through puberty, start menstruation at 11 or younger. I knew a girl once who started her period when she was nine, and I personally started mine at 11. Not to mention, all of my good friends have been at least one year older then me, but more often two, and I have never ahd any trouble relating to them on any level.
Children are already so different developmentally. Why make the stratification larger than it needs to be?
As I said above, a similar level of emotional maturity is not a prerequisite for friendship. As a young woman, I have friends who are both middle aged and much younger than myself. I would not say we all have the same level of maturity, but I don’t think that has affected our friendship. You may have thought of these people as your ‘equals’ but who knows how they thought of you…
0
0
-
284
Luna the Lovely (11.5 Potterpoints!)
in December 13th, 2008 @ 00:28283–I’m 18, so even if I am not truly an adult, I am very, very close. I think I can tell if I am emotionally stunted, and I can assure you that I am not whether you think I am any judge or not.
0
0
-
285
YodaShmoda
in December 13th, 2008 @ 13:25I’m not sure who in particular I’m responding to but here’s my two cents.
I’ve never been an amazing student, I have average grades, blah blah. There is only one thing (academicaly) that I’m good at and that would be Vocab. I cannot write essays well, and I have a lot of trouble with grammer. So I can’t be moved up into the Honors English class. Yet, during Vocab I don’t even pay attention becuase I know the words. I understand there’s not much a teacher can do about that. Mrs. S just pushes me harder and knows that it would be the same if I had the Honors book so we just ignore it. And yet in some way I wish I could be onto the harder book just so that I could become a little better.
My second school related thingy. I think some of you were talking about a gifted class. We have gifted classes. I think they work well- I’ve never been in one. We also have after school academic clubs that cater to specific problems (there’s a science club that concentrates oon renable resources it’s really cool) I do belong to a group called QuEST though. In QuEst we do things not specificaly academic related but more problem solving, creativity sort of stuff. We get graded for it and all that stuff. We do projects and work on crazy stuff (once we made that goo that Muse did and article on) and experiment with things. It’s a place where kids like me (smart but not smart) can do thing’s they’re good at.
I was lucky when it came to QuEST. I had my parents, a guidance counselor, and my old OM coach to thank for helping me get in there. Normally you take a test in 3rd grade and they decide if you’re good for the job. I wouldn’t haven’t gotten in if I didn’t have people helping me. I have a friend D who got in becuae I had to bring him to one of the QuEST meetings. But that’s the thing. People can’t be decided if they fit into QuEST just by the way they take a test, the whole point of QuEST is to help those who aren’t an acedemic type of person have somthing that they can do the thigns their good at in.
My best friend N is in the Standard Honors Math class. He’s really smart. He went to ask our team leader if he could get into the Honors Honors Math class. She said no. He argued his case and instead of getting what he wanted he got an inside suspension. I’m really trying hard to see the right in this. It’s not working. N never raised his voice, or did anything out of line, he argued his case because he knew he was right.
My sister is amazing at math. Except she had a really big problem with multiplication. She worked the entire summer on learning her multiplication tables and got still got stuck in the standard class even though she worked hard to fix her problems.
0
0
-
286
bookgirl_me
in December 13th, 2008 @ 14:09285) I think skipping a grade is okay. The gifted plan in A. is following; Officially: Yes, of course we’ll work on special programs for gifted kids. Practically: Are you kidding ? We allowed computers but thats it.
My younger sister skipped a grade, and she never had any maturity problems. Now it’s my turn to do something. Dialog that started it all: (read the grades part at the bottom first)
Me: Hi mom, I’m back from school ! Oh b.t.w, I have cramps so I didn’t study for the big math test.
Mom: What !
Me: (two weeks later:) I got the second-best grade on the test even though I watched the first season of “pushing daisies” instead of studying”.
Mom: So how is math anyway ?
Me: Boring. We’re doing stuff I did ages ago.
Mom: And your other subjects ?
Me: Also boring.
Mom: So you sit in class all day and pick your nose ?
Me: Not really. I do my math homework in music and my latin homework in latin.
Mom: What !
Me: Come on ! I’ve been getting straight 1 in latin; that the worst grade she can give me is 2. I got away with reading Eragon under my desk for the whole first semester in geography !
Mom: What did you have in Geography ?
Me: 3 on the test, 2 was my final grade.
Mom: *try’s get the school to figure out a gifted program for me*Thats as far as I’ve gotten. The grades were translated from the Austrian system, where they have:
Pass grades:
1= Very good
2= Good
3= Okay
4= Good enough
———————–
5= Not good enough (=you flunk)What are the american grades like ????
0
0
-
287
YodaShmoda
in December 13th, 2008 @ 14:30286) Wow. That was funny. My mom says the same thing about me picking my nose in class too. I tell her uh… gross. But anyways the grades depend on what you’re doing and such and so.
For example in the CMTs (our standerdized test it stands for Conecticut Mastery Tests) they give you like one through sixes in the essay part and then 0 through i think 500 on all the other tests. And SAT’s are really weird but I have no idea how they work. (hello only 8th grade here) and in elementary school they would grade us with a i through three for just about everything eather hat of i think it was M, S, and somthing else. M satnds for mastery and the others I can’t remember. And in middle school (or my middle school) they only do A,B,C, D, F which is a widly known and laughed at things A is the best F is the worst. But they don;t give +’s and -‘s but they will next year. Serriously, we need a better system.
0
0
-
288
Luna the Lovely (11.5 Potterpoints!)
in December 13th, 2008 @ 14:39286–reading the descriptions of what the Austrian grades are……general US equivalent:
1=A
2=B
3=C
4=D
5=FBasically (and I realize this varies from school to school, and that this is generalized):
A=90-100%
B=80-90%
C=70-80%
D=60-70%
F=59 and belowSo, a C is considered an “average” grade, a B slightly above average, and As are classified as “above average”. or something along those lines.
0
0
-
289
Zallie
in December 13th, 2008 @ 15:07.284 – Well if you’re 18 and in your first year of college, you haven’t really skipped a grade at all and therefore no one on this thread has claimed that you would be emotionally immature.
0
0
-
290
Luna the Lovely (11.5 Potterpoints!)
in December 13th, 2008 @ 15:53289–I was homeschooled, so thus not in any sort of classroom environment, except me my mom and my older sister. So, I ahve not skipped a grade per se, but all of the school I was doing in, say, “third” grade, was usually anywhere from 4th to 6th grade material. So, in a sense, I was “pusehd” ahead academically, doing higher level coursework than my age (and therefore technical grade level) said i should be doing.
0
0
-
291
Beavo
in December 13th, 2008 @ 16:19My Grade Scale, Which Sucks
A+ 98-100
A 93-97
B+ 90-92
B 85-89
C+ 82-84
C 77-81
D+ 74-76
D 70-73
F 69 and belowThey were going to omit the plusses, and make the grade scale like 90-100 is an A, 80-89 is a B, but they never did.
0
0
-
292
Luna the Lovely (11.5 Potterpoints!)
in December 13th, 2008 @ 17:15291–Yeah, about half of my courses in highschool had the grading scale I posted in 288, the other half had one about like yours…….
0
0
-
293
YodaShmoda
in December 13th, 2008 @ 18:34According to my choir teacher the gading scale has been really enflated. (sp?) according to him C’s should be what everyone gets becuase technicaly a C is average. But he says he can’t do that becuase then parents that don’t understand the enfltion would get angery at him. I don’t know though, was he right?
0
0
-
294
Zallie
in December 14th, 2008 @ 11:09.290 – I would still say that you haven’t skipped a grade at all. The problems I have with skipping grades are mostly social and you don’t seem to have had any social interactions relating to school, so I wouldn’t count them as the same thing. You ended up at the same place as everyone else has, so you haven’t really gotten anywhere special with your ‘advanced’ academics.
No offense, just sayin’,
.293 – Yes, he’s right. There is a lot of grade inflation, mostly because how competitive college admissions have become. A few Cs (or even some Bs) can really ruin your chances of getting accepted to high-ranked universities and colleges.
0
0
-
295
YodaShmoda
in December 14th, 2008 @ 12:13294) so doesn’t that mean people getting into colleges could have really average grades but becuase of the inflation they are getting in? Is that why its so hard to get into good colleges becasue there are a lot of average people getting what should be above average grades?
0
0
-
296
I-Man
in December 14th, 2008 @ 13:06279 – I don’t think so. See- forget the maturity and the age levels and the fact that the girl didn’t know the boy and everything. What I’m saying is that they shouldn’t have given the boy a worse penalty when the girl did something much worse.
