Continued from version 2008.3.
Reminder: This is a place for careful, clear, respectful discussions. We expect MBers to be able to express their opinions without attacking others personally AND to be able to listen to people who disagree with them without feeling personally attacked.
Hm. What to discuss… Stereotypes/misconceptions? Let’s go with that for now.
Will the list ever be updated?
Ooh. A shiny new religion thread. I’m a lutheran. I know someone who used to worship the printer. It was a little odd. But most of the people around here are Lutheran or Catholic.
first post?
(1) We stopped updating the list as the religions became more, um, hypothetical, shall we say, and also changed with increasing frequency.
I’m Catholic, just to clear things up.
Apparently at (some) Johns Hopkins nerd camps, the majority of the people are atheists and pastafarians.
Excuse me, but that is an insult to me, and false in my experience. It seemed everone there believed in god and was republican.
I have a question: Assuming God is real, and is as He is described in the bible, why did He let the Holocaust happen?
.6 – I really don’t know, but I would be interested to hear a Jewish perspective on this.
Well, that’s a good question. A lot of Jews lost faith after the Holocaust.
For me, I guess, I view God in a less-than-conventional way. I don’t really believe in divine intervention.
A modern-day jewish version of the flagellants might say that it is a judgement on the jews showing that in some way they are being sinful. However, i can come up with no justification other than a need to leave mortals to live or die. I may be ignoring some obscure bit of scripture that provides a reasoning. Incidentally, i’m agnostic.
4) OMG! Catholics are so COOL!
Yall have the prettiest churches! And your music is awesome too! I should probubly learn about the different saints, but I never have……
6) I don’t know. Not that I would know anything about why God does things.
I guess I should tell yall that I’m Christian, Presbyterian.
I’ve never been to this thread before. Odd isn’t it? *ponders*
6- No mortal knows the ways of God, at least not that’s alive today. As far as I’m concerned, the only mortal who ever knew the way of God was jesus, and he wasn’t around to tell us about the Holocaust. Hiwever, it is written in scripture: “So keep watch; for you know neither the day nor the hour the Son of Man will come.” (Matthew 25:13). The Jews didn’t know that God was coming for them and that those horrible things were to happen to them, and neither did anyone else but God. And sometimes they may not be easy, but God always has a reason for his actions.
11- I’d just like to say that YES, we can know some of the ways of God. He’s omnipotent, omniscient, just, kind, and loving. The bible lays most of it out for us. Of course, knowing all of God is impossible because he is so FAR beyond the greatest reaches of our mind, it’s a beautiful and wonderful thing!! And yes God has a TOTAL plan for our lives. There is NO WAY we, or he, can mess it up! That’s why the Holocaust happened. He has a grand plan for the better. Jeremiah 29:11- “I have a plan for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.†Exactly! You can’t rebuke the Bible!! Which, unfortunately, our society does far too much.
Now, if someone will humor me, answer me this;
If someone gave you a piece of chocolate, what would you say and do?
So… The Holocaust was okay cause it was for the ‘greater good’? I fail to see how killing several million people can be good, no matter what comes out of it. I don’t think God, if S/He exists, is made the right choice there. S/He could’ve stopped millions of people from dying, but S/He didn’t. S/He must be heartless.
12) I would tell them “thankyou” and then I would smile. If I were really close to them, I might hug them, depending on the situation. I’m not that much of a huggy person though, so I usually only do it in extreme circumstances.
Re: Holocaust: One of my
friendsfriend-of-a-friends takes it extremely personally when someone even mentions the Holocaust. She’s partially Jewish, but my other Jewish friends do not take the Holocaust to such an extreme level. Personally, I find it a bit annoying to hear her say “remember who you’re talking to” when the Holocaust is brought up in conversations. Is this a bit touchy of me, or what?13- A lot of people share the same logic as you. The holocaust was not OK, but your view that god couldn’t have prevented it was summed up in a quote i heard once.
” God didn’t do that, bad people did. And god can’t do everything. It is impossible. But he did one thing. He gave you and me the gift of life, and its our job to use it and make the world better than we found it, the people who killed people didn’t use it in the wright way.”
15- She does seem a little extreme, coming from a jew himself, but I don’t know. A lot of her ancestors may have died in the holocaust, and none of mine did (Albania was the only Axis nation not to send their jews to the concentration camps). So it could be a touchy subject for her.
16- TYPO! on the word right
3- Well-put.
4- Well, that makes two of us on the ‘Blog for sure. I can’t remember who all is or was at one time Catholic, and which of those still post. And I’m too lazy to look it up at the moment.
10- Thanks for the complements! And to which music are you referring? The old Gregorian chant / pipe organ music? Or the new “wave your hands in the air”, drum set and electric guitar music?
12- Ummm… thank them and eat it, I guess. Why?
12-I’d be like, “um if this is poison I’ll kill you in your next life”.
Me: Born Catholic, looked into religion, didn’t want to choose one, took the BoM test, turned out New Age, didn’t like it, ended up Agnostic.
15-Touchy dosn’t begin to describe it. I could not live with that person. It’s like if a black person got all offended when you mentioned slavery. The Holocaust is treated as taboo here, you can’t talk about it seriously without people being like “ehm, I’m Jewish” or something. My grandparents are Jewish, I’m not going to be all racist.
Actually, my friends are going through their racist joke phase, which means I know almost every Jew joke you can ever tell. You even mention the word “Jew” and somebody will start laughing. It’s terrible, yes, but at least they aren’t seriously racist.
16- But then why do people pray? It seems like a waste of time, considering God isn’t going to do anything about it!
15- Yes that does sound a bit touchy. I mean, it was a horrible thing. A really horrible tradgety. But I don’t think you, or any of the people who talk about the holocaust actualy had anything to do with it. Maybe if you belived it was right, but then, why would you be her friend? It sounds sorta like the girl in Choir who always wants attention so when we sing the Jewish song that we are going to perform she starts saying over and over “I know this stuff, I’ma Jew”
20- Doesn’t it kind of seem like they’re praying for him to do something though. I mean after all, if you’re praying that means you believe in your God and your God said that “if you pray to me I’ll hear you. I may not do anything about it but it’s worth a try.” So its not really a waste of time all things considered.
And can I say that the Holocaust happened because the people of Germany needed a scapegoat? The great depression hit not long after WW1 and it hit Germany extra-special hard cause they were still paying reperations. Hitler looks for someone to blame and *bingo* he finds the already outcasted Jews. It’s horrible that their nationality, instead of “Polish” or “German” was “Jewish.” That’s why I support the whole Jews-need-Israel deal.
18) The older stuff. I think it’s so pretty!
20) I agree with Cliff Eagle. Although, I do believe that God also answers prayer as well. It’s most definately NOT a waste!
23) So God answers prayers, but he wouldn’t answer the prayers of the millions who died in the Holocaust? Why?
Why does it matter why the Holocaust happened? What about all the people killed because of drunk driving?
Once King David went to God and said, “Why are there madmen? They serve no purpose.” Then David had to escape from somewhere and pretended he was mad.
Which doesn’t make sense, because God could have changed that incident, and the cumulative effects blah blah blah. But it is a good story.
24- God had no control over it, as i explained in post 16. It was the work of evil people who didn’t use their most precious gift in the first place.
Evil is a very curious thing. It seems to suggest that god doesn’t exist, because how could evil come into being without god creating it, and isn’t god perfect?
Christian philosophers have put forth a few theories:
1) Evil is the absence of good, so evil is really a lack of something, not something itself.
2) Without evil, you cannot have good, because without contrast everything is undefined.
I don’t necessarily agree with either of them, but they are food for thought.
25-Okay, why does God let anyone die? Why can’t we all live forever?
Well, what I believe is that we have no free will,and thus ‘G-d’ is the set of natural laws and everything that is. That means that sometime G-d decided to create a world. He knew exactly what would happen for all time. Why he created this world we cannot know. But the main reason I give thanks to G-d is that he made it possible that I could have feelings. I’m not just glad for happiness. Anger, sadness, anxiety, they all are important. And that’s why I think bad things happen. So we get angry, anxious, depressed, etc.
So God is the dictator of life, the universe, and EVERYTHING?
30- Yes. I’m glad that you know so now.
31-Why? That’s not fair. Anyone … how did God get created?
32-He wasn’t created. He needn’t be created. He CREATED everything, but nothing created him.
33) Exactly! He just is. Like he said, “I am what I am.”
What do you think of these?
1. I believe with perfect faith that God is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.
2. I believe with perfect faith that God is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our God He was, He is, and He will be.
3. I believe with perfect faith that God does not have a body. physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all.
4. I believe with perfect faith that God is first and last.
5. I believe with perfect faith that it is only proper to pray to God. One may not pray to anyone or anything else.
6. I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.
7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses (Moshe) is absolutely true. He was the chief of all prophets, both before and after Him.
8. I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that we now have is that which was given to Moses.
9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will never be another given by God.
10. I believe with perfect faith that God knows all of man’s deeds and thoughts. It is thus written (Psalm 33:15), “He has molded every heart together, He understands what each one does.”
11. I believe with perfect faith that God rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.
12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day.
13. I believe with perfect faith that the dead will be brought back to life when God wills it to happen.
Those are the ikarim(articles of faith) of Judaism according to Ramban/Maimonides/R. Moshe ben Maimon. I’d be interested to know what some non-jews (and other Jews) think.
28-Because then we’d rise up and overthrow God. or it would disrupt the balance of things. The second is much more likely.
Holocaust:We’ve talked about it in class a lot now, and it’s beginning to lose its effect on most people. Not me. I’m a Jew, and that has some effect on it, but mostly I’ve read many accounts of what happened, and I just can’t absorb the reason for being so incredibly evil to so many people, for a reason they can’t control.
35) I agree with almost every single one of those, except that I believe that Jesus was the Messiah. But I guess you already knew that. And OMG I’m so HYPER! OK. So I think…. never mind my mind is going off and it has strayed from thining abotu what pertaions top this thread…..
35- I believe none of them.
To me, there isn’t a God, in the sense of the Christian religion. Actually, I am fairly sure there is no god at all. I am an agnostic leaning towards atheist (mostly atheist, really, but I never deal in absolutes).
If humans/the earth was, on the off chance, actually shaped by something… I don’t believe at all that it’s judging out every move and paying attention to everything we say or think, and decided fate for s all. I mean… really. This is part of the reason why I don’t believe a bit in the Christian’s version of God.
And, if he actually did exist (which I do not think), and this could be proven to me beyond a doubt… I would not choose to follow him. I will not align myself with something that condemns things I truly stand for– love, equality, freedom (and freedom of speech, belief, ect as well).
I’m not saying that no one should believe in a god if it really is important to their lives and thinking but… it is most certainly not something I would be able to do, or want to. Blind, unquestioning faith especially.
35-If the “perfect faith” deal wasn’t in there, I might believe one or two. I’m pretty sure God exists, and I believe that if he does, he has no body and nothing resembles him. And that he knows everything, which is what kind of makes him God. But although I see no proof for it, I see none against it, so I’m firmly agnostic.
And if everything Mom says I’m going to hell for is true, there must be a reserved seat for me. I’ve worshiped other Gods, I’ve (tried) to practice magick, and of course I’ve stolen, lied, lusted, been disrespectful to my parents, been lazy, lost faith, and pretty much everything your not supposed to do except for killing and commiting adultery.
39-everything resembles god. he is in everything and everywhere.
21 – I said ‘friend of a friend’.
And it’s not just the Holocaust. There’s a mysterious elevator in my school which is hardly ever used. My friend who used it was playing on that mysteriousness and joking that it was a gas chamber. It was actually really funny, because, very solemnly, he said “I’ve been in that elevator, you know. It was a gas chamber. It nearly killed me.” Everyone cracked up – except her. She bade us remember who we were talking to.
35 – I believe none of those.
39- I know how you feel. Maybe it’s just raging hormones but I’m really questioning being Christian. And it hurts me to say this but I don’t know what to believe in. It sorta sucks. A lot. Very very much because I end up thinking about this in church every Sunday. :/
35-well, so much for me becoming a jew then! Due to the perfect faith clause, i don’t believe any, but the one about god not having a body seems reasonable enough.
42-I gave up being Christian before I left the church. I really only went because Mom did. I’m sure God’s plan for me didn’t include dying of broken back from hard wooden pews.
I was hurt at first that I questioned what I had lived my whole life in, and scared that I’d go to hell like everyone said. I’m still freaked out about that, but not as much. If I’m wrong, I’m totally hellbound, but I can’t change that because I’m not honestly sorry for exploring my belief. He GAVE us the ability to question his existance, and why would he if he knew almost everyone would be condemnned?
If I’m right about my beleifs, then I’ve lived by the whole “Love Thy Neighbor” idea which is kind of the main idea of the Bible anyway, isn’t it? So I’m going to “heaven”, whatever that is.
38 — you my dear lady may find deism appealing. it denies the divinity of jesus and all the miracles of the bible, but acknowledges a supreme being who has created the universe but has no hand in it.
my bff voltaire was a deist, as were ben franklin, thomas jefferson, etc etc. it was the religion of the enlightenment
I believe in kindness and understanding.
28- Adam and Eve brought the punishment of death to mankind when they committed the first sin, in the Garden of Eden. And God still gives us a chance to live with him in Paradise, so death is arbitrary.
Basically what I can say is that God has planned everything for a reason. What this exact reason is and how current happenings work towards it no man can say. But I have hope in knowing that everything happens for a reason lain out by God before time began.
44- He gave us free will because without it, there would be no love in the world. It’s like playing The Sims. If you just make each character do exactly what you want, nothing good is going to happen. However, if you let them do their own thing, then it will be much more interesting. Real life isn’t quite like that, but it’s a good illustration. If you force someone to love you, is it really love? But if you give them a choice and they choose to love you, it’s much more meaningful, and actually true.
Don’t give up on your faith just because the pews were too hard. If religions weren’t necessary to get to Heaven, or what you think of as “heaven”, why do they exist? And why have they existed throughout all of history?
In any case, I’ll be praying for everyone. If I’m right, I’m doing you a huge favor. If you’re right, I’m just wasting my time. The only reason I’m explaining this is because I’ve been yelled at before for praying for someone on MB.
35- I disagree with 3 and 5, and somewhat with those having to do with the Torah and the Messiah, being Catholic. I suppose I disagree with 3 and 5 because of my Catholic faith as well. So basically, it’s like the great John Paul II said, that Jews are the “elder brothers” of Christians. I really respect Judaism and Islam, and almost feel closer to those religions than other sects of Christianity, mainly because the Reformation ended a millennium and a half of tradition, while Islam and Judaism have, for the most part, held on to the beliefs with which they began. Tradition is extremely important to me and my life, so I respect those who believe the same.
27- Not just Christian philosophers. Einstein himself, if I can remember seventh grade correctly, believed firmly in your first point. The whole thing goes something like this:
A student goes to his professor one day and asks why God created evil. His professor says that God did not do so. He asks the student, “Does silence exist?” The student responds, “Of course. You hear it every day. The professor objects, “No, it does not. Silence is only the absence of sound. Does cold exist?” The student again says, “Obviously. Anyone could see that,” and his professor replies, “No. Cold is only the absence of heat. Does darkness exist?” His student firmly responds, “Yes! It exists all over the place!” The professor says, “Darkness is only the absence of light. Now, does evil exist?” The student decrees, “Yes, yes, yes! It exists in great abundance in our world! It fills the streets and the government buildings! If nothing else exists, evil surely does.” The professor calmly explains, “No. Evil is only the absence of love. When Lucifer turned his back on God, he turned away from the light and warmth and voice of God into darkness, coldness, and silence, and this lack of love is what you call ‘evil’. Any person who lives in this ‘evil’ needs only turn back to God and once again live with Him, and be in love.”