0
0
-
297
Zallie
in December 14th, 2008 @ 13:09.295 – Not necessarily. It depends on the highschool etc, but there are also a lot more people competing for the same number of spots. An undergrad degree is the norm these days, whereas 50 years ago, a lot of people never went to college at all. Grade inflation is a part of it, I think, but the sheer volume of degree-seeking students makes up most of it.
0
0
-
298
Rebecca Lasley (Administrator)
in December 14th, 2008 @ 13:16(297) “Grade inflation” seems to be one of those things that every generation of educators complains about in some form or another. Grades have been inflating so much for so long, no one should even have to take classes by now to get a 4.0.
0
0
-
299
YodaShmoda
in December 14th, 2008 @ 13:19I have something to add from my long list of things up above:
My other best friend is in the Honors English class. And during SSR (sustained silent reading) people in her Honors class don’t even read! If you get into Honors English you should read. I think it only proves that people aren’t perfect for everything. Like I can do Vocab, and can’t write essays. And I understand geometry but not algebra. I knew a kid who only understands the verbs in Spanish class but can’t understand times. To some extent people can be really smart but others parts not understand at all. You can’t say someones good at one thing and move them up because we all struggle in something.
0
0
-
300
Zallie
in December 14th, 2008 @ 13:20.298 – Haha, so true. A lot of people have GPAs of over 4.0 by now. Our valedictorian’s GPA was 5.35 or something like that. Ridiculous!
0
0
-
301
Luna the Lovely (11.5 Potterpoints!)
in December 14th, 2008 @ 13:54300–a GPA of over 5? Your school must use a different scale for the GPA. What I’m familiar with is a 4.0 scale, where it is impossible to have better than a 4.0. (A 4.0 meaning you got only As). When I finished highschool, I had a 3.98, just short of a “perfect” GPA courtesy of two Bs (ancient egyptian civilization (college level) and college trig)……Only Bs I’ve ever gotten, I think.
0
0
-
302
I-Man
in December 14th, 2008 @ 13:57299 – I actually have the same problem. I can ace my vocab quizzes but I write cruddy essays. The only reason I get good grades on my essays is because of my mom.
0
0
-
303
Zallie
in December 14th, 2008 @ 14:38.301 – Honors courses and college level/APs are weighted a bit differently. We still reported our non weighted GPA (so, out of 4), but because of the difficulty of courses we took, there was also a weighted version. I think my highschool was pretty good about grade inflation. Students didn’t expect As, which I think is common in a lot of other schools.
0
0
-
304
Ã߀ƒ
in December 29th, 2008 @ 17:30So, what do y’all think of the current violence between Israel and the Hamas group in Gaza?
0
0
-
305
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫
in December 31st, 2008 @ 13:21*is writing a persuasive speech* Does anyone know of a good argument against organic foods, so that I can build up my counter attack for them?
0
0
-
306
Robert Coontz (Administrator)
in December 31st, 2008 @ 13:36What are you trying to persuade your listeners to do? Ban organic foods, or just not eat them?
0
0
-
307
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫
in December 31st, 2008 @ 13:44Oh, oops. I think I worded that wrong. I’m making an argument for organic foods, but I feel if I had someone giving me a counter-attack, I would better be able to build up my own argument. Just so I know what I should be boning up on.
0
0
-
308
Robert Coontz (Administrator)
in December 31st, 2008 @ 13:59Well, people might point out that organic foods are expensive and aren’t necessarily better for you than ordinary food, and that there’s no clear, generally agreed-on definition of the word “organic.”
0
0
-
309
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫
in December 31st, 2008 @ 14:03That is interesting. I’m required to use a definition of my man topic term in my first body paragraph, and I used from Webster’s online dictionary, that the definition of organic is “raised or conducted without the use of drugs, hormones, or synthetic chemicals”, these chemicals being pesticides and insecticides.
0
0
-
310
Robert Coontz (Administrator)
in December 31st, 2008 @ 14:18The dictionary definition is fine, but how do you know that food labeled “organic” really is organic by any definition? Wikipedia (en . wikipedia . org/wiki/National_Organic_Program) makes some interesting points — such as that the National Organic Program, which certifies organic food in the United States, has a staff of just 12 people, and that half of the organic-food producers in the United States have been caught cheating. It also notes (en. wikipedia. org/wiki/Organic_food) that critics of organic farming say that organic farms need bigger fields than conventional farms do to feed the same number of people. If so, they could be worse for the ecosystems that the farms displace.
I’m not making these arguments myself — but if your opponents have done their research, these are objections that you’re likely to hear.
0
0
-
311
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫
in December 31st, 2008 @ 14:42That’s a good one. I’ll have to make some sort of argument to counter statements to thatr effect. Thanks for the help, great GAPA!
0
0
-
312
Ã߀ƒ
in January 4th, 2009 @ 16:56So, Cliff Eagle thinks the IDF should be punished for it’s war crimes against Gaza.
Well, if the U.S. were being rocketed every day by Cuba, do you think it would be a war crime to use all of our military strength to defend ourselves? “Disproportionate use of force”, indeed!
Isn’t it a war crime to hide in civilian areas where children and women can be put at risk?
And the IDF is only trying to attack military targets, while the Hamas have been firing rockets towards civilians!
0
0
-
313
Zallie
in January 4th, 2009 @ 17:20.I’m really unsure where I stand in the Gaza/Israel conflict. There’s a lot of violence from both sides and I honestly don’t feel qualified to judge the situation one way or another. I don’t believe Israel should have launched this new offensive, but on the other hand, I can’t really say it wasn’t provoked, because Hamas isn’t exactly fighting for a peace treaty.
0
0
-
314
The Bookworm & Lurline (410 piepoints and three B-Day Points and 42 KAG Points! And 5 Wung Points!)
in January 4th, 2009 @ 17:40299-Hmm? How can en not understand times but understand verbs? How does that make sense? It’s the same thing, memorization!
Israel/Hamas: Israel should not have invaded. Hamas should not rocket. All of them are making inappropriate actions!
0
0
-
315
Vendaval
in January 4th, 2009 @ 20:49I’m fed up with both sides, but with Israel more so. I’m in no way an expert on the subject though.
312 (IBCF)- That’s not close enough. Your analogy would be truer if all of the US originally belonged to the Cubans.
0
0
-
316
Ã߀ƒ
in January 4th, 2009 @ 20:59314- Why shouldn’t Israel invade?
0
0
-
317
Ã߀ƒ
in January 4th, 2009 @ 22:19315- So, wait–you’re saying that the jews are lying about Israel being their homeland?
0
0
-
318
Zallie
in January 4th, 2009 @ 22:41.317 – I really don’t think that’s what Vendaval is saying, considering he didn’t mention any of what you just said in his post…
0
0
-
319
Ã߀ƒ
in January 5th, 2009 @ 00:42318-
1. By saying “your analogy would be truer if all of the US originally belonged to the Cubans,” he implies that he believes Israel orignally belonged to the Palestinians.
2. If that is the case, it means Israel could not have originally belonged to the Jews.
3. And that means there was never a Jewish kingdom in Israel, and the Jews were making up the whole thing all along.And I’m pretty sure he doesn’t believe that. I just want Vendaval to realize the implications of his statement.
0
0
-
320
Vendaval
in January 5th, 2009 @ 05:38I’m not accusing anyone of lying, I think that the Jews did once live in what is now Israel. But they were an Arab state then (as opposed to being European), and to top it off, we really can’t prove anything. Your analogy was flawed in many ways, I made it truer.
I believe that the British Mandate, League of Nation, UN, etc. were imperialistic and ill-conceived.
Religion is not the same as nationality, how would you feel if I said “Oh, way back when, God said I could have your house. You can live in the basement, don’t worry.”?
Would it be ok if a Native American said the same? They’ve got more right than me for sure, if ancestry is a good way to measure worth or entitlement.
I think that giving away vast tract of land based on a purely religious history is ridiculous, but that creating a nation for Jews to preserve their safety is different and acceptable.
0
0
-
321
Cliff Eagle
in January 5th, 2009 @ 07:13320- I agree 100%. The Palestinians are going through what the native americans have gone through for centuries now.
0
0
-
322
Vendaval
in January 5th, 2009 @ 14:20I should clear something up- I disagree with the actions of the League of Nations and U.N. that created Israel; otherwise I feel that both organizations are/were very important and noble, if not always as efficient as some people would like.
0
0
-
323
The Bookworm & Lurline (410 piepoints and three B-Day Points and 42 KAG Points! And 5 Wung Points!)
in January 5th, 2009 @ 15:18316-I feel that Israel shouldn’t invade and try to take land that doesn’t belong to them. To be honest, I don’t think Israel should ever have been founded. People already lived there, and Israel had no claim to the land. If it had truly been uninhabited, I’d be fine. However, others already had claim to that land. People can’t just come decide to live there! Also, the country is not a Theocracy! While it is predominantly Jewish, the government is secular. Also, I never consider invasion an okay option.
0
0
-
324
YodaShmoda
in January 5th, 2009 @ 16:13320- I think this is a huge issue. Technicaly land never really belongs to anyone but the Earth. We do have our “SPots” on this planet but when we are gone the planet is still here. Both the Palistinaians and the Israilies belive it is their land but really the land can’t ever be theirs. They simply are borrowing it.
But the main arguments aren’t that so: I think both people have every right to live there. They simply don’t wish to share it. I think if the Israilies let up on their security of the Palistinans and allowed their people to run for office and have control too (although they very well could I just didn’t know) and the Palistinans AND the Israilies decided to put aside their differences too, the whole place would be a bit better off. But the two just keep picking at eachother and pressing eachother’s buttons and becuase of that they aren’t geting any where.
0
0
-
325
Cliff Eagle
in January 5th, 2009 @ 16:40IMHO, the Israeli army is just as bad as Al Qaida, the IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah, Euskadi Ta Askatasuna and any terrorist group out there. Their tactics of dealing with innocent Palestinian civilians is brutal.
0
0
-
326
The Bookworm & Lurline (410 piepoints and three B-Day Points and 42 KAG Points! And 5 Wung Points!)
in January 5th, 2009 @ 17:01All armies (in my opinion) are bad things.
0
0
-
327
Zallie
in January 5th, 2009 @ 18:03.325 (Cliff) – I don’t agree with a lot of Israel’s tactics, but I have to admit I don’t blame them for having such an aggressive army (I do however blame them for not picking their targets more carefully, but that’s another matter). There are a lot countries/groups who wish Israel harm and carry out offensives against the country.
.326 (Bookworm) – That’s a nice thought, but it’s not very practical for most countries, especially those in areas with a lot of conflict. The US wouldn’t have been founded without an army and Napoleon (or Hitler!) could have conquered a good deal of the world, if other armies hadn’t opposed them.
0
0
-
328
KaiYeves
in January 5th, 2009 @ 18:05Have you guys seen that Twitter thing Israel’s embassy did? Adults using chatspeak is always funny, but when they’re using it to explain military actions, it’s hilarious!
0
0
-
329
public like a frog (34 wung points!)
in January 5th, 2009 @ 18:53They used chatspeak? lol. I feel that israel should maintain a claim to non- presently palestinian lands but loosen control on palestine.
0
0
-
330
YodaShmoda
in January 5th, 2009 @ 19:10326- (bookworm) As much as we’d all love to have that happen the fact is that if one country decides to “set a good example” by getting rid of their army or even weakening it the surounding countries would immediatly take it over.
0
0
-
331
KaiYeves
in January 5th, 2009 @ 19:48329- Yes. “Thk you for participting in our Citizens Conference! we r still making an effort to answer the Qs we missed, plz bear with us.”
twitter . com/israelconsulate ?page =3
0
0
-
332
groundhog22
in January 5th, 2009 @ 21:28Dear lord. They used chatspeak??? That’s just embarrassing. As for my two cents on this topic, Israel attacked Gaza because ever since the pullout, the Palestinians have been shooting rockets over into nearby towns. The shooting of rockets has been going for three years (I think, maybe it’s been longer)
If Mexico started shooting rockets at Texas, the US wouldn’t wait three years to do something, they’d attack immediately. So if it’s been three years of continuous rockets, then I think that attacking is more than justified.
0
0
-
333
Vendaval
in January 6th, 2009 @ 06:02332- But if you look at it from Gaza’s side, they’ve been under siege that whole time. Hamas only came to power because people felt they needed an active military government.
I don’t think any of these analogies (US/Cuba, US/Mexico) are working at all.
330- en. wikipedia. org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces
0
0
-
334
Ã߀ƒ
in January 6th, 2009 @ 14:53323- 1. There is historical evidence that Israel belonged to the Jews thousands of years ago. It isn’t just religious.
2. The Palestinians could have lived with the Jews in peace, but they started the religious riots against them in the 1920s. Most of you probably don’t know about the history of Israel.
3. The “Palestinians” are actually Arabs, and they aren’t native to Israel any more than we are native to America. If you wanted to give the land back to the original owners, send for the Canaanites!
4. They didn’t just “come and decide to live there.” They wanted a nation of their very own, where they wouldn’t be persecuted. Don’t you remember the holocaust? Or the pogroms?325- Give me concrete evidence!
326- Even if their purpose is to protect innocent people?
328- Hardy-har-har.
329- I don’t think the extremists would hate the Jews any less if they loosened their control. That’s the problem.
333- Yes, but the Israelis DON’T look at it from Gaza’s side. Okay, here’s a better analogy: some extremist Native Americans start firing rockets and civilian buildings in America. It isn’t like we’re just going to say “their actions are justified, so we’ll just let them kill innocent people.”
0
0
-
335
Cliff Eagle
in January 6th, 2009 @ 15:27334- Give you concrete evidence that in my humble opinion the Israeli army is a terrorist group? Its an opinion!
0
0
-
336
groundhog22
in January 6th, 2009 @ 17:46333 – They haven’t been under siege, unless you call getting supplied with electricity, gas, water, etc. by the besiegers a siege. Sometimes the shipments of supplies from Israel to Gaza haven’t gone through, because Palestinians have killed the people who are bringing the stuff in!
334 – Thank you, thank you, and thank you.
335 – For once, I agree with you. If that’s your opinion, then you have every right to have it, even if others disagree, and even if there’s no “evidence” to back it up. Thank God, freedom of thought still exists here.
0
0
-
337
Vendaval
in January 7th, 2009 @ 16:07334- (To self: Wait, didn’t I post a reply already? No. Hmm. Well, later, I can’t right now.)
336-
“Gaza conditions ‘at 40-year low’
Gaza’s humanitarian situation is at its worst since Israel occupied the territory in 1967, say UK-based human rights and development groups.
They include Amnesty International, Save the Children, Cafod, Care International and Christian Aid. “
-CNN“Last month, the World Food Program was permitted to bring in only one-third of the food required to meet the minimum nutritional needs of humanitarian cases in Gaza.”
Exports can’t go out from Gaza, the economy is shutting down, Israel closes the Gaza-Egypt border, etc.
-WorldVision U.K.U.N.: Gaza has an unemployment rate of 45%.
0
0
-
338
Zallie
in January 7th, 2009 @ 17:12.334 – IBCF, are you Jewish? I don’t mean that as a pointed remark or anything, I’m just curious.
For everyone else, is religion playing a role in how you view the Israel/Palestinian conflict? Religion is such a heated issue in the Middle East, and it is definitely affecting the situation there, but I’m curious as to if religion is affecting how we view the situation here.
0
0
-
339
YodaShmoda
in January 7th, 2009 @ 17:19338- I don’t have a religon so no. But I do think you subconciously rout a little more for the side that you are most like… in anything.
0
0
-
340
greekgurl the Latin speaking geek freak
in January 7th, 2009 @ 18:14338- I’m a Catholic, althogh not a very devout one but it doesnt affect my desicion… which currently is nonexisten due to a lack of information. Assumptions are frowned upon. The question is, do any of us have enough info? Unless you’ve been there the only way to experience it is through the media…
0
0
-
341
Cliff Eagle
in January 7th, 2009 @ 18:30338- I’m a Jew who sides with the palestinians.
0
0
-
342
groundhog22
in January 7th, 2009 @ 19:23337 – Well, of course Israel is going to close the Gaza-Egypt border! That’s where all the rockets that they’ve been shooting into Israel have been coming through! And I don’t know where all those reports came from, but if they are indeed true, and only one third of the food necessary is getting to the people, then it wouldn’t be the first time that Palestinian leadership has been skimming the supplies that were supposed to go to their people. Arafat took most of the relief money that was supposed to help the refugees and used it to send his wife on trips to Paris.
I have to say, I feel very bad for the Palestinian people. Their leaders push them into the line of fire, force them to stay in places which are known to be targeted by the Israeli military, etc., all to keep the casualty rate up, and make the Israeli army look like monsters. In a way, Cliff Eagle is right. The Israeli army has been forced into the role of terrorist by an enemy power that doesn’t care about its own people. I think that if Hamas was dissolved, and the ordinary Palestinian people were allowed to integrate into Israeli society, then there would be peace. After all, Jews and Muslims lived peacefully, side by side, before one of the Muftis (whose name I can’t remember) started this culture of “hate the Jews” through his weekly speeches. But with Hamas in charge of them, the Palestinian people have no chance of peace or a normal life.