Good night, everybody. See you later.
I pick my god to fit the occasion. It doesn’t matter much to me as I don’t believe in any of them.
i believe in a sense of humor.
42+44- questioning religion is good. *commends*
*vanishes*
[Haha, sorry GAPAs, got a bit carried away. :)]
I would like to know how Christians explain fossils of no-longer-living animals. My sister asked a counselor about that once at a Christian summer camp, and he said that “God made a mistake”. But don’t Christians believe that God is perfect? I am extremely confused.
49- I don’t really know how Fundamentalists explain it, but there are a lot of Christians, such as myself, who do believe in evolution. My personal belief is that God is why, science is how.
(46) The story is usually told the other way around, with a young, philosophically inclined Albert Einstein getting the better of a skeptical professor or teacher. According to Snopes.com (www . snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp), however, there is no evidence that such an exchange ever took place between a teacher and Einstein (or, for that matter, anyone else).
46- Religion exists to guide us to heaven, or at lease peace with god. God is everything, everywhere. God is peace. God is calm. God is Happiness. God is joy. God is love. God is warmth on a cold day. God is coolness on a hot day. God is great. God loves every one and everything. God doesn’t discriminate. God welcomes People of any race, people of any Sexual orientation, of any belief. As long as someone respects god’s “Creation”, which is a word i use because I’m not sure what to call it, they will be with God in heaven.
35- I don’t believe that one perfect set of rules can exist to govern everything. I do believe in helpful tips, which can be found in most religions.
49- Most (vast majority, I think) Christians believe in evolution, KaiYves puts it perfectly. Fundamentalists believe dinosaurs initially lived with humans, but God killed them in the flood (I can’t really speak for them though. That might just be Young Earth?).
Beavo, I think you should keep trying different religions, it sounds to me like you rejected Christianity for reasons not including to your beliefs. There are plenty of other Christian churches that won’t tell you you’re going to Hell right away.
42- I won’t tell you what to think. No one should. But you may find it helpful to just spend an hour alone, thinking about what you feel about life and what goes on.
45- That reminded me of the other point that I was going to mention. I hate when people bring up Christianity of the backbone of the nation or whatever, when in fact Jefferson one of the ‘founding fathers,’ as it were, was deist/atheist, ect.
But deism isn’t what I think insofar as I don’t believe that anything ‘created’ the universe. If I streeeeetch my imagination, I can think that perhaps something poked around and stirred some stuff up the resulted in life, but not all-powerful or seeing or anything. Actually, come to it, I feel it’s more likely we were created by aliens than a god (although thinking like that for to long ends up with me coming to then aliens would equal god anyway, and if I concentrate hard enough I can switch my thinking so that I feel like I’m going to fall of the earth (that one can actually be kind of fun though very, very dizzying). Dangerous thing, thinking).
46- And what about when people do evil, vile things in the name of what they believe is love?
52- “people of any Sexual orientation”
I thought a big problem going on was that this wasn’t true.
I’m a Piescreamist, which means I worship Pi (3.141592653589792384461..) and the Holy Ice Cream Bar.
I have never thought of religion as very important, but you know, people who do evil, vile things in the name of “love” often do it just because they are afraid of something coming after them if they don’t. I read a book recently on the links between crime and religion, and 17% of all murders committed are said to have some link to religion. A lot of them are because the murderers in questions think they hear a voice or something telling them to do it and are afraid of the wrath of whatever they worship if they don’t.
49- They died out so the world could keep turning. You’re right; God doesn’t make mistakes. He knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen, and designed everything to fit his master plan.
51- That could very well be. I haven’t heard that story in years. It’s still a good story, though.
52- Yes, God welcomes everyone, but he does not let just anyone get into heaven. If he did, what would be the point of life? Oh, and what religion are you? That would facilitate discussion greatly. Are you Deist? Agnostic? Unsure?
54- All we can do is pray for them and hope they find God. Not all vile things will send you to Hell. If you commit a mortal sin, such as suicide, when you are not in your right mind, do not know the seriousness of the sin, or do not freely choose to commit the sin, the severity is lessened.
Does any other Catholic here attend the Traditional Latin Mass?
56- The point of life is to spread joy and love and happiness. To live. To exist. 42. etc.
I am a proud Christian. I am the son of a minister. I am United Church of Christ, which is the same denomination as Obama. We believe in evolution, in gay marriage, in a women’s right to have an abortion if she so wants. near 100% of my local church was for Obama, We are the most liberal denomination if you don’t find UU’s to be Christian, etc. We believe the bible is not the word of god, but more like the greek myths: they are stories that are told to say how to be good. and you have to remember that that was more then 3000 years ago. God is still speaking. Are you listening?
I play in the band for a UU church, and go to their music services. They seem more interested about people, than religion. There are atheists, Christians, Jews, almost any liberal denomonation has joined.
57-That sounds like a good idea for a religion.
54- oh I’m not a deist myself. I think if I did believe in any sort of creator that I would be a deist or some sort.
Thomas Jefferson’ himself believe one of his greatest achievements was separation of church and state, so much so that he put it on his headstone and omitted any mention of his Presidency.
57- that is wonderful.
53-I’ve mostly rejected my church (Catholic) because of it’s history and how conservative it is. I haven’t really looked into other churches or even many religoins that deeply, because I don’t have good sources on the internet. I used to have a book on religon, but I can’t find it… I’m not that worried about my religon right now. I’m into other things, although I’m willing to discuss religion (obviously).
56-I think I’ve been to a couple years and years ago. And on Christmas a couple of times.
57-That dosn’t sound too bad, I’ll have to look into it.
I just get [irritated? miffed? furious?] at the people who claim everyone’s going to hell except for them when they’re doing “God’s work” (ahem, Fred Phelps, you freak). I don’t think God specifically told Westboro Baptist to hold up signs at funerals stating that “God hates fags”.
And the people who shove religion (or lack of one, athiests aren’t off the hook) down people’s throats. I met this lutheran lady on a plane to CA, and I was athiest at the time, and she kept trying to convert me with cheezy pamphlets. If “Jesus loves YOU! Isn’t it AMAZING?”, I still don’t think he’s too happy with the childish pamphlets that filled my backpack when I got off the plane.
Robert posted this on the polling place earlier, but this sums up most debates about god:
There were six men of Hindustan,
to learning much inclined,
Who went to see an elephant,
though all of them were blind,
That each by observation
might satisfy his mind.
The first approached the elephant,
and happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
at once began to bawl,
“This mystery of an elephant
is very like a wall.â€
The second, feeling of the tusk,
cried, “Ho, what have we here,
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear,
This wonder of an elephant
is very like a spear.â€
The third approached the elephant,
and happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
thus boldly up and spake,
“I see,†quoth he, “the elephant
is very like a snake.â€
The fourth reached out an eager hand,
and felt above the knee,
“What this most wondrous beast
is like is very plain†said he,
“‘Tis clear enough the elephant
is very like a tree.â€
The fifth who chanced to touch the ear
said, “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
deny the fact who can;
This marvel of an elephant
is very like a fan.â€
The sixth no sooner had begun
about the beast to grope,
Than seizing on the swinging tail
that fell within his scope;
“I see,†said he, “the elephant
is very like a rope.â€
So six blind men of Hindustan
disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
exceeding stiff and strong;
Though each was partly in the right,
they all were in the wrong!
.56 – Piggy – No, I’ve never been to a Latin mass before. I’ve always wanted to, though, because I think churches/cathedrals are really beautiful and that the tradition in more orthodox religions is so fascinating. I don’t agree with the Church’s politics/beliefs for the most part, but I’m really drawn to the aspects of tradition and history present.
61- I would agree. If faith was debatable, it would be logical. 46- in my opinion, a lack of goodness is indifference, not evil. 57- the UCC sounds quite good. I might convert.
56- Re: Latin Mass- No, partly because I wouldn’t know of a parish that gives them, and partly because I wouldn’t know what was being said. Well, I would, because it’s no different, but I’d just like to understand each word.
57- Good summary. I can affirm that my local UCC is like that, but not every local church is, as the UCC is governed from the bottom up, and there aren’t really any church-wide regulations.
60- Thanks for posting that. I hadn’t seen it as a poem before.
51-
I always get that silly email. I am a good person, though. I only send the Snopes article to (s)he who sent it to me. I do not hit “Reply to All.”
56- Not Catholic, but I’d go to a Latin mass if I knew of one. Latin rocks.
60- Chick Tracts? I LOVE those. Probably not for the reason that lady did, though.
Mel’s thoughts on religion:
-I don’t have one; I don’t believe in anything supernatural. And I’m pretty okay with that. I’d rather honestly not believe and not care, than kinda-sorta-maybe believe, y’know, just in case. I think the latter is far worse.
-Along that line, I think I put truth above everything else. Truth is the guiding principle upon which Starfleet is based: scientific truth, historical truth, or personal truth. If you can’t find it within yourself to stand up and tell the truth, you don’t deserve to wear that uniform.
-Sorry, couldn’t resist.
-But, yeah, I’d rather be honest with myself about these things, than delude myself into thinking/believing anything I cannot find to be true.
-That, and I’ve always had a glowering, skulking distrust of any sort of authority, doubly so for authorities of the self-appointed variety, triply so for those with outrageous CHA scores. That’s a dump stat, guys.
-Am I allowed to talk about Fridgey here? I think he said it best when he said “The only god is the one in me.” Unless he was quoting someone else. Then that person said it best.
65-“Triply so for those with outrageous CHA scores. That’s a dump stat, guys.” Unless you’re a sorcerer…. *Laughs*
Here’s what I think is at the heart of most religions:
Selfless Selfish
Good Bad
What do you think?
37_So you do not believe in seven and nine.
Let’s take out perfect faith then. Anyway, the idea is that these are fundamental, but it’s okay to doubt them, because if you don’t go through a ‘stage’ like that, you can never truly believe. I’m not trying to convert, you though, I was just wondering.
66- ??? My line disappeared. This is what I meant:
Selfless Selfish
Good Bad
I’m orthodox christian. Our church is kind of different, though- we do our services in English. Most orthodox churches have services in Greek or Russian.
60 (Beavo)- You know, in one of those rallies there was this guy in the middle holding up a sign that said “God Hates Shrimp”. He made an excellent point.
60- oh man, yeah. My brother once got stuck listening to Jehova’s Witnesses. He didn’t want to be rude and tell them to leave him alone because he was quite fine with his current religion. I think the best way to deal with people trying to convert you is to nod and smile and explain quite firmly that you are quite fine where you are, thank you.
Bookworm: do you mean
Selfless/selfish
Good / Bad?
I am an atheist, but I also like hypothetical conundrums, and I semi-think of atheism as a high- risk bet. If I am right, I can have a fun scientific, MIT (hopefully in 5 years) filled life. If I am wrong, I rot in hell. For a religious person (this example is of a christian), if en is right, en will walk around with ens soul mate, both awkwardly knowing that, when they expired, they ceased to be married. If the religious person is wrong, then en will have prayed, gone to churches, altered ens daily lifestyle, avoided doing many, many things, and been perceived very differently, by some, all for naught.
72- You can go to MIT if your religious!
72- Sorry, for some reason my graphic (A Continuum: ) didn’t work. It could also be represented as
The Core of (most) Religions:
Selfless=Good
Selfish=Bad
65- Haha, Fridgy. The quote of his that I that I really liked/remembered was “God is man-made. God should be a moral compass, isntead he is used by man for his own material needs. God is an illusion, a lie. All gods are. The only thing divine is inside us.”
Quite stuck with me. Man made gods, not the other way around, has always made so much more sense to me.
I have remarkable self control, it seems. Oh yes.
61- yeah, most of us have heard that poem, but is it saying that we’re blind to God? Or just viewing him in different ways.
74-On Selfish/Selfless:
“Achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose of your life, and that happiness, not pain or mindless self-indulgence, is the proof of your moral integrity, since it is the proof and the result of your loyalty to the achievement of your values.”
-Ayn Rand
Selfish? Selfless?
69) Why would they do that? Unless the most of the congregation understood Russian or something like that. If people understood English, wouldn’t the service be in english?
78- I think it’s probably like Latin in Roman Catholic Churches. The language might be considered more holy, or the congregation probably did speak Russian at one time, if they do not continue to. In the Catholic Church every mass is pretty much identical, so you would still know what’s going on even if it were in another language.
Hi Sunrunner Bramblewood ! Haven’t seen you around much.
70-Yeah, there were a bunch of people counter-protesting against WBO at Red Lobster.
The WBC is coming to my town on March 18
69- Because Orthodoxy is found most prominently in Greece and Russia. People started doing the services in Russian, and Orthodoxy is all about tradition.
That reminds me of a joke- How many Orthodox christians does it take to change a lightbulb?
Answer- Change? CHANGE? What do you mean, change?
79-Hi to you too! I’ve been really busy with finals, but since those are over now, I’ll be able to post more!
81- What will you do? What do you think is going to happen?
82- I have midterms soon too.
And I have a question! What does Orthodoxy say about the idea of a Trinity? I was listening to a podcast lecture series on Byzantine history, and was reminded of the Great Schism.
I guess if Orthodoxy isn’t big on change you still have the same doctrine.
83- I have absolutely no idea. probably just everyone ignores them
81-Ooh, I totally dare you to protest with sings that say “God hates shrimp” and “Ban Red Lobster” etc. I DARE you.
You have no idea how envious I am…
If you guys remember from your history classes, the Catholic church wholly disagreed with the idea that the Bible, much less the actual Mass, should be in the congregation’s vernacular. I think that was also why they weren’t big on parish literacy? It (the church) discouraged alternate interpretations that one might come to if you could read the Bible for yourself (or hear it being read) and thus exerted its own influence and so on. That’s why Martin Luther was such a big deal, because he thought people should read the Bible themselves, in their own language, and take services in a language they actually knew.
My grandparents went to some Latin masses! and Vendaval is right, catholic masses are all essentially identical. I’ve never been to another type of church so I can’t compare, but it is very formulaic. Sometimes I think people wouldn’t notice if they priest started speaking in Latin…haha
I suppose I am “culturally” Catholic? If that makes sense. I find the services interesting.
Ha I really should stop trying to come in in the middle of threads…I can’t keep up!
Just know that I am stalking this thread…ready to leap in at any moment…mwa ha ha.
Speaking of Catholicism, I was interested to see that the online forum at InsideCatholic.com has rules very similar to the ones here at MuseBlog. I’ll paste them in here:
RULES FOR COMMENTS: We want to host a constructive but civil discussion among mature adults. With that in mind:
1. No name calling or personal attacks; stick to the argument, not the individual.
2. Assume the goodwill of the other person, especially when you disagree.
3. Don’t make judgments about the other person’s sinfulness or salvation. You are not the Inquisition.
4. Within reason, stick to the topic of the thread; no conversation hijackers, please.
5. If you don’t agree to the rules, don’t post.
We reserve the right to block or edit (tone, not content) any posts that violate our usage rules. And we will freely ban any commenters unwilling to abide by them.
Finally, our comments are moderated so there may be a delay between the time when you submit your comment and the time when it appears.
85- Somebody at a campaign rally had a sign that said “God hates bigots!” I thought that was perfect.
86- I’m sorry, but I have to speak up. The reason people didn’t read the Bible on their own is because, though the printing press had been invented, books were still expensive for the common man. And the reason Mass is in Latin is that it has been so since the late 300s. It’s traditional, and the translations of the Bible are more correct. The less language-to-language conversions there are, the less mistakes there will be. I can’t be sure about times past, but if you go to a TLM (Traditional Latin Mass) today, the read the Epistle and the Gospel in English as well as Latin, and, of course, the homily is in English (or whatever the local language is).
The reason the Catholic Church is so big on tradition is that we don’t want to lose the teaching of the church fathers, during and immediately after the time of Christ. If you study writings from St. Paul, St. Augustine, and other such fellows, you see that they believed what devout Catholics today believed, as compared to the other Protestant and Orthodox faiths. And, in my opinion, I’d rather believe what the people who were taught by the Apostles believed instead of what someone 1500 years later believed. But that’s just me; I’m not saying you have to convert or anything; I’m not trying to be radical or condescending; I’m only stating my beliefs.
88- I don’t expect you to answer, but are you Catholic, do you just visit that forum occasionally, or what? *waits patiently for a probable non-answer*
(90) I’m not Catholic, though I know a fair amount about Catholicism. I was reading a forum about Galileo. It’s the 400th anniversary of his telescope, and the Church is holding a meeting to discuss him again.
77- Yes, but Rand was against religion. Objectivism is a philosophy/political system. However, her views are not without merit.
So, what does everyone think? Is Selfless=Good, Selfish=Bad the center of religion?
75- Here’s something that makes sense to me: Why? If there is no God, then why this crazy universe? Why are there these gravity, nuclear, and electromagnetic forces and hold this place together for no apparent reason? When you think about it in it’s simplest form, the fundamental forces make just as much sense as anything else. Why couldn’t things with lots of mass repel each other? Or there be not protons, electrons, and neutrons, but instead glakfarks, knocktiks and wazoos with crazy properties of their own? What created this wacky cosmos and threw in all these rules? The equation is totally unbalanced. Which is why I could never become an atheist.
93-So the universe would implode and the constants would change until the balance was right.
Anyway, our world is pretty unpredictable. If we lived in a different one, we would think that was normal.
93- But couldn’t you look at that and say “Wouldn’t a God design everything with sense?”
People often use the beauty and symmetry of nature as proof for God, it’s interesting you claim the opposite.
95- What I’m saying, Vendy, is that without a God, everything that has ever existed makes no sense.
You see: What created the universe? The big bang. Where did the big bang come from? This random infinitely dense ball of mass that was held together by these fundamental laws that suddenly exploded for no reason. Where did that ball of mass and those fundamental laws come from? Makes no sense.
Here, think of it this way:
1. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed.
2. So: in order for nature to fulfill that law WITHOUT a divine force, matter would have to have existed infinitely. And infinity is a paradox that doesn’t work, unless there’s some divine force beyond our comprehension.
Here’s another one:
1. There are four fundamental laws of the universe: Gravity, weak nuclear forces, etc.
2. There is a reason for every law. (That sounds fair, right? You can’t say that “things with mass attract other things just because they want to.”)
3. So, what set these laws? What–besides a divine being–commanded electrons and protons to attract each other? Does it make any sense without a divine being?
One must think extra-universally. That is difficult because it is our reality, and it’s rules apply to us. Throw out everything you’ve ever known or believed in, and start from scratch. Without God, what makes sense? Definitely not this place.
Why is quiet not loud? Why is loud not quiet? Why is pain painful? Why is craziness crazy? Why is intelligence smart? Why is dark dark? Why is light bright? Why is good good? Why is evil bad? Why is laughter funny? Why is water wet? Why do the rules make sense? Why does anything make sense? Whoohoo! Heehee! Haha! There are no rules outside of the cosmos.
Just because we don’t know the answer doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist. If this were 200 years ago, you could have listed electricity as a force that operates without being understood.
We seek a unified field theory to explain these laws, but there does not need to be a “reason” for them. “Reason” is a manmade concept.
Why couldn’t laws just simply exist? Forces of nature certainly don’t question themselves, they just are.
What would a world that “makes sense” look like?
Last Paragraph-
You use a number of semantic arguments, which are solely linguistic.
Things like “Why is pain painful?” can be explained through evolution (I think Dawkins covers morality in this book The God Delusion).
The cosmos is all.
Why are we arguing about Catholicism? Some people are, and some aren’t. If you aren’t, then good for you. If you are, that’s great too. Why are we discussing whether it’s true or not?
Sorry if this a wrong – drat, I just forgot the word. Um…
Reaction? No… I hate blanking out like this…
Understanding? Kind of. What’s a word for understanding? Interpretation? That works.
Yes. Sorry if that was a wrong interpretation, I only just read the first few posts.
I feel like such an idiot, actually typing out my thought process here.
(99) “Misinterpretation”?
97- That does make an inane amount of sense.
98- But if man was made by God, then wouldn’t reason be God-made? And if indeed reason was imposed by God, then God himself would be the theory you seek. And God would be also the creator of natural forces, because when he made the world, the forces of nature and man and ‘reason’ came along with it!
A world that makes sense is one where God is present in the lives of every man, woman, child, every source of being on earth. For some people, this is already true. And it’s also true that god is always present in everyday life. Even if you try to push him out, he will still be there. When everyone stops pushing and becomes one with Him, He will come back to earth, and order will be restored. It has been said that only God knows the hour, but we know that he will raise us up on the last day.
100 – YES! Thank you.
99- I don’t think we are. At least I’m not, the current conversation is about post 93.
I think writing out thought process can be interesting and useful.
102- So if reason was made by God and implemented in people, why do we see the universe at its most basic level as illogical?
I meant a world that “makes sense” in the physical way IBCF is ruminating on.
99- Ah, suffering from a case of onamonotomania, are you? I apologize for spelling that incorrectly; that issue of Muse is up in my room, and my spell checker doesn’t recognize that word.
If anyone wants to read about this, St. Thomas Aquinas proved the necessary existence of God in some of his writings. I’m not sure which ones, so you’d have to do a bit of research.
Many people have proposed various proofs of various definitions of God; you can read dozens of them in Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God) and decide what you think of them.
.96 — AGH! NONONONONO! Okay. Sorry. I’ll stop with the caps and actually present a reasonable argument.
Alright. So. Imagine that you have a huge scrapyard with all the parts for a Boeing 747. Now, imagine that we have a hurricane come through. The odds are astronimically against the Boeing 747 being created. Right? Right.
Now, think of the 747 as your God. God has to be incredibly complex in order to be omniscient and omnipotent*, and so the 747 is, in fact, a woefully inadequate metaphor. At this point I realize that I’m not disproving the point about the Big Bang, but instead saying that God’s no more probable. Although, in fact, I’m pretty sure that there are theories about how the Big Bang happened. I believe that the Higg-Boson particles would help, if they indeed do show up with the LHC.
What I am doing is defending evolution. Evolution gives us a ramp up to where we are now — it increases gradually, all from the Big Bang. God is starting directly with an irreducibly complex being. See the 747 argument. Which works better?
I apologize if my post sounded like Richard Dawkins — the reason would be that it is basically stolen from him — I hope my own words expressed his ideas in this case. Speaking of Dawkins, I once again recommend that everyone here read The God Delusion. Piggy, Aggie, and IBCF especially.
*In fact, one could say that this is impossible. If God is omniscient then he/she/it knows what it’s going to do next, and therefore cannot change that. If that course of action is changed that it was not omniscient after all.
92 — I personally think that controlling the masses is the center of religion.
As I was speaking about Dawkins before, I have to mention that on another thread I’d seen people saying that love couldn’t be scientifically explained. Dawkins did. I don’t know if he was right, but it’s definitely possible to explain.
93 — You make it sound like this was the first time a universe happened, or that it’s the only one. You have no way of knowing that that’s true — there is infinite possibility for other universes. That said, there are infinite opportunities for chance to come up with the basis of our universe. It’s mindboggling, but true. This almost certainly isn’t the only universe — it’s just the one we exist in.
Once again, read The God Delusion! It’s very very very interesting, and explains a lot of what we’ve been saying. And it’s a good read, regardless.
I’ll be sticking around, so if I see anything else that I feel needs a response it’ll definitely appear. And please — stop mentioning things without explaining, be they manuscripts or reasons. “Oh, I know why this is but I don’t feel like explaining it.” That makes me feel that you have no argument, or just don’t care. Which won’t help my disposition toward you. At all.
106- I’m not sure I like the 747 analogy, but I know what it means. I should read The God Delusion, I’ve heard before that it’s very good, if a bit angry.
The response in 106 to post 93 reminded me of a theory I heard once, I think it was a variant of string theory:
Our universe exists on one membrane. This membrane may be a Möbius strip, infinite, what have you. There are other membranes, existing very close to ours. When events twist or warp these membranes (natural flow, ultra dense spot pulling down a hole), they may touch, which would be catastrophic for both membranes, and possibly reset them both to Big Bang conditions. So, if I remember correctly, the cosmos may be undatable and ever-changing.
I’d really like to hear what Piggy has to say on St. Thomas Aquinas.
106 – The Boeing 747 analogy could be applied the other way as well. The odds are so astronomically against a hurricane putting one together from scrap metal, and the universe is much more complex than a Boeing 747. Therefore, if it takes conscious building to make a Boeing 747, then the universe would have taken some conscious building as well.
106- but what if god, by god’s very nature, is irreducibly complex, but not incredibly complex? what if god is the in everything? what if god is the strings of string theory?
108- But the universe seems really random. There isn’t much order, except what gravity and the other forces have pulled it loosely into.
I suppose order isn’t complexity though.
This analogy is used by evolution deniers, that’s why I’m wary of it.
Could God have evolved? If God were the “the strings of string theory,” then the Big Bang would be a turning point for both matter and consciousness.
90) I was raised Catholic. My comment was just that to a certain extent there was a concern with individual interpretation, in part because as you said, Latin was preferred as the unadulterated version. But as a political entity the Church did benefit from an unquestioning parish which did not interpret the Bible, as Martin Luther did. A challenge to their religious beliefs was also a challenge to dominance in the “Christian world” which was until the Reformation mainly Catholics. A good deal of it is religious since it is a church. But the many new churches which split off from the Catholic church are a result of interpretations of the Bible, problems within the church (indulgences, corruption), and so on. I am branching off a bit far here, though. All that is a bit irrelevant…
Yes it is tradition,but it some form it was a way of exerting control over the parish. I’m sure many more would have questioned it at the time if they themselves could read it instead of hearing a priest tell them what it meant. Though the poverty of a people probably factors into their willingness to question the one thing that might bring them salvation.
I’m being redundant here.
I don’t think analogies are ever really effective. To me you’re always just talking about a 747. I’ve seen books like the God Delusion and so on, but I don’t know if you can very really convince someone on either side to believe the opposite. I don’t think I ever really believed in a god, and it was only a matter of sorting that out in my mind, not an actual process of being “convinced”. I would like to see what arguments books like that offer, though the angry atheist is often just as bad as the crazy fundamentalist.
98- 1. So you’re saying the fundamental rules could be more complex? No matter how far you go, there’s a point where you have to say a force “is just there.”
2. Nonsense! The universe is based on reason! The reason matter attracts other matter is because of gravity. The reason for the universe is the big bang. The reason for chemical reactions is valence electrons and ions, or whatever. Everything happens for a reason.
3. This cosmos is all? That’s a kind of closed-minded way of thinking.
103- The universe–at it’s most basic sense–is illogical, but only without a God. God makes more sense than matter that’s been here forever, or fundamental forces that “just are.”
106- If God is omnipotent, why can’t he/she/it have started as the complex being he/she/it is?
As for the omniscience rant, nicely argued–but I never said God had to be omniscient. In fact, the only thing I said was that there’s a divine being capable of creating a universe of reason.
Evolution: Evolution ramps up…from where?
Big bang–But where did it get the matter and the fundamental laws? Same for all the other theoretical universes. Where did the “scrap heaps” come from?
Was that last paragraph directed towards me?
107- So…where did the material for all these universes come from?
108- Yes, but Glasseh did say that there’s an infinite number of possible universe configurations. Which, in my opinion, makes a lot less sense than God, but who am I to judge?
109- Worded perfectly, TMFA.
97_QCQC?! That’s not a proof.
1. Matter is spread out infinitely wide. Well, why not infinitely back in time?
There is no known reason for the weak nuclear force.
How does anything make sense w/ or w/out God? It’s just our perception. The whole universe is just our perception. For example, maybe the GAPAs created MuseBlog just for you, and the other people aren’t people? It’s just your perception. And that’s my answer to all of you trying to prove that God does or does not exist.
Don’t get me wrong. I believe in God. But this Holy Grail, the proof r disproof of God, is not attainable.
It’s just our perception.
113- Not so. The universe is limited, and still expanding, according to most astronomers. Unless I’ve missed something.
1. I am not trying to prove or disprove God, I am trying to say that the possibility of his/her/it’s existence is completely viable.
2. But our perception of the universe is based on the scientific method. And that has always worked for us, hasn’t it?
114_According to most astronomers, the universe is infinite and expanding.
By our perception, I mean seeing, etc. A deaf man cannot sense the vibrations in the air we call sound. They still exist. All that we know was packaged, sealed, checked, looked at, and finally delivered to our concious mind.
113-Nicely put. And anyways, the point of faith is that you can’t prove it, yet you still believe in it.
I just read an article/email that I thought was really interesting, regardless of your faith. Not sure how many of you have seen it, but I thought I’d post it here anyways.
The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.
[Nthanda: We’re snipping Mr. Stein’s commentary because (1) reprinting it here might violate his copyright and (2) according to Snopes.com, the version you quote has picked up a lot of extra material while circulating on the Internet. Snopes gives the transcript of the original commentary (delivered on CBS’s “Sunday Morning” show on December 18, 2005) as well as, separately, the later additions. You can read the whole thing here: www . snopes.com/politics/soapbox/confessions.asp . –Robert]
113- I dunno. Infinity is just so confusing to think about. I mean, there had to have been something at the so called beginning of time. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be here. Of course, if you count to one, that’s time right there. So if time goes on forever into the future, it could go back forever too.
116–Woops! My friend sent it to me in an email, I didn’t even think about that. Thanks for checking!
117- Time couldn’t go back forever–it never could have started.
112–
1. The rules are more complex, if they weren’t we would understand them. And the forces will always just be there. They don’t need a motive to be there.
2. I’m saying there are laws, of course, but they don’t need to exist with a purpose. When you say Everything happens for a reason, you make the argument that all of these laws and actions are leading up to something.
Hmm. I think “reason” is being misused. Let’s define it.