338 – I am Jewish, but I went to an anti-Zionist school for most of my life, so any pro-Israel leanings I have came from somewhere else.
340 – I lived in Israel for all of last year, and I have seen what goes on there.
0
0
-
343
greekgurl the Latin speaking geek freak
in January 7th, 2009 @ 19:52342- I didn’t mean it as an insult, or a comment on ignorance but know that you’ve told me I’m curious. What was your life like there?
0
0
-
344
Cliff Eagle
in January 7th, 2009 @ 20:01OK. Couple problems. First off, groundhog, Israel has not been “forced” into a terrorist route. There are better ways to deal with the Palestinians than shooting rockets into elementary schools and mosques. First, the Israelis should stop being expansionist idiots and cede the West Bank, including the Muslim quarter of Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip back to Hamas. Or, if they don’t want to cede back land, they could pass some form of “affirmative action” that mandates that x% of government seats should be controlled by Hamas. This, of course, might outrage people if they thought Hamas were terrorists, but remember that one of the slogans of the most conservative party in Knesset is “Ein Aravim, Ein Piguim” (for those keeping score at home, it means “No Arabs, No Bombs”.)
Of course, the transition will be difficult, so UN or US troops might need to be deployed, but- It has been proven that muslims and jews can live side by side. Still, it would be better than the current situation where Muslims have no voice in Israeli government.
0
0
-
345
Purple Panda
in January 7th, 2009 @ 20:10The majority of my friends are Jewish, so I have a very pro-Israel view surrounding me. Personally, I’m not really sure how I feel about the whole conflict. I’d really like to learn more about it. I know a lot, and have read several books and articles about it, but I still don’t think I have enough information to really form a solid, educated view.
0
0
-
346
groundhog22
in January 7th, 2009 @ 20:51344 – Um, there are several Arab parties in the Knesset. Most of which are actually anti-Israel. Israel allows Arabs to become citizens–I believe that the star of the Israeli National soccer team is Arab–and to create their own political parties. As for that extremist party, who said that I supported them? (Oh, and by the way, piguim means attacks, not bombs. The word for bombs is p’tzatzot. But that’s a rather minor point.) And you’re right–Israel doesn’t want to cede the West Bank to Hamas, and it’s because they know that if they do, then there will be rockets shooting into Jerusalem within 24 hours. And yes, Israel has kind of been forced into this “terrorist” role. Hamas is using schools, hospitals, and mosques to store weapons, and then they refuse to let anyone leave those places when Israel warns them to flee because they’re about to attack.
343 – It was surprisingly normal. I was half-expecting it to be a war zone when I got there, but in many ways it’s actually safer than the US. I would have never walked home alone before I came there, but I felt perfectly safe walking back to my teeny-tiny apartment at 11 PM while I was there. People are really friendly there, and extremely honest. I once lost my cellphone, my sole connection to everything while I was there, when I was running to catch a bus. By the time I realized it was gone, it had been so long that I thought that it was gone forever. But when I went back to the place where I thought I’d dropped it, one of the guys from the corner grocery saw me looking for it and said that he’d found a phone, and was it mine. He had been holding it for safekeeping in the money box in his store, waiting for someone to come looking for it! On the other hand, everyone has to walk through a metal detector if they want to get into the mall, the bus station, etc. and put their bags through an x-ray machine, because of terrorism threats. There hasn’t been a suicide bombing in years, thank God, but you never know. Also, occasionally the constant terror that was going on in the cities near Gaza leaked out into the rest of the country. Like when a Palestinian gunman went into a school in Jerusalem and started shooting students indiscriminately. I was terrified that my school (I was part of a foreign student program) was going to be next, that this guy would blow right past the security guard and kill us all. So, on the one hand, there’s safe neighborhoods, and nice people, but on the other hand, there’s always this threat lurking around you.
0
0
-
347
In which Vendy doesn't really say much.
in January 7th, 2009 @ 22:08342- Yes, about the Egypt-Gaza border, I know that it’s the obvious thing to do, I didn’t fully explain myself there. But that hasn’t really fixed the problem at all. Now there are tunnel networks so vast you can invest in them, and they’re even harder to regulate than borders. I was initially just trying to say that Gaza is not just in Israel, there are other countries at the door (obviously). If they were different countries, infringement of national sovereignty would be a big deal. Which it was. Never mind, it was a minor point anyway.
345- That is exceptionally mature of you to recognize that. I don’t think anyone will ever see all of the factors involved.
Wasn’t there a UN plan once to dismantle both governments and give complete control to the UN? I think if it could be done, it would work, but only if it started.
Opinions?Ah, remind self: post response to IBCF.
0
0
-
348
Ã߀ƒ
in January 8th, 2009 @ 09:36338- I am not Jewish, but I have studied much about Israel and the history of the Jewish people. Believe me, the more you learn about the continuous suffering of these people, the more you have to sympathize with them.
344- “Expansionist idiots”? Look, the entire Sinai peninsula once belonged to Israel! If it were the other way around, do you think the Palestinians would cede any land?
347- I’m pretty sure that the UN would be unable to control the region. Everyone would just rebel, like they did a century ago.
Look, all the Jewish people really want is a nation of their own. What better place than their traditional homeland in Israel? Besides, we persecuted them out of every other country.
0
0
-
349
greekgurl the Latin speaking geek freak
in January 8th, 2009 @ 11:27344- Not forced but not much better. Poverty breeds terrorism. If a man doesn’t have enoughmoney to feed hs children, sometimes he’ll do anything, no matter the cause. (Yes I just quoted my global teacher…) Personally I think the best thing the UN, or any nation for the matter, to do is to stimulate the economies of Israel and Pakistan. But that’s just me.
347- I hadn’t heard about that, but remember the last time (maybe it wasn’t last, but hey) the UN decided to take over a government? It was right after world war two, the British had control of what is now ISRAEL. isreal is a result of the UN taking control.Not on the topic of Israel, what do you think of Buress? I’l give my own opinion once I have others.
0
0
-
350
Ã߀ƒ
in January 8th, 2009 @ 12:13349- A man doesn’t have enough money to feed his children…so he attacks Jews?
0
0
-
351
greekgurl the Latin speaking geek freak
in January 8th, 2009 @ 12:28350- A poor man doesn’t have enough money to feed his children. A terrorist group offers him a job, as a terrorist and in return they will give him money, etc. Sometimes its this, sometimes they find men who have nothing left, no job no family. These men they convince to become suicide bombers, because at least you can die a “hero”
0
0
-
352
Ã߀ƒ
in January 8th, 2009 @ 13:35351- Yes, but they also often teach their children to become Jew-hating fanatics. And that’s usually more effective.
0
0
-
353
In which Vendy remarks pointedly.
in January 8th, 2009 @ 14:33349-Hopefully we know more now than they did back when creating Israel- I’m sure we would talk about it with all parties involved. I agree that poverty breeds terrorism, if Gaza was a economically successful as Israel, Hamas wouldn’t have been elected.
350- I’m surprised that you don’t understand this. 351 explains it well, it’s a related directly to that 45% unemployment, and Israel’s actions which have killed the economy (whether intentionally or not).
1. There is historical evidence that Israel belonged to the Jews thousands of years ago. It isn’t just religious.
So should we revert all of our borders back to what they were “thousands of years ago”?
2. The Palestinians could have lived with the Jews in peace, but they started the religious riots against them in the 1920s.
Uhm, their land was taken by the British, and then given to the Jews. Of course they protested.
Most of you probably don’t know about the history of Israel.
If we’re talking about it, we should know something. If you’ve got anything to add to our knowledge, go ahead. Otherwise, don’t just insult us.
3. The “Palestinians†are actually Arabs, and they aren’t native to Israel any more than we are native to America. If you wanted to give the land back to the original owners, send for the Canaanites!
So both the Israelis and the Palestinians equally don’t belong? Then they should share the land equally.Yes, but the Israelis DON’T look at it from Gaza’s side.
They should. Just because all of the Israelis don’t doesn’t mean you shouldn’t.
Okay, here’s a better analogy: some extremist Native Americans start firing rockets and civilian buildings in America. It isn’t like we’re just going to say “their actions are justified, so we’ll just let them kill innocent people.â€
No, first we would stop him, and then ask ourselves:
“Why is he doing this?” Is he angry because he is living in poverty because the Americans have taken all of his land? How can we fix the problem? Economic stimulation?
0
0
-
354
Cliff Eagle
in January 8th, 2009 @ 14:39346- Two things, first, the Palestinian soccer star on the Israeli soccer team has almost nothing to do with how Palestinians are treated, and two, the star on the Israeli soccer team is Dudu Aouate, who is a Jew. So there. (well, more the first part than the second).
0
0
-
355
greekgurl the Latin speaking geek freak
in January 8th, 2009 @ 15:14352- Not all do. In pakistan there are schools for Muslim extremists, and they will feed the children. These schools are cheap! It’s one of the only ways to get an education and food for kids!
0
0
-
356
The Bookworm & Lurline (410 piepoints and three B-Day Points and 42 KAG Points! And 5 Wung Points!)
in January 8th, 2009 @ 17:02I recognize that having a Jewish state with no prosecution would be a good thing. I recognize that they have been prosecuted against many, many times. However, that land was not the UN’s to give. The Palestinians were there, even if the Jews were there in the past (However, they were all across Europe and the Middle East in the past!) Also, a Jewish state should truly be that. Not a secular state principally inhabited by Jews, but a Jewish Theocracy! Why don’t we just find an island in the Pacific and give them that!
I am Jewish, and agree with 353.
0
0
-
357
KaiYeves
in January 8th, 2009 @ 17:35Since he’s leaving soon and Musers by nature are nonconformists, let’s make a list of all the things we THANK President Bush for.
Um… Making the Northwestern Hawai’ian Islands a National Marine Sanctuary.
Authorizing the Vision for Space Exploration and directing NASA to return to the Moon.
And, um…
Uh…
Well, that speech he gave after the Columbia accident was pretty nice…
0
0
-
358
Piggy
in January 8th, 2009 @ 18:15What about his help in Africa? AIDS? Malaria? Freeing Afghanistan? Keeping America safe after 9/11? Bush faced, these last 8 years, the most horrible things that have ever happened to the US. Was he perfect in how he handled it all? Of course not. Who is? But, for all we’ve gone through, are we still one, safe, globally-competitive country? Yes.
0
0
-
359
Cat's Meow
in January 8th, 2009 @ 18:28I honestly don’t think the Israelis vs. Palestinians thing is the real problem – it’s Hamas that’s getting in the way. Israel already gave up a bit of land, and could potentially give up more, that would lead to the creation of a Palestinian state. But Hamas took over that land, and used it to fire rockets at Israel. They’re the ones impeding the peace process, because they won’t rest until Israel is destroyed. Not very nice neighbors, are they?
0
0
-
360
public like a frog (34 wung points!)
in January 8th, 2009 @ 18:31357- To some extent the clear skies act, the american initiative act, and the northwestern hawaian islands preserve.
0
0
-
361
Piggy
in January 8th, 2009 @ 18:34359- But Israel keeps breaking cease-fires, and killing innocent people. I’m fine with their motives, but they’re going about it a bit violently. (Obviously.)
0
0
-
362
KaiYeves
in January 8th, 2009 @ 18:41He called Burt Rutan after SpaceShipOne’s flight, that was nice.
0
0
-
363
greekgurl the Latin speaking geek freak
in January 8th, 2009 @ 19:27356- it’s not quite that simple. When Britain was given power over what is now Israel, a nobleman (his name escapes me) wrote a paper about how the Jews should be given their ownland, and while we’re at it, why not the land from their Bible. It became a bit of a fad in Britain (im not insulting any British Musers am i?) and when the Jews heard this they were overjoyed. (This was right after the Holocaust, remember?) However Britain didn’t go through with their plan until some time later when the Jews finally decided to blow up a hotel, proving they were willing to fight for their country. Since then Israel has been targeted and has been violent back. Anybody hear of the Genocide olympics?
358- yes but those horrible things were some of his doing. If only the Commander in Cheif had done a little more researh before he attacked, maybe he would have realised that he should actually be attacking the most oil rich nation in the world- Sudan. Bin Laden? Yeah, he’s from Sudan and his money is from his rich, oil selling family: in Sudan. It seems a bit like Tonkin Gulf, not a lot of evidence but a lot of complaint afterwords.
0
0
-
364
Cliff Eagle
in January 8th, 2009 @ 19:43Here’s the situation to all the worlds problems.
(without spaces)[Cliff suggests the answer is at The Onion. Run a search with “the onion” and “west bank” and you shall find. — Rosanne]
0
0
-
365
groundhog22
in January 8th, 2009 @ 20:25353 – They didn’t riot because the British took their land and gave it to the Jews. The partition plan didn’t come about until after WWII. They were rioting because the British were considering allowing more Jews to immigrate into Palestine. Despite the fact that there was plenty of space to go around. And Israel’s actions haven’t killed the Palestinian economy. When Israel pulled out of Gaza, many of the buildings there were knocked down. However, some of them were left up for the use of the Palestinians, such as the greenhouses that the Jews in Gaza had been using to grow food to sell. This was supposed to give the Palestinians an independent economic base, allow them to have real jobs, etc. However, a couple of days after the pullout, the Palestinians smashed all of the greenhouses. The Palestinians may have a lousy economy, but it’s certainly not Israel’s fault.
354 – That wasn’t my point, my point was that Israel allows Muslims to become citizens.
356 – Well, the Zionist leaders actually almost agreed to take some land in the middle of Africa as a Jewish homeland. But there were Jews in Palestine too, not just Muslims. There have always been Jews in Biblical Israel, ever since the second temple period if not earlier. As for the theocracy, I hate to be all pessimistic, but that’s not going to work. The Jews aren’t united enough for such a thing to be viable. There are major internal divisions within Israeli society, to say nothing of the rest of the Jews in the world. Now there may be people like you and me who would try to at least be civil towards everyone, but unfortunately not everyone’s like that.
361 – Israel’s not the one breaking cease-fires, Hamas is! There have been several official cease-fires over the past three years, but while Israel was sitting there following them, Hamas was still shooting rockets. Israel doesn’t really have a choice about going to war. Hamas will never stop shooting at Israel voluntarily, so the only way to stop them is to hit them hard enough that they won’t be able to shoot, or to take out all of their leaders. Either one leads to a lot of violence.
0
0
-
366
In which Vendy rebutts.
in January 8th, 2009 @ 22:12365- Yes, hungry Palestinian looters smashed the greenhouses to grab anything they could, probably because 60% of Palestinians live in poverty. They’re trying, but you can’t say that they’ve put themselves there out of laziness, it’s very hard to climb out of poverty. Especially when exports are severely limited, and fishermen can’t get out to sea.
Also, it’s not like the Israelis just gave those greenhouses to the Palestinians out of goodwill, they were bought and donated.
0
0
-
367
Ã߀ƒ
in January 8th, 2009 @ 23:04353- 1. I’m not saying they should revert their borders. I’m saying they have roots there, just like the Arabs, so they should have equal rights (and not have to stand for being continuously pelted by rockets).
2. They should complain to the British, then.
3. But the radical Arabs don’t want to share. They want all the Jews out.355- So…Israel (and India, they have a problem with Pakistan as well) needs to give Muslim children food and education?
356- Deport all the Jews in Israel to an island in the Pacific? Make them give up their homeland, the one place they have religious roots in? That would be difficult…
361- If violence isn’t the answer, then what do you suggest? Negotiations? The extremists only want Israel to be pushed into the Mediterranean.
0
0
-
368
greekgurl the Latin speaking geek freak
in January 9th, 2009 @ 16:23366- And considering a large portion of the national revenue came out of Kashmir, which India now has.
355- The UN should be doing something like that. And not specifically Muslim children, although it is a theocracy, just to the poor in the Middle East.
0
0
-
369
Robert Coontz (Administrator)
in January 9th, 2009 @ 16:38(363) Not Sudan, greekgurl: Osama bin Laden is from Saudia Arabia. So were most of the 9/11 hijackers.
0
0
-
370
public like a frog (34 wung points!)
in January 9th, 2009 @ 17:36Also, we can thank george bush for providing material for a very interesting muse article. Apart from that, not much! (imho) 364-lol. What about gaza? 365-but there haven’t always been jews from europe there! About 37% are of ashkenazi descent, and many others from various arabic nations.