Define.com says:
1: a rational motive for a belief or action; “the reason that war was declared”; “the grounds for their declaration”
2: an explanation of the cause of some phenomenon; “the reason a steady state was never reached was that the back pressure built up too slowly”
3: the capacity for rational thought or inference or discrimination; “we are told that man is endowed with reason and capable of distinguishing good from evil” [syn: {understanding}, {intellect}]
5: a justification for something existing or happening; “he had no cause to complain”; “they had good reason to rejoice” [syn: {cause}, {grounds}]
6: a fact that logically justifies some premise or conclusion; “there is reason to believe he is lying”
Verb
1: decide by reasoning; draw or come to a conclusion; “We reasoned that it was cheaper to rent than to buy a house” [syn: {reason out}, {conclude}]
2: present reasons and arguments [syn: {argue}]
3: think logically; “The children must learn to reason”
So, while two atoms may be attracted to each other due to natural forces, they do not have a motive or a purpose. It’s partly a semantics thing.
3. That’s the lexical definition of cosmos. All.
112- 103-
I said that the laws just are meaning that they do not need a purpose to exist. They do exist because there are physical properties and such, but there does not need to be a motive behind this.
Your main argument is that the forces of nature do not “make sense,” and could only have come about due to a divine force. This is not sound, because your analysis of what “makes sense” is arbitrary. Can you define a system that does make sense?
Evolution: I’m not sure who this comment was directed at.
My quick theory for God was that perhaps the Big Bang triggered en’s evolution.
If you’re talking about life on Earth, there have been numerous experiments showing viability. The Urey-Miller Experiments were the first to show that up to 22 amino acids can be formed from a volcanic “soup” and a lightning strike. Research recently found that artificial RNA can reproduce, and mutate (Gerald Joyce and Tracey Lincoln at the Scripps Research Institute).
119–
What if time is a fabric too, like space, that could be connected in an infinite loop?
115- I disagree. I don’t think all that many scientists think the universe is infinite. In my opinion, space cannot be infinite. It can, however, be edgeless.
Whoops, we’ve slipped from religion to physics.
If I didn’t have to do homework and read books for school, I’d have time to actually learn.
Infinity? o.0 Confuzzling… I agree with Piggy, though. Not infinite, but edgeless.
Wait, what?
Um, okay. Everyone we could talk about this on the science thread (if there was one, I don’t know if there is). Back to religion.
119_Does it have to have started? A sine wave never “starts”, but it exists. Maybe our whole universe is a bunch of sine waves going different directions…
123- Indeed there are:
https://musefanpage.com/blog/?p=871
https://musefanpage.com/blog/?p=1102
https://musefanpage.com/blog/?p=1351
https://musefanpage.com/blog/?p=114
(ranked in order of probable importance)
.52->As long as someone respects god’s “Creationâ€, which is a word i use because I’m not sure what to call it, they will be with God in heaven.
If they don’t believe in God? If they’d rather go to hell than be proven wrong?
88- That makes sense, though. The rules are moral, not religious. Catholicism claims to have morals similar to those MuseBlog claims (not to cast aspersions on either). God doesn’t enter into those rules.
re:Ben Stein
>I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period.
So are the people who don’t believe in God.
>where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren’t allowed to worship God as we understand Him?
Where did your understanding of God come from that you have to impose your values on others? Nobody ever told you to worship Nick and Jessica. People tell me to worship God.
(I dislike all of the coda, but I’ll just choose a few of the instances of points it keeps repeating to refute)
>Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself.
That’s morals. The Bible’s morals are not the problem, in this case. The Bible’s religion is.
You can read the Bible in school, but you can’t teach it. Teaching it is an imposition of its religion. It doesn’t have to be, but it usually is.
Nobody said that you couldn’t teach people to not kill/not steal/follow the Golden Rule.
>Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is through suppressed in the school and workplace.
Lewd/crude/vulgar/obscene articles are suppressed with equal frequency in my school (that is, very little. The way I think it should be.). Public discussion of God happens in cyberspace.
Cyberspace is near-infinitely different than school and the workplace (net neutrality: I am in favor of it) and it’s really a horrible comparison and probably a logical fallacy of some sort, as is this whole argument.
About religion, thinking about some of the things I replied to here.
Where do you think the distinction between morals and religion lies? You can say, “I believe in a God, and he says I should be nice to people, so I will.” Or you can say, “I don’t believe in a God, but it doesn’t hurt anything to be nice to people, so I will.” Or you can say, “I don’t believe in a God, but I think that being nice to people will help create a God from the ambient niceness if everyone does it, so I will.”
Does it change the value of a kind action?
(sorry for the implicit bias in my wording)
Less vague wording: Lewd/crude/vulgar/obscene articles are suppressed with equal frequency in my school as religious articles.
92- Aye, she was. I was trying to go with just those two views on the philosophical foundations of religion, but, here’s her on God:
“God… a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man’s power to conceive.”
121- It’s nice that you think that about what scientists think, thanks for sharing.
86 (Axa)- Reposted, it was a while ago:
If you guys remember from your history classes, the Catholic church wholly disagreed with the idea that the Bible, much less the actual Mass, should be in the congregation’s vernacular. I think that was also why they weren’t big on parish literacy? It (the church) discouraged alternate interpretations that one might come to if you could read the Bible for yourself (or hear it being read) and thus exerted its own influence and so on. That’s why Martin Luther was such a big deal, because he thought people should read the Bible themselves, in their own language, and take services in a language they actually knew.
My commentary on this sort of links up with what Glasseh said about religion controlling masses.
I trust many of you have read Asimov’s Foundation Trilogy? Lovely. Recall the first book? When science was passed off as a religion and used to control people? When not even some of its priests knew exactly what they were doing, because only those in charge of it could know all? Brilliant commentary on religion.
the foundation is strange, isn’t it?
120- The definition of “reason†I’m thinking of:
2: An explanation of the cause of some phenomenon.
The fundamental laws are a phenomenon. Existence is a phenomenon. There is no reasonable explanation for them, except for a divine force.
Sense: The nonexistence of the cosmos would scientifically make sense: if there is no God, what caused the phenomena of existence? What caused time? What caused the forces? What caused the matter that exploded in the big bang?
If everything follows the rule of “cause and effect,†the existence of the cosmos breaks that rule. If everything is caused by something, time, matter, and the forces should not exist.
Evolution: I already know it’s the big bang. But what caused the matter to exist? You can’t make something from nothing.
Time/fabric: Maybe it could. But what caused this infinite loop?
128- Now, what’s all this I hear about “controlling the masses� Is that the evolutionary reason for religion? Jeez, can you people get any more secular?
A few quick notes: (1) It might not affect your argument, but the Big Bang was not an explosion of matter. (2) In quantum physics, some things happen randomly instead of according to strict cause and effect. (3) This GAPA has always thought that describing people as “masses” sounded awfully snobbish — as if the only distinguishing thing about them was their total weight. (4) I’ve heard many people (including MBers) argue that promoting religion makes people better behaved and thus society more peaceful and orderly. Is that different from “using religion to control people”?
131- 1. Okay, not matter. Whatever the stuff is…natural forces can’t make something out of nothing.
2. Hm, you’re right. I guess “something out of nothing†falls under the definition of randomness…wait—why would quantum physics apply to a place where reality doesn’t exist?
130-
You’re arguing that we don’t know how X is explained, so a supernatural force is required. That’s unscientific, as I have said before, the same argument could have been applied to electricity 200 years ago.
I think the general consensus is that religion has evolved because it usually helps a population. It can be a uniting force, and, at its most basic level, teaches followers to be helpful to their neighbors, strengthening the community and therefore the religion. As Robert points out, “controlling the masses†through religion might be a good thing.
“Jeez, can you people get any more secular?”
Is there a problem?
A recurring theme in my world history class is the elite claiming to be closer to the gods, or to be gods, to reinforce their authority and control the masses.
Today was Candlemass, Imbolc, or the feast of light, celebrating St. Bridgit.
It was actually my first celebration of a “Pagan” (not really, it was originally Christian, but hardly any of them celebrate it) holiday. I’m not Pagan or Wiccan, but I thought I would anyway. I’ve been researching and getting in deeper with those types of paths.
So I used this little table thing I have as an alter, draped it with a white cloth to represent purity, and crammed as many candles as possible on top (should I send pictures? I find it really pretty…). Some were unlit (I don’t want to waste all my candles), maybe I lit about five in total out of thirteen. Also I placed a wooden insence burner thing, a red box topped with sparkly looking stones, a Dream Catcher in one of the lamp’s shades, and a green, pentagrammed candle holder with tumbled rocks in it. I sprinkled dried rose petals around the center candle (purple in a REALLY SWEET candle plate, it’s like the ocean…). A green pentagram I made out of popsicle sticks (hey, I only have so much money) was hung above the atler.
I “camped out” with my blankets and pillows by the two candles I left burning. It was actually really cool, with the lights out and everything.
It was a double ritiual. The other purpose was a Reconnection ritual. I’ve been drifting with one of my close friends who I would die without. I lit the purple center candle, lavender scent (her favorite color and scent) with the rose petals to represent passion, and a white Spirit candle to represent the recconection of both our spirits. I said a prayer I had made up (DIY is essenshul in Pagan faith) and [tried to] meditated. I placed a shirt and candle she had given me near the alter, along with the program of the play we met in.
Dad came in halfway through to give me Macbeth, which was seriously distracting and probably put bad energy in the air. So I called the person and we tried to reenergize the air positively. She did her own little ritual (two earrings I had given her on a candle I had given her, lit with a prayer) and we both wrote our [first] entry in our Book of Shadows. Exciting isn’t the word, but it’s the best I’ve got.
Then at twelve (the first hour of Candlemass) I lit another candle for St. Bridgit, held it for ten minutes, blew it out and went to sleep. I kept everything in place until the morning. Today I wore the shirt I kept by the alter.
It was a really great experience, I hope to have more like it, and I’m excited about talking to friends from my local Metaphysical shop on the 7th (they’re hosting a musical event for St. Bridgit) about it.
131-SFTDP, but I had to answer your fourth question. Yes, it’s different. Religion creates a reason for people to control themselves, if it’s a good religion, imho. Perhaps Christianity gives reason for “the masses” (yeah, I hate that phrase too) to behave in what Christianity believes as moral and right, but it certainly dosn’t force it’s laws upon anyone, in a place where there’s seperation between church and state. If you want to follow this set of rules, as long as they agree with the set of rules set up by the government, great. You don’t have to, which is a great thing about the U.S. Again, promoting religion dosn’t “make” anyone do anything, it gives them reason to discipline themselves.
Our Christmas program is on Thursday.
Long story… Our school isn’t very good at planning events, let’s just say…
(all I have to contribute to religions right now)
135–An interesting idea. But do you really need spirit candles or “good energy’ to mend a relationship? Or is it the ritual that draws you closer, since you’re both participating in something you both find meaningful?
Just curious, not trying to take away from the meaning of the idea.
133–But is religion a purely manmade idea? I know everyone has different views on this, obviously, but I feel like we didn’t so much “invent” religion as have it brought to us, or perhaps discovered it as something that already existed. Or maybe mankind built religion around the basic tenets/commandments of a deity? Just an idea.
137–Ha ha, Christmas is good any time of the year.
138-Both. Doing a ritual is like a more complicated version of praying for a better relationship. Some people are content with just hoping in the back of their mind, some pray for specific things at bedtime, and some go to mass with candles and song. Since there aren’t any big covens near me, I have to do my own stuff. It’s probably better that way anyways, one of the things I like about Pagan paths are that they are so felxible, personalized, and a symbol means what it means because YOU say so, not because of a set of rules.
And good energy is almost always needed. You can’t really do much with a pessimistic view. It’s like trying to take a test when you’re in a bad mood, you might mess up because you’re mind is too clouded with negative thoughts. But when you’re in a good mood, the chances you’ll breeze right through it is greater.
Well, I’ve converted from Non-Practicing Believer of Subwayism to Shinto.
It’s actually really nice, taking time out of each day to pray. It all started when Scientific American had an article about extinctivism. I realized I wasn’t an extinctivist and that I’d never seriously considered death or taken time to decide what I believe about it. Death has always just been kind of… there. And so, I looked into religion and found Shinto. We don’t believe exactly in higher powers of gods and goddesses… rather, there are kami, spirits of nature and old ancestors all around us. I don’t go with the ancestor stuff, as I can’t keep track of a family tree for nuts, but the other kami… I dunno. It works for me.
YAY SHINTOISM!
And I think it’s just awful, you know, that incident with the bishop denying the holocaust. What a shame, really.
Sorry I haven’t been on in so long. The reason I asked the question was this;
If someone handed you chocolate, you’d say thank you, right?
But you didn’t ask what kind of things were in the chocolate, why it was made, etc, etc. So why do you do that with God? You are letting your limited human minds bind your perspective. Stop analyzing and just take it. There IS God. This is THE Bible. If we overanalyze these things, we aren’t ever going to get over our misconceptions, stereotypes, and judgements. Do with that as you will.
Funny T-Shirt I saw Today.
Religions.
Taoism: **** happens.
Hinduism: **** happened before.
Hare Krishna: **** happens rama rama ding dong.
Zen Buddhism: What is the sound of **** happening?
Islam: **** will happen, Allah willing.
Jehovah’s Witness: Knock Knock. **** Happens.
Catholicism: If **** happens, I probably deserve it.
Protestantism: If **** happens, I´m not working hard enough.
Unitarianism: What is this ****?
Judaism: Why does this **** always happen to me?
Atheism: **** doesn’t happen.
Agnosticism: Maybe **** happens, but maybe it doesnt.
Televangelism: Send me your money or **** will happen!!!!
Eastern Orthodox: **** συμβαίνει
Rastafarianism: Lets smoke this ****.
Wow. I haven’t been on this thread in ages.
I’ve seen that one before, but it still makes me laugh.
143-
No religious stuff to discuss right now. Goodbye.
143-I love it.
The Wiccan Rede, which I think makes things a lot simpler: An it harm none, do what thou wilt.
How easy is that?
142- It depends on a lot of things.
Some people, if they just handed me chocolate, I wouldn’t trust it.
In general, though, I would accept graciously, because it is part of my beliefs that people are fundamentally good and it isn’t poisoned.
That isn’t about God.
To continue your simile-
Someone tells me that there will be delicious chocolate, but says that if I want to eat it, I have to follow random, outdated rules. Several of which I disagree with, after being handed a thick manual and told to read it and obey mindlessly. All around me, people encourage me that the chocolate will be there, and show how they follow the rules by doing things I think are wrong and contradictory. At this point, the chocolate, if it even exists (which I doubt, having no evidence for it), isn’t worth it.
>If we overanalyze these things, we aren’t ever going to get over our misconceptions, stereotypes, and judgements.
I think that if it falls apart when you analyze it, then it shouldn’t be believed as truth. That people shouldn’t die, or come into being, because of it.
145- I like the Wiccan Rede.
142~
All seeing, all powerful being ≠small (tasty) confectionery.
“You are letting your limited human minds bind your perspective.”
That sounds a bit condescending. If anything, I would say that you have the limited perspective, for blindly accepting a single theory.
What if I said “Stop analyzing and just take it. There IS God. This is THE Avesta.” ?
Would you take that book and follow it?
“Stop analyzing and just take it.”
“…you’d say thank you, right?“
93-98- So what you’re saying is that science is a way of making sense of things for atheists.