0
0
-
371
greekgurl the Latin speaking geek freak!
in January 9th, 2009 @ 18:55369- Ah ha ha, I managed to make a fool of myself yet again by jumbling facts. We learned about Sudan right after Saudi Arabia. * sends a thousand apologies to the wind!*
0
0
-
372
In which Vendaval
in January 9th, 2009 @ 19:02367-
1. I guess it comes down to the definition of nationality then, did the European Jews have a right to return to a land that they left oh so long ago and claim residency? Ideally it wouldn’t matter where they were from of course, but it does seem to matter, so, let’s say Bob is an American citizen. His grandparents came to America from Ireland. If he flees America for whatever reason, should he be granted Irish citizenship?
2. Well, the British left, and the Israelis were still there. If you’re an angry Palestinian man who’s never traveled abroad, are you going to go complain to the British? Will they listen?
3. Do the radical Jews want to share either?Should the Romani people be given their own country? If so, where? Research indicates they originated in India. They’re comparable to the Jews, but their nomadic nature complicates things. Still, it’s comparable.
0
0
-
373
Cat's Meow
in January 9th, 2009 @ 19:38361 – Hamas often hides terrorists and weapon stashes amongst innocent people, knowing that Israel will strike there. I even read something in the newspaper that Israel warns Palestinian people to get out of the area before they fire rockets, risking the element of surprise to do so.
0
0
-
374
In which Vendy questions.
in January 10th, 2009 @ 21:36373- Warns the Palestinians to go where? It’s not like telling them there’s going to be a bombing is going to do anything – innocent people will still be hurt, by mistake or not. The UN opened an investigation into possible war crimes after UN peacekeepers were killed. At a school!
0
0
-
375
The Man For Aeiou
in January 10th, 2009 @ 23:17Everyone should have a homeland! Mine is sweden (I’m USA born and rased, but sweden is my homeland.)
0
0
-
376
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫
in January 11th, 2009 @ 09:35375- I guess mine would be Ireland. Or Italy.
0
0
-
377
Cliff Eagle
in January 11th, 2009 @ 10:04375- My homeland is either the US, Poland or Albania. The US because I’m native american, albania for the sephardic side of my dad’s family and poland for my mom. Although I would feel most at home in america.
0
0
-
378
Piggy
in January 13th, 2009 @ 17:05375- I’m not sure what mine would be. I’m sort of a large mix of countries, including: German, Swedish, Irish, Belgian, Polish, and Austrian.
0
0
-
379
groundhog22
in January 13th, 2009 @ 21:19366 – First of all, no one would have wanted to loot those greenhouses, there wasn’t any food in them, just seedlings and mulch. This would have been very obvious, because greenhouses are made of glass. And second, bought and donated is not how I would describe what happened with the greenhouses. Anyone from Gaza who left before the deadline (there weren’t too many of them though) got some sort of compensation for the loss of their property. So if those few owned the greenhouses, then yes, they were bought and donated. But the vast majority of the Jews in Gaza did not leave before the deadline, because they were trying to reverse the government’s decision. They were never compensated for their property, (and most of them are still living in trailers. I’ve seen it.) which would include the greenhouses. That doesn’t sound like “bought and donated” to me.
374 – Outside the blast area. And the US did a surgical bombing (which is basically what the Israelis are doing now) in Iraq, and no one gave a hoot if people were injured. It’s called a war, and when there’s a war, people are going to get hurt whether either side intended it or not. Israel is doing what it needs to do to protect its citizens, and they are trying to deal with the fact that Hamas is arranging things to maximize civilian casualties, shoving people into the line of fire. As for the UN school, Hamas mounted a rocket launcher on its roof. Using schools, hospitals, and other buildings where large numbers of civilians gather is, most unfortunately, common practice with Hamas. I recently saw a video of a school in Gaza that had a small zoo next to it for the kids. The video started out in the zoo, where there was a detonator underneath one of the zoo’s picnic tables. The video followed the wire from the detonator all the way through the zoo, through a hole in the school’s wall, and into the building, where the bomb was. Hamas had set this up before Israeli soldiers came in and found it. Luckily, the thing never got set off, but if it had, Hamas would have blamed Israel for blowing up a school.
0
0
-
380
Vendaval
in January 16th, 2009 @ 20:57AAaargh! I lost the long post I had typed up. Anyway, here’s the condensed version:
379- Couldn’t one grow food with those items, if not sell them? Looters aren’t picky if there’s quality stuff to be taken, and the looters are in poverty.
Sounds like the Jews lost their property, but they were well warned. I know the greenhouses were bought in a deal negotiated by a former World Bank chairman, and they were then given to the Palestinians. Look it up.How long does one need to live “Outside the blast area”? How does one survive there?
This is not a war in any simple sense, as it is being fought against a shadowy enemy in a crowded urban area. Tactics used by both sides are despicable. The war in Iraq is different, but not much simpler, as there are numerous groups fighting each other, not just two.
The attack on the UN compound was unprovoked, that has been admitted by Israeli officials. They have since stated that they are sorry. They also used illegal chemical shells.
0
0
-
381
shadowfire
in January 17th, 2009 @ 10:14shadowfire’s summary of most causes of war(don’t hate me, please)
1. Be tolerant of other people. But my God is better than your God, so I can kill you!
2. Hey! You have all the oil/resource everyone wants, and you won’t give it up. That’s no fair, so in order to get what I want, I can kill you!
3. You people are too different from us, and we don’t want that. So I can kill you!
Kind of stupid. As I said on the previous thread, there are ways to control the population without killing everyone off.
0
0
-
382
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫
in January 17th, 2009 @ 13:44381-
1. I agree with this in the sense that there is only One God, and He does not believe in killing.
2. There’s this quaint thing called money that people use nowadays to settle these kinds of differences. Maybe a few centuries ago, but not so much today.
3. Sad but true.
0
0
-
383
Eragon ♪
in January 17th, 2009 @ 18:33Why the hell do we even bother with war anyway? (pardon my French)
I mean, sure, we have people like Osama binLaden who hates all of us for some reason. War for no reason at all when we could just have peace. Why does he think that? I’d very much like to read binLaden’s mind, you know? Figure out whats going on in there. What a madman.
This is what I think:“Hmmm, I see lots of dangerous weapons! Why don’t we steal them, hide in a desolate cave, shoot U.S. soldiers by the dozen and wage war against one of the most powerful nations in the world! When we could try to just live in harmony and peace. Mad? No I’m not!”
What the heck?
You may call my sense of things…slightly strong, but that’s pretty much what’s going on. Jeez, we are gonna inherit a pretty messed-up world. But, if you look at it from one angle, we can try to have peace when we grow up and people listen to us for a change.
0
0
-
384
Vendaval
in January 17th, 2009 @ 22:23Osama bin Laden does not act without reason. Instead he does the opposite, acting on his beliefs. He believes that Islam, and strict adherence to Islamic law, will lead to peace. He believes that the United States, most of the rest of the Western world, and the Jews work against his beliefs, and that they must be stopped. Radical religion justifies his actions on Earth because he thinks that in Heaven the tables will be turned, so to say.
Why don’t we steal them
I think he gets a lot of donations, of volunteers and money too.
hide in a desolate cave
The caves built with the help of the CIA back in the 80s (yes?) were actually pretty nice.
When we could try to just live in harmony and peace
He sees the US involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. as anything but peaceful. If you put yourself in his shoes, you’ll see an evil empire invading the good countries built on good values, and attacking your people.Does that help? I think you understand that you don’t fully understand the situation, that’s ok because it is very complex.
0
0
-
385
shadowfire
in January 18th, 2009 @ 09:55382-I know.
384-That is an interesting take on things. But I still do’t think that we should be KILLING each other over something that probably isn’t fully understood. What happened to peaceful agreements?
0
0
-
386
eragon
in January 18th, 2009 @ 14:45Huh. I’m not quite sure how to respond to that, but I’ll try. Thanks, you’re probably right, ok, you’re certainly right about my point of view. I hate complex situations…but you know, what I’m trying to say is why does he think we are invading good countries? I understand what, just not why.
0
0
-
387
Vendaval
in January 18th, 2009 @ 22:43I’m in no way an expert, but I think extensive analysis has been made of transcripts of Bin Laden’s speeches, writings, and tapes, translated and annotated by a professor at Harvard. I’m very excited for the release of “How to Win a Cosmic War” in March, by Reza Aslan.
385- Tradition? There’s no good answer. There have been wars for as long as there have been history, and the West isn’t more innocent than the East if you go back to the Crusades.
386- “Why does he think we are invading good countries?”
Afghanistan was a country ruled completely under strict Islamic law before we invaded. While we see their current state as freedom, he sees it as a fall into moral decline. Iraq was orderly before we invaded, now it’s an unorganized mess, instead of being just a mess.
(I think there’s hope though, for both countries.)