148- I’m saying that science is how things work,
why cannot be answered by science. Religion fills this gap.
IBCF was saying that because science cannot answer why, God must exist. I disagree, and feel that there may not need to be a purpose.
I wouldn’t say that “science is a way of making sense of things for atheists,” but most atheists do turn to science for how. Just as plenty of other religious people do.
140 — Shintoism is indeed very interesting. I’ve always liked the profound respect and love of nature that’s woven into it. Every rock and tree is a sacred thing.
Hello there! Orthodox Jew here. Orthodox Jew with many scientist people in the family, and me looking at a career in some type of science. I have to agree with Vendaval, science is how, not why. What I have been taught, and agree with, is that God made a world. Say hello, world! This world functions according to certain laws. These laws are the science part of things. Scientists cannot answer the questions: why do they happen that way, or where did the raw materials come from, or why the same laws of physics apply everywhere, or why there are laws there in the first place. This is the religion aspect. Many scientists admit that there must be an intelligent design behind the universe, because there is no other explanation for why the world runs so smoothly.
Who was it that once said “There are no atheists in the foxholes”? Whoever it was was a genius. Every person has a need, deep down inside, to believe in some higher power to rest their problems on. I’m not sure if anyone here has claimed to be an atheist, but I was just curious, how much do you actually know about religion? Another great person said, “You cannot disbelieve something you do not know of.”
151-
“Many scientists admit that there must be an intelligent design behind the universe, because there is no other explanation for why the world runs so smoothly.”
I’m not sure I believe this, scientist are in the business of finding explanations, even when they are not clear.
Every person has a need, deep down inside, to believe in some higher power to rest their problems on.
Many propose that this need is a product of evolution. Socially, religion is a meme that survives, as proven by computer simulation. Biologically, the belief in a higher power may keep us in a more cohesive social unit.
I’m not sure if anyone here has claimed to be an atheist, but I was just curious, how much do you actually know about religion?
Glasseh has read the bible, he’ll hopefully be coming by with some insight.
How can you can believe something you do not know of?
Many propose that this need is a product of evolution. Socially, religion is a meme that survives, as proven by computer simulation. Biologically, the belief in a higher power may keep us in a more cohesive social unit.
Exactly!
“There are no atheists in the foxholesâ€
Which basically proves the above. Religion is a defense mechanism. If you are in a life threatening situation in which you have no apparent control over what does or does not happen, it is a natural response to call on a higher power to see you through it. There is a need— and it is just that, a need to believe. How soothing it is a think that there is someone always watching out for you, that when you yourself can do nothing someone is working on it. The concept of “God’s plan” removes a person from the crushing idea that they are adrift in a transient sea of action and happenstance. It makes sense of insensate action in our lives. The tenets of most religions try to steer their followers towards a path of goodness, kindness, sensibility and so on.
Human beings crave structure, and religion offers that.
When the Israelites went into Canaan, they didn’t force everyone to be Jewish. They gave them a choice of following these seven laws:
Don’t kill.
Don’t steal.
Don’t commit adultery.
Don’t eat stuff you chopped off a living animal.
Don’t just punish people randomly-have laws.
Don’t blaspheme God
Don’t serve idols.
I admit that the last two are a little iffy, but the laws are not trying to convert them, so why are we? God can’t be proven. Anyway, religion must be a made-up thing, because there’s more than one religion.
Believe what you want to believe.
*randomly appears*
149- I was talking about a “how”– “How” did creation spring from nothing? As I said before, you can’t make something out of nothing, can you?
See y’all in spring break. *vanishes (and definitely won’t return this time)*
155-“How did creation spring from nothing?”
Um…the wording of that sentence assumed that there was creation by God.
I’m not weighing in on theological arguments, but physicists think that somethings are being created from nothings all the time:
http :// en . wikipedia . org/wiki/Virtual_particle
157- Well, some physicists do. My friend, who, though only a sophomore, is spectacular at physics, has created a whole new TOE, and has been discussing it with people who apparently despise the very concept of virtual particles. Our discussions at lunch get rather technical sometimes. *realises complete lack of germane qualities of his points to this conversation* *scurries away*
.151-
>I’m not sure if anyone here has claimed to be an atheist, but I was just curious, how much do you actually know about religion? Another great person said, “You cannot disbelieve something you do not know of.â€
I am an atheist. My mother is Jewish and my father is Christian. I went to Hebrew school between the ages of four and twelve and CCD (Christian school? People don’t use that term…) between the ages of four and thirteen (although the last two years were about three times a year). For reference, those were once a week during the school year, they started when I was in kindergarten, and I’m fifteen now.
From the schools, I learned a few stories about God from both the Old Testament/Torah and New Testament of the Bible, the way the Hebrew letters look, the prayers before eating and before lighting candles, when and why to light candles or fast, a few creeds, the symbolism behind a bunch of things in the church, and how you are supposed to act to people. They also tried to impart what positions you are supposed to take on controversial topics, and that only their God(s) and specific variants were right. That part didn’t work.
(personal story which is long and rambling begins here because I am procrastinating. sorry about that. maybe someone will find it interesting. tl;dr: I am an atheist because I learned about religion from the religious and chose to reject it for my own worldview.)
I am an atheist because Christianity and Judaism both claim that they are the only true religion. My mother said that she thought that Jesus was just a prophet, and I believed that when I was little, to reconcile everything. Then, at Hebrew school shortly before I was going to get my bat mitzvah and leave anyway (age:11), they told us that it was important that we marry a Jew and continue the tribe. They took me aside and said there wasn’t anything wrong with my parents, but that didn’t change that their advice was right. I thought that this was wrong. I began to wonder about religion a little. My CCD class mostly taught basic things about the sacraments and a little history, not as much what I should believe as recitation. I didn’t think about it. As well, when middle school started, I switched to another church so I would have CCD events over the summer and every few months instead of at the same time as an after-school chorus I was in. I spent a few years quietly doubting and fulfilling the requirements to be confirmed to please my grandmother, but not going to church except on holidays. (reference point: It is the summer of 2006 and I am twelve. penguini and I are at a camp with computers and she shows me MuseBlog. Later that week, at home, I begin posting here. This is mentioned because MuseBlog was the first website I really had any reason to spend time on. Because of it, I began using the computer more, exposing me to new ideas and references. This is relevant because I’ve spent way too much time on Wikipedia reading about differences in religion and philosophy.) When I am thirteen, in late 2006/early 2007, there is a meeting for those in the CCD program. By this time, I follow the Green Cow religion, a fictional one ruled by penguins (this was *before* the penguin craze), because I feel it makes as much sense as anything else I’ve been told to believe and I have more control over a religion I make up. If I were asked in a serious context, though, I’d probably default to Christianity or uncertainty. At the meeting, they explain that the rules have changed and that you now have to be in ninth grade to be confirmed (which does not affect me as I would’ve done so in ninth grade anyway). They hand out fliers about an anti-abortion protest in DC during a school day, explain why it is a good thing to go. I have heard of abortion. I think that it is a good thing and that life begins significantly after conception. This makes me angry. After some research, I switch my focus to general agnosticism and penguin-worship. I am not confirmed, but for unrelated reasons.
In 2008, I do two school projects which change this. The first is an author report on Kurt Vonnegut. Vonnegut was a secular humanist, and I read that he took over as head of an organization of these people after Asimov, who I also adore, died. I read about secular humanism and it sounds generally right. But I’m not sure. The second comes in history. We’ve spent several months on the different religions and philosophies of the ancient world as we learn about everything else from their cultures. I consider several of these and find them more or less true, but none exactly right. For example, the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism seem very poetic, very nice, but I *like* selfish desire and don’t think there’s reincarnation as much as I would appreciate nothingness eventually. I learn a lot. As a semester project, we have to do the research for a paper about any topic we’ve mentioned at all during the year. I choose secularization in Turkey, because I find it wonderfully ironic that Ataturk forced the country to be secular and not to be religious. One of the articles I use is written by someone prominent in the International Humanist Society. I find him on the same website as the one from the other report, and I read it, and these things sound right. They mention a lack of belief in a higher power, and I realize that I don’t really think there is a god, and people just want to think there is one to make themselves feel better. I begin to self-identify as an atheist at this point.
159 — If you have not read Cat’s Cradle by Vonnegut yet, I would recommend you do so. Bokononism is highly appealing.
a double post, but also: your post was very interesting. I am puzzling over how to respond to it (positively) but I’m not quite sure yet. In any case I have had (somewhat) similar experiences.
(160)
Tiger got to hunt,
Bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder, “Why, why, why?”
Tiger got to sleep,
Bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.
—The Books of Bokonon
162- Oh RObert, how you read my mind, I just had that running though my head all last week. I needneedneed more Vonnegut also I cannot find my copy of Slaughterhouse V D:
I came onher with something specific to say but I have to leave the house right now, so I will say it later.
160- I love Cat’s Cradle, it was the first Vonnegut book I read. I need to get my own copy… Bokononism has too much predestination in it, though, if I remember correctly. If I could read the Books of Bokonon directly it’d be nice too, just to compare.
I read a good book called Poison and I realized you could totally make a new religon out of it. Hierophantism. Ask about it if you want to know what it would be like.
165- Randomosity101! Here you are! Did you find the neophytes thread?
Okay, what would it be like?
162) I nearly posted that!
164) Perhaps, but I just love the story about mud sitting up and looking around. If you search Books of Bokonon you can find them in one place.
I invented a new religion. It doesn’t have a name yet, though. (And it’s not supposed to be funny, okay???)
In the back of the mind of every person, the is an Author, of sorts. The Author writes the person’s life, their adventures, their losses, everything. When the person dies, the Author goes to Publishers (which kind of rule everything in the universe. They do not rule over what happens to the universe, though. They just watch.), and the Publishers put them into another person. (For notes on overpopulation, see paragraph four.) Every person has an Author. The Author does not rule the person’s personality, though. The person develops that, although the Author might give little boosts to it now and then.
STARS
When a person goes to sleep, most of the Author flies up and becomes a star, visiting with Authors they met in past lives, which create constellations. The brightness of a star is determined by how much of the Author is there. Sometimes, the Author has more of themselves in the person’s mind, and that creates vivid dreams and duller stars.
ILLUSTRATORS
The Author part is in the back of your right brain. In the back of the left brain, though, there is an illustrator. The Illustrator determines how good the person is at drawing, acting, music, singing dances, and/or other creative aspects. When a person is exceptionally good at these things, the person’s Illustrator and Author have become one.
DEATH
If a person’s personality is very complex, they are taken to a Publisher when they die and become an Author. When an Author finishes it’s 1000th life, it flies up and becomes a permanent star.
SCIENCE
Publishers evolved along the evolutional path like, birds, trees, and humans did. Publishers are only half there. Science si real, for the Publishers did not create everything. They merely appeared along with it.
RITES
To be a participant of this religion, all you have to do is occasionally look at the stars and think about it, but not too often. It doesn’t matter if you actually belive in it; you just have to think about it ever so often.
Ta da!
Very nice, Zinc.
168- That’s good! I might actually start believing in that.
159- So, you went to Hebrew school and CCD, yet you are an atheist. You, my friend, may actually have the right to call yourself one. Maybe.
You see, I take issue with the fact that you are ‘an atheist because Christianity and Judaism both claim that they are the only true religion.’ It is impossible for both to be the only true religion, this is true, but rather than asking ‘so which one is it?’ you said ‘Nah, I know they’re both lying.’ It’s amazing how, at the tender age of fifteen, you know so much that you can completely brush off two ancient religions. Well, Judaism is older, but whatever.
I am also only fifteen, but have attended Orthodox Jewish schools for twelve years, every day, from 8:30 to, in high school, 5:00. I pray everyday, learn the bible in its original hebrew, as well as other books from the Tanach, and learn Jewish laws and customs. (Tanach is, in hebrew, an abbreviation for Torah, Nevi’im, and Kisuvim- Torah, Prophets, and writings.) So I believe I know more than you about Judaism, no offense intended.
I haven’t been brainwashed, nor completely sheltered, and I have done some research. What about you? Did you look into it at all, or just give up because you didn’t like the little bit you were actually taught?
There is no doubt in my mind that Judaism is true, because I have thought about it, asked questions, and came up with very satisfactory answers. No, I am not attempting to convert ANYONE, but Judaism does make sense. I can attempt to answer questions, but bear in mind, I’m fifteen, and not a rabbi.
I’m not really sure if this post makes much sense, but I did my best. I hope I didn’t offend anyone.
169: Tank you.
170: Yes, it’s very little effort. And if you follow it, you can’t offend someone by replying atheist or agnostic when they ask you what religion you are.
Aha! I have a name! Pennism!
171-
“It’s amazing how, at the tender age of fifteen, you know so much that you can completely brush off two ancient religions.”
Besides being so condescending, you make one one point that does emphatically not agree with me. It seems that you imply the age of the religions makes them truer. (Or that’s how you solve the issue of many religions claiming to be The One religion.)
Does age make things true?
If so, then animistic beliefs must be most true, as they predate organized religion by thousands of years.
It sounds to me like Dodecahedron was taught much more than a “little bit,” that’s 9 years of religious learning. Also, it sounds to me like she’s a secular humanist, not an atheist.
Oh, great. Another argument. Can’t this thread stay peaceful for more than one hour?
171 – Wow, thanks. You know, that’s quite rude, considering I pondered my decision for quite some time. I’m 12, and you seem condescending and high-and-mighty, acting like I should believe this religion just ’cause it’s older and truer… *grumbles*
174 – I know. But, really, this is such an inflammatory topic…
171- Dodecahedron’s rejection of religion is no less valid than your acceptance of it at the same age. When you trivialize another’s experience they will in turn fail to take you seriously. If you really want to engage in a conversation, drop the condescension.
This goes for everyone, really. I don’t care what religion you are or are not.
175: And I have been a participant. Sometimes, when I feel carpy, I attack the religion we’re studying in Social Studies. Then I think about it, and erase it.
I need to create a Bible of some sorts for Pennism.
Beavo’s opinion time: Really, guys, if somebody says they’re an athiest, they probably are. You can’t tell them that they actually do beleive in God if they just said that they didn’t. I haven’t looked into a lot of religions deeply, or read more than a quarter of the bible, or even studied Judism, but if I don’t beleive in God, I don’t believe in him. Maybe that can be changed, but somebody who say’s their an athiest PROBABLY ISN’T LYING OR MISTAKEN.
I can’t believe I’m letting myself be dragged into this subject, but…..I really rather have to agree with Beavo. If a person says they are an atheist, there is really no reason to doubt them based upon their age or their experience. A person doesn’t have to have a solid grounding in religion to be able to formulate an opinion on the existence of a higher power. Perhaps if they had a solid grounding they might feel more strongly in their belief that their is no god, and be less easily convinced that their is one, but they can still possess an opinion.
I myself have very little religious grounding. I have not read more than maybe half a dozen pages of the bible. If I were to average every time I’ve attended church over my entire 18 (let’s make that 19, as that’s closer) years, it would probably average out to a couple times a year–max. And the times I have attended are not out of any sort of faith: They were either a) when I was in choir and we were performing at a church service (typically epiphany services), b) on a choir tour and attendance was mandatory (our director was religious, we were not allowed to skip out), and c) when my sister was performing at Christmas Eve services at her church (last two to three years, only) and I desired to watch her.