Does that help? It’s hard to understand, when his views are so antipodal to your own.
0
0
-
388
groundhog22
in January 18th, 2009 @ 23:13380 – If they were planning on growing food with that, then they wouldn’t have smashed the walls of the greenhouses. As for selling…I can’t imagine them getting much money for seedlings and mulch, but you never know.
Considering that a lot of the time, the places that the Israelis are trying to bomb are communal areas where Hamas has hidden weapons, getting outside the blast area simply means going home. For the people who are being forced by Hamas to be meat-shields for the weapons hidden in their houses, I don’t have an answer. I mean, how can you help someone in that situation? The people doing the bombing think that the place is empty, but no, there are people locked in there awaiting their death. What to do? (Although I’m curious, just which Israeli tactics do you think are despicable?)I’d like to think that the Palestinian people will get fed up with Hamas and elect a government that won’t send them to their deaths, that will make and keep a peace treaty, that will allow them to have normal lives. But I don’t see it happening anytime soon. Palestinian children have been brainwashed into believing that dying is the best thing that they could ever do, so that they don’t want normal lives, they just want more war. Meanwhile, Israel slowly gives away more and more land in the hope that there will be peace.
*sigh*
0
0
-
389
Red-tailed HAWK
in January 19th, 2009 @ 19:01We interrupt this broadcast to bring you this message from our sponsors.
Just kidding. Would we be disruptive if we had another discussion going on here? If you think we are, let me know. You were here first, so we’ll find another place to go if you want us to leave…
I guess I’ll post some of the comments from the Global Warming thread, where this conversation sprung up:
105. ♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫ | January 17th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
104- I’m sorry, that’s not what I meant. What I was trying to say is that when I was little, I looked forward to having children, watching them grow, and having them be the pleasure and happiness of my old age. I still do. What angers me is that some people would take advantage of the fact that they have such an opportunity, and then throw it away.
#106. Red-tailed HAWK | January 17th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Then again, some girls would love to have kids, with their boyfriend once they finished High School and got married. Maybe they’d even been abstinent before graduating and becoming adults, hoping to get jobs, get married, and start a family. Should their good planning and dream of raising a family be ruined by some idiot? Should they have to raise some jerk’s kid, potentially having to drop out of High School to get jobs to do so, after they had been careful and waited to start a family? If they had decided to risk having a kid in High School, then sure, it’s their kid and they should raise it together. But if they had done everything they could to graduate and get jobs before having a child, I don’t think they should be forced to live a hard life, struggling to earn a living after having to drop out.
If this continues to be a topic of interest, we really should move to the Hot Topics Thread.
107. ♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫ | January 19th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Well, I don’t know. I mean, if she was dating her boyfriend and wanted to have kids with him, I seriously doubt that she would have slept with this jerk.
Red-tailed HAWK (Me) now says:
Aggie-I totally agree, if she cheated on him it’s her own fault. But what if it wasn’t her idea?
0
0
-
390
Beavo
in January 19th, 2009 @ 19:25Hi. I just read the Global Warming thread, so I wouldn’t be totally confused.
My opinion: Since I think abortion is wrong (although if I were president it would still be legalized, it’s none of the government’s business to decide who has babies, imho) I dissagree with offering abortion as a prefferable alternative to abstinance, and I strongly oppose putting the One Child Policy into effect in the US. Or anywhere, for that matter. Sex Education isn’t that bad here, but I don’t know about elsewhere. Who it dosn’t help here are the type of people who would wear buckets to school if that made them more popular. Most of our student population either choose to be abstinent, have, eh, controlled (? can’t think of a word for it) sex, or do it in hallways without precaution, and those are the bucket people. Everyone else has some sense regarding the dangers of STDs and pregnancy and whatever.
And yeah, I don’t want to just have one kid if I want to have any. Although adoption would probably be my first choice, I’m saying if I did want to have kids, there probably wouldn’t be just one. It seems a bit stupid at the least to put a One Child Policy into effect to reduce waste. It probably wouldn’t work, anyway (both the policy and what the policy was meant to do).
0
0
-
391
Beavo
in January 19th, 2009 @ 19:28SFDP.
And you guys are kind of ignoring the fact that people have more than one boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever that they have sex with. Aggie, she may have had a previous boyfriend that she slept with who wasn’t a jerk, they broke up, and she went out with someone else. Suddenly she finds out she’s pregnant and has to raise a child with the other guy. The first bofyriend dosn’t automatically become a jerk. Although if they had used condems and birth control in the first place…
0
0
-
392
The Bookworm & Lurline (410 piepoints and three B-Day Points and 42 KAG Points! And 5 Wung Points!)
in January 19th, 2009 @ 20:09I just have to point out that sex with birth control can still yield babies. If you have don’t want babies,
A) Don’t have sex or
B) Be okay with having an abortion.
If you don’t have A) or B) and you are involved in a relationship, I don’t know what to see. It’s risky.
0
0
-
393
Piggy
in January 19th, 2009 @ 20:11387- So, you’re saying dictatorship is better than a bit of anarchy giving way to democracy?
0
0
-
394
Piggy
in January 19th, 2009 @ 20:16((SFTDP.))
Breaking news! Doctors working at the country’s finest universities have discovered something that protects against both pregnancy and all known STDs at a 100% success rate! They’re calling it “abstinence”.
Sheesh. I realize this is the Hot Topics thread, but this could break down to flaming rather quickly. Hasn’t anyone told you about playing with matches?
I’ve never really liked these threads, but I suppose they’re necessary. They just seem to promote fighting and division.
Good night, everyone.
0
0
-
395
groundhog22
in January 19th, 2009 @ 21:01389 – Nah, go right ahead. The Israel/Hamas war is practically over anyway.
0
0
-
396
Amelia Peabody
in January 19th, 2009 @ 21:46Yes, abstinence works. The problem is abstinence education doesn’t.
0
0
-
397
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫
in January 19th, 2009 @ 22:27391- I know, and I don’t think that it would make the first boyfriend a jerk if they broke up and THEN she realzed she was pregnant by him. What would make him a jerk would be if she told him she was carrying his child and he refused to accept a portion of responsibility for the baby. The point is, ladies, you should only take that chance with the man you’ve married, so you’re sure he won’t take what he wants and then pass up the consequnces. Same goes for you, guys.
0
0
-
398
Vendaval
in January 20th, 2009 @ 07:07388- You seem to forget these people are living in total poverty. If you grow something, it’ll be on your own land. you can sell almost anything, especially if it’s good quality.
Israeli doesn’t just attack communal areas though, most of the civilian deaths come from private homes.
Israel has used human shields too, and they still have a “neighbor policy,” in which Israeli forces kindly ask Palestinian civilians, at gunpoint, to go checkout their neighbors homes, in case they’re rigged to explode.I’d like to think that the Palestinian people will get fed up with Hamas and elect a government that won’t send them to their deaths, that will make and keep a peace treaty, that will allow them to have normal lives.
I would too, but it’s very hard to elect somebody who will promise not to fight for you.Palestinian children have been brainwashed into believing that dying is the best thing that they could ever do, so that they don’t want normal lives, they just want more war. Meanwhile, Israel slowly gives away more and more land in the hope that there will be peace. *sigh*
Now there’s a heavily slanted view. Most people just want to live normal lives, but if they’ve never known a normal life because they’re unemployed and unschooled, where else can they go? We’ve talked about this before, the very important economic side of the conflict. You also make Israel sound like a country that’s just been giving away land left and right to help out their backward neighbors. How did Israel gain all of that land in the first place?393- No, if you’d read my post carefully you’d see that I’m stating that’s what I think Osama bin Laden thinks.
394- Abstinence won’t be used! Not by most of the population anyway. Never has been. Birth control that’s cheap and easy to use is about 98% effective. That’s pretty good.
You’re doing an exemplary job of keeping the peace. I think groundhog22 and I have been doing very well discussing a centuries old conflict without flaming.
0
0
-
399
♫ Eragon ♪ George Dubbya Bush is gone so I'm randomly extending my name! I'm HAPPYHAPPYHAPPY!
in January 20th, 2009 @ 12:35Let’s put this thread to the test! I made this up completely myself, my own idea and no copying. The only copying I did was copy/paste from my blog, where I wrote this.
Imagine (Dubbya’s Gone!)
Imagine there’s no George W. Bush…
or an Iraqi war…no torture and painy…
And no Dick Cheney too!Imagine all the people…celebrating all night! Yee hoo, yeah…
You may saaaay I’m happy. dum dum dim
But that’s an understatement. I hope Obama will do better
…and the world will be awesomer!Imagine no high taxes.