As a side note, the most boring church serivce I have ever been to was probably the one at St. Paul’s Cathedral, London. Beliefs aside, services where there is some form of audience participation makes for a much more enjoyable service, then sitting for over an hour listening to a choir singing in what was either latin or unintelligible english. Especially when you were so exhausted sitting for any length of time, no matter how short, sent you straight to sleep–and I was trying, desperately, to be respectful and stay awake. And the benches were so HARD–and yet I was so tired I was still falling asleep, despite the horrid discomfort of the seats.
Most of my younger years, through about 10 or so, I really never put any thought whatsoever into religion. If someone were to ask, I probably would have told them I were Christian, although I did not go to church. Later, I developed a small interest in religion, talked to my sister who was more into it, and basically the extent of my religion was saying prayers every night before I went to bed. However, I was never particularly strong in this belief. I accepted that there could be a god, and on the safe side I said prayers, and tried to be a relatively decent person–just in case. I suppose you could say I was something of an agnostic, although I think I was slightly more than that.
To be honest, the reason that, at the “tender age of fifteen” (yes, I found that insulting, as well–age is irrelevant) I became convinced that there was no god, or at the very elast if their was, he was a sadistic cruel bastard was the death of my dog. Yes, I do realize how petty and selfish and stupid that sounds. Be that as it may, that was the turning point in my view of religion. The night we came home to find our dog hanging by her back legs from the back porch (the porch had a railing supported by slats, about a foot or so apart, she was hanging upside down, her hips having caught when she was trying to escape) we brought her to the vets. At the time I had a cold, and when I went to be dthat night, I was taking Nyquill (which tends to put me to sleep). That entire night, not just when I was awake, but when I was asleep in the drug induced slumber, I was chanting two things over and over again: Please don’t let her die, God, please don’t let her die.” And “You’re gonna be okay, Amy, you’re gonna be okay.” All night I prayed to god begging him to let her make it through, and I assured Amy, despite her being two miles away at the vets that she was going to survive. Obviously, she didn’t. Given that Christian (and many monotheistic religions) hold that god is all knowing, all loving, and all powerful, I held god as personally responsible. For the longest time I hated him, until finally I realized: a) if their is a god, he is a cruel sadistic bastard who doesn’t care a bit about anyone so it is a waste of energy to hate him, and b) more likely, there is no god. Again, a side note: This is also why Thanksgiving ranks low on my list of enjoyable holidays, and I despise the fourth Potter movie. The fourth potter movie was where we were at the time, and the day of her death was the Sunday before Thanksgiving, 2005.
I mean, just look at the world. If there is a god, and he were the all loving all power all knowing god of christian religion, their would not be all the pain and suffering that exists in this world. There wouldnot be rapist, murderers, and pedophiles running aroound killing and injuring innocents. In car accidents, it would not be the sober driver, who did nothing wrong that died, but rather the drunk jerk who was in the wrong. There would not be senseless killing. There would not be people launching holy wars against each other because only there religion and there religion alone is correct. If there is a god, the god that is worshipped by Buddhists, christians, Jews, etc is ONE AND THE SAME. They all just have different ways of worshippping the same entity (who may or may not even exist). That does not make one mroe right than the other, it just makes them different. If there were an all loving god, he would not allow his people to kill each other off over such pointless things.
This just serves, in my mind, to prove that if a god exists, he is not all loving, but rather cruel and sadisitic.
Actually, half the time I doubt there even IS a god, either a good one or a sadistic one. I have yet to see any evidence of the existence of a divine power.
I’m not trying to put down anyone’s religion. You are all entitled to your beliefs, whether I agree or not. You belive that god is good and loving. Fine, that is your right, your choice, your opinion. I respect that. Likewise, my views as well as those of others who differ, those who are atheist should be respected. Do not demean our beliefs by saying that we do not ahve enough background in religion to formulate these opinions. That owuld be no different than my walking up to a person of the Christian faith, of the “tendera ge of 15” and telling them that they are not old enough, have not had enough background to be Christian. They can’t possibly know their own opinion on the subject because of their age and experience. It’s NO DIFFERENT.
And I apologize, to MBers and GAPAs alike if this came across as offensive. That was not intended. I am merely trying to express that just because a person who says they are atheist does not have significant religious “training” or background does not make their beliefs any less valid. It might make it easier for us to be swayed to a different viewpoint, if we have less background, but it doesn’t mean we are wrong or mistaken in our current one.
SFTDP–oh dear, I’m sorry GAPAs and MBers–I didn’t realize quite how long that post was. There’s something wrong when it doesn’t even fit on the screen it’s so long. eep. ‘pologies.
Luna: There’s no length limit for posts. Some points take longer to make than others do.
181–Oh, I know there’s not an actual limit, but still….there is such a thing as being too long-winded (guilty) and there is just something daunting about such a long post.
Luna: I used to agree with you on that, maybe last year. A whole bunch of events caused me to think about the world as a whole, and how much everything sucks, not just petty suckage with my life but AIDS and dying kids and rapists or whatever. I guess I believe in God, but I think the question “What is God?” is more relevant. Once I figure out what God is, then maybe I can see whether he exists or not. As of now, I believe in A God, I’m just not sure whose. Not the God who “wrote” the BIble or the Torah, not Allah, not the Goddess and Horned God, or Ra. My God is kind of nice. As long as you’re a generally good person, you’ll be accepted by him. Why is there so much suffering? IDK, I doubt I ever will. Who knows? But on the other hand, if God was cruel and sadistic, why is there so much love? (There is a lot, you know, even though it may not seem like it.)
I just can’t believe that the sequence of events that brought the Universe together and causes love is random, or explained in complete by science. I’ll respect most [humane, not completely crazy, ahem, Fred Phelps] beleifs, but mine are a tossup.
178,179- I dunno. It just seems like most of the time they flip-flop over whether there is a god or not.
184 – …what? I believe you are mistaken.
184– No, no, there’s another name for that- agnostic.
I didn’t mean to offend anyone, but come on. No one, especially not a fifteen year old, can be expected to know enough to decide that God does not exist. Also, as to the 9 years of schooling, I was under the impression that Dodecahedron only went to the religious schools rarely. I’m sorry if I was mistaken.
Yeah, the age of the religion does matter, in a way. If an old religion was false, don’t you think someone might have said something before you came along?
For the record, I don’t think Buddhists actually have a God, per se, but yes, the God of most monotheistic religions is the same – being?
I really didn’t mean any offense, I think I already said so, but I really didn’t. It just happens to be that religion is very much a matter of the heart, as well as the brain, and the heart is a very confusing place to speak from.
So, anyway, there are many things I’d like to say in response to some of the statements here, but I won’t because it will serve no purpose other than to make me frustrated and others angry. A thread like this seems rather pointless, seeing as no one is planning on changing their minds (not that that’s a bad thing!), and all it’s causing is arguments. What exactly is the purpose of this thread, exactly?
A pleasant day to you all, I don’t believe I’ll be back.
(187) CQC: The purpose of this thread is to discuss religion and religions. That doesn’t seem pointless to me, even if nobody here ever converts anyone else to ens own religion (or religionlessness), whatever it might be.
It’s interesting to me that the religion threads so often cause hurt feelings. There’s so much prickliness and defensiveness, and relatively little curiosity, goodwill, and mutual support. It’s as if, in this one arena, everybody has to score points off one another and is ready to quit the game at any time. I wonder why that is.
187–crazyquotescollector–but my point is this: If, as you say, “No one, especially a fifteen year old, can be expected to know enough to decide that God does not exist”, it stands to reasont hat the reverse is true as well. No one can be expected to know enough to decide that God does exist. If a person, of whatever age can know enough to decide god does exist, en can know enough to decide he doesn’t. Either individual may be right, and the other wrong, but if it isn’t possible to know enough to decide that a divine power does NOT exist, neither is it possible to truly know enough to decide one does exist. They are opposite sides of the same coin.
Thus, if you believe that a person can have decided they are Christian/Jewish/Buddhist/what have you, then, likewise, you should be able to accept that another has decided they do not believe. By know means do you have to agree with them in their view, but I do not think it in the least unreasonable to believe them when they assert that they do not believe in the existence of a God.
As far as your comment: “Yeah, the age of the religion does matter, in a way. If an old religion was false, don’t you think someone might have said something before you came along?”
People have expressed differing views against every religion, for years–I”m sure that when the very first formings of Christianity or Judaism were occurring, there were people who argued against them; people who held that they were false, and in all the years since, people have continued to believe them false for one reason or another. It is my understanding (perhaps false), that the Jewish religion thinks many aspects of the Christian religion to be false: such as Jesus and the New Testament. But, following your statement, Christianity is an old religion, and thus it must be more true than others, or else people would have spoke out against it prior to now. But people have spoken out against it, have since it first became a religion. I doubt there is a single religion that remains unchallenged, by at least a handful of people–if not more. So, honestly, I don’t think that is a very good argument: people have spoken out against every religion, no matter how ancient, proclaiming it false.
188–Robert: I have an answer to it, although likely an answer that would just serve to cause more defensiveness. It’s interesting to me that the religion threads so often cause hurt feelings. There’s so much prickliness and defensiveness, and relatively little curiosity, goodwill, and mutual support. It’s as if, in this one arena, everybody has to score points off one another and is ready to quit the game at any time. I wonder why that is.
A large number of those who post on this thread are probably very “set” in their religion: They think that their religion, and only their religion is correct and accurate. Thus, when someone with a different religion challenges (no matter how respectfully) that individuals views, said individual goes on the defensive. Also, partly, they probably see the logic in the viewpoint of the other, which threatens to disrupt their “world.” They don’t want to here a logical reason for why something they have believe for so long might not be true, as it disrupts what they’ve always held true, and threatens to overturn their entire way of thinking.
In my opinion, those less set in their religion, those who are agnostic or wavering between one religionb or another, are more likely to be receptive to discussing various religions, because they don’t have such an ingrained view, and so will not be offended by conflicting viewpoints, as they are not so firmly set in a particular set of beliefs.
Back to CQC, for a moment. I can see at least one issue with Christianity. Setting aside for a moment the issue of whether a divine power exists (I’m feeling more agnostic, today, btw, and in the mood to concede the possibility of such an existence), let’s look at the Bible. According to Christianity, unless I am mistaken, the bible is supposed to be the word of God. he is supposed to have spoken to/through people, who transcribed his words/will onto paper, which comprises all the sections of the Bible. I disagree with this notion.
There may be a God, there may not. He may speak to us mere mortals, he may not. But he did not dictate the Bible–it is nothing more nor less than the words of people. Perhaps wise and good people, perhaps containing good morals and good values and good teachings. But it is not the word of some divine power.
For starters, just look at the factual errors alone, that lend credence to this view. For instance, the age of the EArth. I don’t remember how long biblical teaching hold it to be, but I do know that it has be proven to be significantly older than the Bible says. Not only this, but humans did not come to inhabit Earth until long after it’s formation: we are very young in comparision to the EArth and other organisms inhabiting it. Yet, according to the Bible, everything was formed in seven days.
1: light
2: liquid water
3: dry land
4: sun/moon/stars to serve as seasons or some such thing (sorry, getting this from some website, 4 was confuzzling)
5: birds and sea creatures
6: land animals/man
7: nothing
I could, perhaps go with this, except I take issue with days. There is significant evidence to show that the formation of the earth and life took MANY years than there is to suggest it only took days. Back when I was more opento religion, I was willing to concede that perhaps days were not being defined int he mdoern sense of 24 hrs.
So, even if days were not days, this timeline still does not work. Oh, it’s much improved, but it still isn’t not fully accurate. It would, perhaps, be accurate based upon the inforamtion available at the time this portion of the Bible was written, and accurate based upon the knowledge of the individual who authored it, but that only suggests again that the Bible is not a divine work, just a compilation of writings of people.
I can go with light starting first, if I remember by evolution correctly, and all that, we had to ahve a sun before earth could ahve formed. Then eveyrthing smashed together and formed a solid sphere, and it was definitley mostly liquid to begin with. However, I do think there was some life (such as prokaryotic single celled life) prior to the significant formation of dry land. Anyways, things evolve into plants and such, the first animals are aquatic, and then eventually land animals begin to evolve from the aquatic animals. For instance, dinosaurs come about, and from the dinosaurs, come the birds. There is a large amount of evidence to support the idea that birds are descended from dinosaurs, the Archaeopteryx is merely one example. If I remember correctly, reptiles predate mammals of all sorts, and I think birds may as well. Anyway, mammals developed, and eventually humans as well. None of this, none of this took place in only a day, and even the order that things supposedly came about is off. If there is a divine power, and he (yes, it would be a he, no female would curse those of her own sex with menstruation–only a male) authored, by proxy, the bible, then I do think he would at the very least get the order of events right.
Now, again, I’m not saying there are plenty of decent morals and other things to be learned from the Bible, but I do not think it is written through people by god. I think it is just a book written by regular, if perhaps scholarly, people. And as the bible is so very central to Christian religion, this suggests a very major flaw to begin with. That’s not to say that everything Christian’s believe is wrong, or even, necessarily, tha tno God exists, but when a central concept of a religion is proved false (which to me, this is), it rather leaves the religion without a leg to stand on.
Anyways, I’ve rather forgotten where I’m going with this, but I think mayhap I was trying to point out that Christianity despite its age, has its flaws and is by no means 100% correct, and many aspects of it are false. Which I think I was trying to say means that a person can not believe it, and be atheist, without having a lot of grounding, but like I said, I forgot where I was taking the whole thing, so my apologies if it is rather confusing. I am confused. And I wrote it.
On a semi related note, I do not think religion and evolution are exclusionary. I do think it rather unreasonable to deny evolution, as there is a preponderance of evidence on its side, and significantly less on that of religion. (I must say, I am recalling that lovely article in Muse–I think ’twas Muse–on how the whole parting of the waters thingy in the Bile was merely a mirage, it only looked like there was water, and only looked like it was parted.) If there is a God, I think perhaps he would have caused the first event that set evolution in motion, perhaps even guided a bit, but I do not think that, even if there is a god, that things were merely created. there is too much suggesting a slow succession of organisms, and changes n th existing organims, for evolution not to have occurred.
Anyways, sorry, again for what I believe is probably a long post……..And CQC, I don’t htink anyone has a problem with you responding to statements that have been made as long as it is done with respect. I think the main reason people, such as myself, took any sort of offense is because the way you made your comment to Dodecahedron was very condescending, and no one likes to have it implied that their beliefs are any less valid because of the age of said individual or their backgrounds. I think people would have been a lot less bothered if your comments had been worded differently, so that they were respectful. It is possible, although I won’t claim to be any good at it, to phrase things in a way that you express your disagreement and opposing beliefs and opinions without saying or implying that another has no evidence with which to base their opinion. Often times, perhaps, said individual has no leg to stand on, but it will gain no points in a debate to say so and be consdescending; you win more flies with honey than vinegar (alhtough why you would want any flies, I dunno
).
171-
> It is impossible for both to be the only true religion, this is true, but rather than asking ’so which one is it?’ you said ‘Nah, I know they’re both lying.’