And cheap oil too.
No Iraqi invasion
And no Dubbyas too!You may saaay I’m exaggerating.
But I’m not the only one…
I hope gas prices go downAnd the world will live as one!?
The GAPAs won’t let this through [The rule is no links to personal web sites. Period. –Admin.]
0
0
-
400
♫ Agrrrfishi {Aggie}♫
in January 20th, 2009 @ 12:46396- You’re absolutely right, which is why I think that another of our new president’s goals should be more funding to sex education in schools, so that kids can actually know what sex is and the risks they could be taking before they go out into the world and do it.
0
0
-
401
Beavo
in January 20th, 2009 @ 13:46Sex Ed- It’s a great idea. Dosn’t always work, but in general, it’s good.
Abstinance- Always works, but most people only use it because of Sex Ed.
Birth Control- Dosn’t always work, but if you REALLY want to have sex…
Condems- Use them.
400-Agree. You can’t stop kids from having sex without totally burning the Constitution, but you can teach them about what the risks are and how to prevent the worst.
0
0
-
402
YodaShmoda
in January 20th, 2009 @ 17:06357/358- Thank you. That was nice. I’m not huge on Bush but it’s gotten annoying these past years everyone hating him. We’re all-um strong word blocker on my computer won’t let me type it- off at him and I think it’s annoying. He’s had a lot to get through and unlike us, his choices effect thousands. so he’s not allowed to make mistakes and you can tell he’s trying! it’s not like bush WANTS to have everything happen the way it happens.
Um… wow. I leave this thread and now it’s on to Sex Ed. Hm… I think that Sex Ed, though usefull, is held WAYY too much in my school district. I mean, FIFTH graders get it. And then again for a month in 6th and then two months in 7th and now I get an entire TWO MONTHS of contraceptive (i think that’s the wordmy teacher said) stuff and “don’t have sex” talks and what to do if you DO get pregnant and all that stuff. too much tax money is going into this. Serriously, so much as I don’t like the most probable results, back off.
0
0
-
403
Zallie
in January 20th, 2009 @ 17:30.402 – Which is better: lots of sex-ed or lots of unwanted children?
I can remember getting fed up with being told over and over again about the Pill and contraception and STDs etc. but when that stuff started to become important to me, I felt like I was educated enough to make informed decisions. You’ll be grateful for your sex-ed later, I promise.
0
0
-
404
Piggy
in January 20th, 2009 @ 17:42401- I don’t want to be mean, but “Condoms- learn how to spell them.”
394- What do your last two sentences mean / to what are they referring? I’m just a bit confused at the moment.
399- So, you’re saying George Walker Bush caused all the world’s problems singlehandedly?
402- Thank you. Was he a great president? It’s too soon to tell. But I do know that he did what he thought was right, no matter how many people hated him for it.
This is quite a diverse thread.
0
0
-
405
Cliff Eagle
in January 20th, 2009 @ 18:11I think that Bush was not a great president, however, him being president alone was a huge burden and makes him one of the greatest men ever to live. All presidents are, and even though I disagree with bush and most of his policies, and although he is also not as intelligent as some of the other presidents we have had in history, I think that both democrats and republicans can agree that Bush’s courage to take the responsibility of basically, the ruler of the free world, outweighs some of his decisions. After all, when the twin towers were hit, Bush was there to heal the wounds and find out who was responsible for the greatest attack on the democratic world in the history of man. Some of the detours taken to end the war on terror were, at the least, irresponsible, such as an unnecessary invasion of Iraq, but even that becomes more and more important now that Iran has proliferated and the troops may be the last defense that protects Iraq, which is going through a conversion to democracy, from jihadists who might overrun the country and proceed to attack some of our allies. Democrats, I find (I am an independent) use about 5 of Bush’s quotes that were, lets say, unflattering, and about 2 of Bush’s actions against him to prove that Bush was, according to a button I saw yesterday, “an insult to primates everywhere”. I challenge those same Democrats to put themselves in Bush’s position, with new terrorist threats and rogue proliferating states threatening democracy and our way of life. My hopes for the new president are to continue to fight terror and recognize that we need to work with other countries to combat threats, whether relating to terror, climate change, disease, genocide, violence, education, the economy, democracy, and issues that threaten the way we live as people across the globe.
0
0
-
406
PinkOranges
in January 20th, 2009 @ 18:41403/402 – I totally agree with you. Sex ed is a pain in the butt when you have to take it but later when you actually need to know the stuff its very useful.
0
0
-
407
Purple Panda
in January 20th, 2009 @ 19:00Abstinence isn’t 100% effective. How about artificial insemination? Virgin Mary?
0
0
-
408
Red-tailed HAWK
in January 20th, 2009 @ 19:13392-I agree. A relationship doesn’t need to involve reproduction, particularly at, er, younger ages.
397-Marriage doesn’t guarantee success in a relationship. But indeed, it’s quite a bit safer than a lot of teenage relationships. Regardless, I think it’s important to really know and trust who you’re with if it’s any kind of a serious relationship. Did you read comment 389?
I wouldn’t mind these threads nearly so much if they stayed relatively peaceful. I hope this discussion remains so, I don’t intend to offend or convert anyone. I’m just interested in your views and opinions, and think we all can benefit from and enjoy sharing our thoughts and opinions on issues.
0
0
-
409
Cliff Eagle
in January 20th, 2009 @ 19:31407- The virgin mary was *shock* not a virgin. Virgin birth, under the laws of every scientific fact known to man (and woman), could not have existed. To tell you the honest, sincere truth, I don’t know what the Christians are trying to hide about mary, but nobody would make up something that ridiculous unless they needed to cover up something. And no, I already know what you are going to say, but the episode of Saint Salume never happened according to several biblical scholars. I would like to know the theorem behind how Christians believe something like this could have happened.
0
0
-
410
Zallie
in January 20th, 2009 @ 19:58.407 (Panda) – I don’t think that’s relevant to this discussion, though. People who opt for fertility treatments are obviously looking to have a child. Aside from another Messiah, I think we can say abstinence is 100% effective, discounting rape etc.
405 (Cliff) – Being the president is an overwhelming task for anyone. I give Mr. Bush a lot of credit for doing what he thought was best. However I still question if he was a good choice to lead our country during these past eight years. There are several situations (Katrina and Iraq, to name a few) which he handled quite poorly. I don’t think he kept in touch with the American people enough. ABC news was talking about a “presidential bubble” today, which I think aptly describes Bush’s presidency, especially in the last year or so. I can’t think of a single thing he has done recently that helped the American people. Perhaps I am unaware of all of the good that he’s done, but I maintain that he was not the best man for the job. He may have tried his best, but I don’t think he measured up to the standard, or reacted well in times of pressure. It will be interesting to say what history books say about him in 25 years or so.
On another note, I wish people would stop worrying about these discussions getting out of hand, so to speak. They haven’t yet, as far as I’ve noticed, so telling other MBers to behave themselves strikes me as a bit holier-than-thou. Just my $0.02.
0
0
-
411
Purple Panda
in January 20th, 2009 @ 20:11Piggy (394): Just curious; how do you feel people should be educated on this issue? .Abstinence is, of course, the best way to prevent pregnancy and STDs, but do you think it should be the only method taught?
Zallie (409): Sorry, I know it didn’t really contribute anything.
Abstinence definitely works, but I don’t think abstinence-only education does. The more educated people are about different options, the better. Sure, abstinence can be stressed and taught as the best possible way, but people need to be informed about other ways to stay safe, too.
0
0
-
412
Robert Coontz (Administrator)
in January 20th, 2009 @ 20:20(409) Cliff Eagle: Speaking as someone who works for a journal called Science, I don’t think “the laws of science” are always a perfectly reliably guide to figuring out what happened in the past, or its importance to the present. In the 19th century, Lord Kelvin, the most renowned scientist of his time, calculated that the sun couldn’t have been burning more than a few tens of millions of years, because otherwise it would have cooled off. He underestimated its age by billions of years because neither he nor anybody else then knew about radioactivity — the source of the sun’s energy, as we now know. So the laws that we know today may be (and undoubtedly are) only part of the whole story.
Furthermore, science deals only with natural phenomena; by definition, it doesn’t deal with anything miraculous or supernatural. It’s possible that nothing supernatural exists, but religious people think it does, and that’s how they explain miraculous occurrences. They believe in them; you don’t. That’s all there is to it.
Finally, even many devout Christians don’t regard the virgin birth as particularly important one way or the other.
Okay, this thread is getting too long. Time for version 2009.1.
0
0