For a long while, I thought, “Maybe they’re just wrong in one or two details but they mean well.” But then they tried to tell us more details and I didn’t like those either, or really most of them. My current opinion is “I can make up things that are as good as this and it’s less bother than trying to fit in with the parts I don’t like.” I think they’re lying, but I’m just being contrary.
>So I believe I know more than you about Judaism, no offense intended.
of course so, I never meant to imply that I was an expert. I’ve forgotten a lot, too. I defer to your experience.
>Did you look into it at all, or just give up because you didn’t like the little bit you were actually taught?
I didn’t make much of an effort to keep Judaism, but by then I was finding out about religions I preferred that didn’t have parts that reminded me of bad times at Hebrew school.
173- actually, secular humanism is more of a philosophy that goes hand-in-hand with atheism as a religion/lack thereof. I am technically both a secular humanist and an atheist.
Actually, in another technicality, I’m only about 90% sure there isn’t a god, and that’s random guesswork, so really it’s agnosticism, but atheism implies a certain surety of belief that I like.
187-
(I wrote the first two responses before Luna’s post; I leave them in because hopefully my post is less daunting in scale than hers, while making the same points)
> No one, especially not a fifteen year old, can be expected to know enough to decide that God does not exist.
Then why can you decide that God does exist?
Also, Pascal’s Wager, in an example I’ve been thinking about lately, is pretty much a logical proof, which doesn’t take age. Not that I agree with Pascal, but still.
>If an old religion was false, don’t you think someone might have said something before you came along?
There are always dissenters. In Judaism’s case, a splinter group followed Jesus and started Christianity, which is currently more popular than Judaism.
>It just happens to be that religion is very much a matter of the heart, as well as the brain, and the heart is a very confusing place to speak from.
I want to point this out as true for threadgoers, and also apologize for any implications I made that rubbed you wrong. It’s confusing for me too…
>So, anyway, there are many things I’d like to say in response to some of the statements here, but I won’t because it will serve no purpose other than to make me frustrated and others angry.
I’d like to hear what you have to say. I find it interesting, and I want to know why the answers to your questions made you certain in your faith and the answers to mine didn’t.
187- “If an old religion was false, don’t you think someone might have said something before you came along?”
Yes, and quite a lot of times they were driven away/stoned to death/burned/ect. Luckily today they are less often killed although they are excluded or people don’t believe them, which happens to me a lot.
I call myself an atheist- is 17 a better age for being able to decide such a thing?
Don’t get me wrong– I respect people who can believe in a supreme deity. I don’t think it’s something I could ever do. Which I suppose is a good thing for me, as I am certain I would not be happy under any one set religion.
I think that people should be happy with what they believe, don’t try to force it on others, and try to lead a relatively good life. I know I am hipocritical as sometimes I just really really can’t stop myself pointing out why someone’s logic is flawed/nonsensical, but only if they really bother me first. Hmm.
I know there aren’t many Christians around here, but does anyone celebrate Lent, and if so, what are you giving up(if anything)?
For those who know/care what it is, here is a quote from Wikipedia:
Lent, in some Christian denominations, is the forty-day-long liturgical season of fasting and prayer before Easter. The forty days represent the time Jesus spent in the desert, where according to the Bible he endured temptation by Satan. Different churches calculate the forty days differently.
The purpose of Lent is the preparation of the believer—through prayer, penitence, almsgiving and self-denial—for the annual commemoration during Holy Week of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus, which recalls the events linked to the Passion of Christ and culminates in Easter, the celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
In Western Christianity (with the exception of the Archdiocese of Milan which follows the Ambrosian Rite), Lent begins on Ash Wednesday and concludes on Holy Saturday. The six Sundays in Lent are not counted among the forty days because each Sunday represents a “mini-Easter”, a celebration of Jesus’ victory over sin and death.
In those churches which follow the Byzantine tradition (e.g. Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics), the forty days of Lent are calculated differently: the fast begins on Clean Monday, Sundays are included in the count, and it ends on the Friday before Palm Sunday. The days of Lazarus Saturday, Palm Sunday and Holy Week are considered a distinct period of fasting.
SFTDP
Apologies, that was supposed to be “for those of you who DON’T know/care”.
192) I’m giving up fast food, candy, and soda. I shouldn’t have any of those things any way, so this is a good time to move away from them.
I think fasting (when it’s safe) and giving up things like during Lent really helps to put things in some perspective. Obviously forgoing luxuries like candy, soda, fast foods etc isn’t the same as lengthy fasting or what have you, but I still think it’s a good idea no matter what your religious views.
192- Yep. Fasting, abstaining from meat, prayer, almsgiving, etc. It’s actually my favourite liturgical season.
My brother’s friend wanted to give up pants.
*snort*
194- I agree. Fasting once a day is a good trend to keep things in mind, especially considering how Jesus did it for 40 days.
I’d die. Literally.
195- I prefer Christmas, but Lent comes in a close second with Easter in third.
I fasted like, once.
Then I wondered why I was giving up food because Father Brooks said I should. Can anyone tell me why you’re supposed to fast?
Lent, I do it every year even though I haven’t been going to church for five years and Christian for two. This year I tried to give up some of my more annoying habits, but I epicly failed. Lent this year was a waste of time, for me.
I’ve convinced Justine (a former atheist) to create a religion. She used to to ancient Greece gods, but she sprang at the idea. The master of the underworld is named Broccio (pronounced brau-shee-oh). All the dieties are named after foods, except for the master goddess, named Juniper. Justine is a Twilight lover, but decided not to model her religion completely after Twilight (*phew*). Juniper is also the goddess of vampires.
Recent expidentures into the land of Pennism: There are five Publishers (which I’m going to rename). I’m still working on it.
Religion is kinda dumb. But it’s actually really fun when you create one.
I’m giving up fasting for Lent.
Geez, I kind of just realized it was Lent a few days ago. Is that sad?
A conversation I am having with a very annoying person on Facebook (I know her).
She’s lutheran, I’m atheist.
[Some of it got deleted. The gist: I’m atheist and she can hardly believe it. I think she was trying to convert me.]
Her: are u there?
Me: Yes
Her: There is Evidence there is a god so that is a lot better then not believing in him and going to hell
Me [starting to get frustrated]: Nice to know I’ll be in hell
Her: :}
do u even think there is a god or just dont cae?
care?
Me: I don’t think there’s a God. Maybe I care a little.
Her: Who created the world then?
Me: Um… that is a question that is not answerable by scientific means
Her: Yea There is EVIDENCE
Me: How?
Her: Go to a church youll find a lot like a bible
Me: Just because someone wrote something doesn’t mean it’s true
Her: and the bible even says things that is gonna happen and some of it did already
Me [losing patience]: That’s fantastic. Look, I’m not going to get into an argument with someone who I’m obviously not going to make any more open-minded.
Her: how do you think when people pray over people to like see they can see it is not just a maricle it is a miracle that god did for someone he holds the power to do that
Me [there goes the patience]: Again with the open-mindedness. Dude, you’re not going to convert me or anything. Stop trying.
Her: Why
is all of your family athiest?
have u ever been to a church
‘
?
Me [I wanted to end the conversation at this point]: I have, and my family’s Roman Catholic. Stop assuming things you don’t know.
Her: What is Roman Catholic?
Me: Um… a denomination of Christianity…
Her: i kno like what is the main thigs they do like luthern and stuff and diffrences?
Me: I have no idea.
Her: shouldent you know what ur religion means and understand it?
Me: It’s not my religion! I’m atheist!
Her: but u just said u are
Me [this was unbelievably annoying]: I said my family’s Catholic. Doesn’t mean I am.
Her: oh k
Her: Bye
Me [relieved]: Bye!
I hate it when people are close-minded. And can’t spell/use proper grammar.
Oh, SFTDP, but she said one more thing:
John:14:6 “I am the way the truth and the life”
…um, rude much? Thanks for respecting my beliefs.
202- I know, right? The people at my school are like that. (And they tell me that I’m a ‘dirty christian’ because I believe in evolution.)
I think the bible needs to have another ‘New Testament’. I could help write it.
202- Ugh, I hate it when people don’t realize that Roman Catholicism is a Christian denomination.
203- How is that disrespectful? That person is entitled to her opinions just as you are entitled to yours. She does seem pushy and annoying, but she can still say that if she wants.
204a- What’s wrong with evolution, right? I just cannot understand why some people think that religion and science cannot exist together. IMHO, they go perfectly hand-in-hand, because I believe both to be true, and two true things must agree with each other.
204b- Well, when the second coming rolls around, maybe God’ll let you write about it.
205 – No, you didn’t read the first part. It was quite infuriating. And, with the thanks, I was referring to the conversation as a whole.
205-Shyeah. “Catholic? That’s not Christian, is it?”
Mom claimed she can prove the existance of God.
Me: Prove it.
Her: We exist, don’t we? That’s proof enough.
Me: Um, no, it’s not.
Her: Then how did life come to be?
Me: I don’t know, but you can’t just say things you don’t know are God’s work.
Her: But I KNOW God exists.
Me: HOW?
Her: LIFE! *gets all worked up*
Me: You can’t explain how life exists, so you say it’s because of God? Does not compute. I believe in God, but that’s because of my experiences, and not because of what I can’t explain.
Her: *changes subject to the Horribleness of having a black shirt on*
I wonder what the GAPAs’ religions are. Are they allowed to tell us?
208- I hope they don’t follow that silly unspoken rule that teachers follow. I think Robert said his somewhere…
I thought GAPAs were a religion.
(209) Piggy, why do you think the unspoken rule is silly?
210–
210 – I concur with Luna.
210- I agree.
Maybe it’s just me, and it probably is, but I really don’t see exactly what’s wrong with trying to convert people you know and love. Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but in the end only one can be correct, and I think everyone’s as equally close minded about their as the next: a Christian believes in God, an Atheist does not. I think that when you get annoyed with friends who are trying to help you “see the light”, you have to look past the possibly annoying potential to see that this friend really cares about you and your life, not only this one on earth but your eternal life as well. Beavo, Kokonilly, your mom and your friend are only trying to help in their own way. And believe me, I know it can be annoying, but when you get bugged by them, look past the words and try to really see what they are saying: that they care about you and want you to be happy with what God has given you and not to disown it; that all they want is for you to be happy for the rest of your life. You don’t have to accept what they’re saying, but listening doesn’t hurt anyone either. I hope this helps!
Yes, I know I’m going kind of Jesus-freak. I just got back from Youth Group. It was flamablamablous. We talked about church stuff and then played hide-and-go-seek tag in the dark all over the building. It was really fun!
207- Beavo, have you ever sat down with your mom to talk about religion? It sounds to me like you just have short, unproductive arguments. If I were in your position, I would want to set aside a few hours to have A Talk.
214- But shouldn’t you be as thankful to them if they explain to you that there is no God and you can stop worrying about eternal damnation? It still works the same way- if en follows my beliefs en will be happier the rest of en’s life.
Would you would be annoyed and possibly offended if I tried to convert you (to any belief or lack of)?
214 – I appreciate your help, but I doubt she was trying to help me. I barely know this girl, and it was very rude to me that she would intrude in my business like that.
215-Tried to sit down and talk it out, multiple times, you have no idea. Result: Shouting match. I’ve decided not to have conversations with her about religion, music, styles, or anything to do with my love life. They get nowhere. It’s sad, really.
Re: Conversion- I see the point of trying to convert someone if they’re interested, but if they’re not you’re probably not going to get anywhere. And there’s a line to cross that goes from “intellegent discussion” to “opinion shoving”. Yes, there’s a steryotype that Christians cross that line too much, and maybe some of them do, but to generalize such a large amount of people is unfair.
211- I don’t see why they should somehow hide their opinions. As long as their opinions don’t get in the way of their teaching or behaviour, I don’t think they should purposely avoid stating their beliefs. I’ve seen many times that a teacher is in an active discussion with the class, but if the teacher is asked what religion they practice, what their political stance is, etc. they clam up and stop the discussion. A lot of teachers talk a lot about their lives, e.g., their family, what they’re doing over the weekend, that their wife is due to have a baby on May 11; but they seem afraid to state any personal opinions. I’m not saying they should make it an effort to make everyone know or understand their beliefs, but I don’t think they should avoid doing so either, if the class wants to know.
218 – But wouldn’t it interfere? Maybe some people will get offended. You never know, so they keep their opinions to themselves. And prying further is rude.
215- To be truthful, I don’t think I would. Instead, I would respectfully say, “I appreciate that you care about me enough to want to help me, but what you believe is different from what I believe. I am strong in my faith, and would like to continue along my own path, although yours does sound interesting enough.”
216- I suppose it all depends upon how well you are acquainted. I can see how you would be annoyed with someone you don’t know at all coming up to you and shoving a Bible in your face. However, if maybe you’ve known this girl for a while and if she is under the impression that the two of you are closer than you perceive, she may only be thinking of you. The initial impression of most people that believe in God when they find out that someone they know is Atheist is, “Oh, no! Something must have happened to en to make them move away from the path of God. Maybe I can do something to help.” I agree that this girl seems like somewhat of a pest, but try to tolerate her for a while and keep persisting in what you believe to be correct. And remember: a little listening never hurt anyone. Maybe if she provides substantial proof or something along those lines, you may actually come to like the idea of new faith.
Again, I hope this is helpful. I’m only trying to advise.
218– That is because they are not divulging such information is seen as not in their best interest. There are endless cases of a teacher position his or herself to one side of an issue only to be inundate with complaints from parents of opposing view. Everything offends someone. Teachers attempt neutrality such that they do not unduly influence pupils one way or another. Of course we all know that it can be pretty obvious where someone stands on an issue even if they don’t state explicitly, but as a general rule not stating opinion can be part of keeping your job.
/soap box
Wow my first sentence got messed up! I’m so tired. I hope you get my gist Piggy, I’m not disagreeing with you, but that’s how it is in my experience.
Happy Palm Sunday, one week to Easter!
*checks off calendar*
i get to eat chocolate in a week, I get to eat chocolate in a week…I’m going to die before a week is up, but I get to eat chocolate in a week…
Lenten promises are SO hard to keep!
223- I gave up fasting for lent this year.
224- Haha, good one.
Why didn’t I think of that?
Happy passover!
223- That is so, so sad! I have eight day’s until I can eat chocolate too because there’s a ban on corn syrup during passover, but you have to go for an unthinkably long amount of time without chocolate.
226- Happy Passover to you, too! (I just got back from a Seder dinner with some of my Jewish relatives…not half bad!
) And 40 days is a terribly long time…I’m trying soo hard not to think about it!
Happy Passover! I was going to go to Seder in Cincinatti with my grandmother this year but I didn’t.
I’m an athiest! I don’t have to deny myself anything because of my religion!
I have a question for athiests. Is it depressing not believing in anything? Do any of you still believe in an afterlife?
Jus’ wondering!
It’s not depressing. I’d say it’s somewhat happifieng, for me at least, ’cause I don’t have to do anything for god or whatever, and therefore don’t have to sacrifice things. I think for afterlife, what you expect is what you get. For example, Christians believe they’ll go to heaven, and they get heaven.
I am an athiest, although that may change as I may have other ideas as I get older.
I don’t find it depressing, and I do not believe in an afterlife. I think that oblivion would be a welcome thing after a long life. Not having to worry, not having to think… just peace.
For some reason when I asked a friend what religion en followed (if any) en hid her face and made quite a meal out of getting something out of en’s bag before saying, slowly, “Muslim. Just.. just don’t ask. Okay?”
And en seemed quite offended.
I know Muslims have a bad time of it in some countries, but here it’s quite accepted, given the number of mosques around.
230.2- I dunno… peace, yes, but you wouldn’t be able to feel it. Theoretically. Perhaps something happens to your soul (or spirit), if it exists, when you die, but I have a hard time believing it somehow. But then, if you’d had a really miserable life, perhaps you’d get a sort of spiritual rebate.
I two friends who are Muslims, and they are the only ones in my school. They aren’t lonely though.
Afterlife. What an intriguing topic, that I’ve thought of a fair amount.
I don’t find it depressing at all. From what I know of it, God is [snip]. (Snip that if you wish, GAPAs) [Done. Suffice it to say that it was a derogatory characterization. –Admin.] And amazingly insecure for someone who can create the world. If that existed I’d be much more depressed than I am now.
As mentioned in 320.1, it gives you so much more freedom if you don’t believe in a god.
As [Richard Dawkins/Douglas Adams/Someone else, I forget] said, I’ve been dead for eternity before I was born. What’ll be so different afterwards? (Not a direct quote, I couldn’t find it.) No, I don’t want to die. At least not now; that could well change in the future.
By the way, 229 — Atheism isn’t a religion. An atheist simply doesn’t believe in any gods.
And that reminds me of my last point. “I have a question for athiests. Is it depressing not believing in anything? Do any of you still believe in an afterlife?” The afterlife is, as far as I know, ruled out by what atheism is. I don’t see any way in which an atheist could believe in an afterlife. Correct me if I’m wrong, though.
Athiesm is a religion, it is a belief that centers around a god who doesn’t exist. (Of course, “who” “doesn’t” “exist” “a” “god” “around” are all the wrong words, but there aren’t any appropiate words. Unless, of course, we were to invent object neutral words…) Object neutral words are good for nothing. As in they are good a talking about nothing, if that makes any sense
By that logic, everyone’s got infinite religions. Let’s take a Christian, Piggy for this example.
Piggy is Christian.
However, he also has the religion that he doesn’t believe in Judaism.
And the one where he doesn’t believe the Qur’an.
And the one where he denies the existence of Hindu gods.
I don’t think that Piggy believes in Zoroastrianism either, so he’s got the religion where he doesn’t believe that.
Etc.
Atheism simply means that you don’t believe in a god. Nothing more, nothing less.
[Hey, Glasseh, minor snip off the end here in a probably hopeless attempt to keep the flames from fanning —Rosanne]
Those are the same. I am in the religion that believes in nothing, and Piggy’s in the religion that only believes in Christianity.
religion |rɪˈlɪdʒ(ə)n|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods : ideas about the relationship between science and religion.
• details of belief as taught or discussed : when the school first opened they taught only religion, Italian, and mathematics.
• a particular system of faith and worship : the world’s great religions.
From the Apple dictionary. I’d get the Oxford English Dictionary’s definition, but too lazy to find our copy and don’t have access to the online one.
I don’t believe in an afterlife, but I think somehow that what ever has ever been lingers, at least emotionally, forever. Like ghosts.
Or angels.
Definitly there is something emotionally, at least in the people who knew them.
I like to think everybody’s actions will impact the world in some way, even after their death–I want something that I’ve done to be remembered after I die. I don’t believe in the afterlife. I wouldn’t think of it as depressing… sometimes it’s really, really scary, though.
I agree. Deep thinking about death/the afterlife/etc., not to mention how small we are as one human being compared to that vast universe and places beyond can be extremely frightening. I prefer only thinking about this when necessary, and instead living my life in the strong hope that there is somewhere good for me when I die. =]
I kind of see what happens after you die this way (I’m agnostic, for the record). If you’re a good person, you end up with some sort of afterlife. Heaven, Summerlands, reencarnation, I don’t know. If you’re a bad person, why waste time torturing you in a fiery pit? You’re just gone. Kaput. Dead, quite literally. Your spirit has been extinguished, becasue you offered nothing to the world. Spirits who offered deserve an afterlife, even if it’s not eternal paradise.
I think you go where you expect to go. I don’t expect anything, so I’m going to be peaceful.
135-Hmm. I think that’s kind of depressing in a way. It’s like being eternally tortured- I think people ought to be given a second chance. I believe-sort of- in reincarnation- so if a person went bad, it’s not necessarily the spirit’s fault. But because the spirit was partially to blame, they get some sort of temporary punishment- perhaps detention in the body of a sickeningly self-righteous person.
That sounds AWFUL
What do you call one who believes in Greek myths?
I’ve been trying to figure that out.
Greco-Roman Neo-Pagan.
a greek polytheistic worshiper
that is right but the neo(meaning new) is not necessarily necessary.
Ah. I suppose that’s what I am.
Reincarnation = yes or no?
Karma = yes or no?
What are the Summerlands?
Does anyone else here consider science a religion?
I beleive that souls flow to and from Brahma like streams too and from an ocean, so things are born with a unique mix of personality traits taken from dead things and Druidic gods. So I half beleive in reincarnation, but not so much in Karma.
I personally think of science as a religion. It usually has the answers that make the most sense to me, but if I come across a theory I like more than the scientific equivelant, I’ll adopt that. In other words, I’m a mixed bag of random beleifs.
How is science a religion? Religion is having faith and believing something — science is finding proof, and coming up with the answer that makes the most sense.
239 —
Reincarnation = n
Karma = n
anything else supernatural = n
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I strongly recommend that everyone on this thread read up on what they are talking about. It seems to me that many are less-than-knowledgeable, which does not help very much in a discussion.
I don’t mean to be inflammatory — only to help this thread remain as interesting as possible.
Copied from Wikipedia: The Summerland is the name given by Wiccans (and some Pagans) and other earth-based religions for their afterlife. The belief is that after one experiences life to its fullest and comes to know and understand every aspect and emotion of life (usually after many reincarnations), their deity will let them into the Summerland. The Summerland also functions as a place of rest between incarnations. As the name suggests, it is often envisaged as a place of beauty and peace, where everything people hold close to their hearts is preserved in its fullest beauty for eternity. It is envisioned as containing wide (possibly eternal) fields of rolling green hills and lush grass.
Yes- science is facts. But I, being something close to an atheist, wonder how people who have been brought up to believe that God created people interpret evolution. And heaven. Is there a heaven for microbes? They were around first. So if there isn’t (based on the belief that there is no heaven for animals) then Heaven was created at the same time as humans. So God is still, possibly, actively creating. ?
240.1: I agree that religion involves more faith than science, but you also have to have faith to beleive in many scientific ideas. Also, the answer that makes the most sense to a religious person would be the answers supplied by their religion.
Heaven puzzles me. How could one stand eternity in a place without plants and animals, just angels and God? I don’t really know anything about it, I’m sure there are answers… But yeah, I beleive in a reincarnation-thing. Or maybe humans go to heaven for being weirder than other animals and everyone else gets to reincarnate… (Randomly making up theories)
242- I think that the easiest path for a religious person might be to spot the gaps, so to speak, in their beliefs, and fill them in with scientific facts. But I also get the impression that one reason so many people are so religious is that it’s comforting to believe in afterlives and higher powers and so forth, and also that it’s good to know other people are worshipping the same thing. My great-aunt was a strict atheist until her husband died, and then she became a Catholic- but when I once asked her what evidence there was of God existing, she said there wasn’t any. And she’s always educated me with the scientific version of things rather than the Catholic. So maybe even if you don’t really believe in something, you can… believe that… you believe in it anyway just for the good feeling.
(243) Kokopelli42: One reason people might find scientific “facts” unsatisfying is that they keep changing as new information comes in. Science never claims to give the whole, final truth about anything. Many religions do. That assurance could be more comforting to people who want absolute, unchanging answers to life’s questions, not just hypotheses that might turn out to be either right or wrong.
Yes. Good point. But since the only reason scientific facts keep changing is because of more truth, whereas the reason religions never change their ‘facts’ is that they are all fixed on believing what someone decided in ancient times. I don’t mean to offend, I’m just saying. Some religions just don’t have room for new scientific discoveries because their legends, doctrines, etc. are too complete- they aren’t vague enough to incorporate new facts. Or the leaders of religion feel that followers of their religions will lose faith if they keep changing their minds.
That’s an awfully genereralized statement. In many modern Neo-Pagan beleifs, there aren’t “facts” but there is truth. Same with any good religion. Many Christians don’t take the bible word for word literally, but they take the truths it shows in it’s lessons.
Much of the Jewish religion is supported by science, and vice versa. Sometimes, they don’t appear to match up, and on some things, Rabbis say that the Torah is the truth, and on most, they say that the science is true, and the Torah can’t be interpreted literally in those places. Such as creation. Many argue that a “day” for God isn’t the same as a day for us, and the time frame, along with many other things, are merely put in human terms so we have a better understanding. But our understanding of it is like a middle-schooler’s understanding of astrophysics. Very limited. So for things like that, science fills in the basic outline that we already had. When it comes to the end of the world, that’s a whole ‘nother issue. No one’s sure about that, Rabbis or scientists.
My mother is an astrophysicist. We also were educated with the scientific view, as well as the religious view.
Now, imagining Heaven. Or eternity, for that matter. We are taught not to do it. It’ll drive you insane, literally. Humans can’t imagine it, we have no frame of reference, and they shouldn’t try. stupid me, I did. I stopped rather quickly. I was imagining the universe. STUPID! Don’t try, believe me.
244.1.1- But how can one believe lessons from something one doesn’t believe?
Okay, so I’m doing a project on religion, and my religion is Judaism. There’s one thing I’m not sure of, and I was wondering if anyone Jewish would know. Is the Torah or Tanach the most sacred text? I’ve researched it but have not found a definite answer.
It is the Tanach, of which the Torah is a part.
You have posts on religion here too? Ay yi yi… you should see some of the posts about that on the Chatterbox… Okay, I’m Jewish. And that’s all I’m going to say.
In the book The God Delusion the author talks about seven categories of religious belief. Which do you place yourself in?
1. I am absolutely certain that there is a God. It’s completely impossible for God not to exist.
2. There’s probably a God, but it’s possible, if improbable, that there isn’t.
3. I don’t really know, but I’m leaning toward there being a God. It’s slightly more likely that there is a God than that there isn’t.
4. There’s exactly equal chances of there being or not being a God.
5. I don’t really know, but I’m leaning toward there not being a God. It’s slightly more likely that there isn’t a God that that there is.
6. There probably isn’t a God, but it’s possible, if improbable, that there is.
7. I am absolutely certain that there’s no God. It’s completely impossible for God to exist.
I place myself in category 6.
I place myself in category six as well. I’m not entirely sure why I’m not a category seven, other than that it’s somewhat close-minded to deny a slight possibility.
These categories are too black and white for me. I believe it’s highly unlikely that there’s a God, but yet I and people around me have had experiences to lead me to believe in a higher power. While it’s scientifically unlikely and I can’t wrap my mind around an idea so large, I can’t deny personal experience.
I would place myself in category one. Without question. No, that’s not true. I’m certain I belong in that category, though it took questions to get me there. Not to mention personal experience.
I am a 2.
I thought you were an atheist?
I’m a 6.5.
No. I believe in God, just not religion.
I’m happy that 2 is popular enough to have its own number, because I feel that I am one…
Cliff Eagle- Could you elaborate?
Ok. I’m doped on allergy medication right now so this might not make sense, but here goes.
Until some of this stuff is explained scientifically, I have to believe that there is a supernatural being that controls stuff. Like luck, for example. I know most of it is odds, but, who decides that? At the Kentucky Derby (I don’t follow horse racing but i’m just using this), the horse Mine That Bird was a 50-1 longshot. Or, better, in Star wars, when Han Solo has a seven hundred to one chance of navigating the asteroid field. Who does that? I know it’s a logical fallacy, but I have to appeal to ignorance, (i.e. god did it) until I have a distinct answer.
As far as religion, I don’t think the supernatural is above me in any way. Religion comes from the concept that views the supernatural as a “being”, and that leads people to fanatically worship it which causes every conflict imaginable. I take the supernatural for granted, i.e, it’s there but I don’t do anything for the supernatural.
Does that help?
The only truly random things are quantum mechanics.
So you’re areligious? I think that’s the word.
Wait no…. umm… what about polytheism? Because all of the above mention A God, suggesting singularity.
I don’t believe in one God. And I don’t believe in a group of main gods. I do believe that every natural phenomena has a kami (I got really sick of using the word spirit or soul, so I’m sticking with the Japanese word kami, which is kind of like spirit but the spirits are a tad more like deities). So where would I fit?
Never mind. I’m a 7.
7. My dad is one, and his beliefs have washed onto me.
There are 24 books in the Tanach, (and I memorized the names of them all. Worst test EVER!), five of which are the Torah. Some of those 24 are sectioned, as well.
I am most definitely an Orthodox Jew (though if you don’t like me, please don’t judge other Jews by me) and I am proud of that. I actually enjoy answering questions about my religion. (Basic things, though, I am no philosopher, I am a fifteen year old.)
Sequoia, I would love to answer questions for you! Just ask!
SFTDP, but I was reading through the top of the thread, and I saw some questions on the Holocaust that I felt like giving my opinion on.
Many Jews lost faith, and some gained it when they saw open miracles, etc. It was a horrible thing, but (meaning no disrespect to anyone) most of us are taught that we should be separate from the nations of the world, and whenever we begin to assimilate too much into their culture, God gives us something like the Holocaust to show that we will never be considered the same as everyone else. Not that we have to be clannish and snooty, we need to recognize that we’re separate. Some people think that antisemitism in Europe is the same type of thing, though not on the same terrible level. Again, NO disrespect or offense intended. If you feel offended, tell me and I will shut up and go away.
are you serious
that is absolutely outrageous. wow. I am stunned you just said that.
let me get this straight:
let’s all be separate
the holocuast was probably punishment for not self segregating
please correct me if that is not what you’re saying, I really hope it isn’t. wow.
I have no idea what you’re talking about “being separate from other nations”
I think en might have been saying that the Holocaust was a reminder that Jews will always be persecuted and set apart from “other nations”, even if they appear to be the same, and to make their own decisions about whether to integrate or not.
This is NOT my opinion, but this is what I got from the paragraph. Sorry if I’m wrong.
Pretty much. It was a reminder that we are not the same, no matter how much it seems like it. Also, with complete assimilation comes leaving God.
I still don’t understand that. I can understand wanting to preserve culture, religious custom and identity and so on, but I don’t see what’s wrong with being part of other cultures. I cannot fathom how anyone could honestly believe the Holocaust was some sort of divine punishment.
The destruction of the Temple was as bad as or worse than the Holocaust, and that was definitely a divine punishment.
I would assume that you’re atheist. No offense intended, but you will never understand anything about God nor want to for any spiritual reason whatsoever unless you convert. I don’t really agree it was a punishment for mixing together. However, you will not think that it is a punishment for any reason. Therefore, the only legit topic here is whether we should mix.
Separate does not mean separate-water-fountain-hate-everyone-lynch-people separation. It means remembering that we are Jews, God’s chosen people, and others, to put it bluntly, are not. People are welcome to convert-but if they do not, they are different. We must aspire to a higher goal than others. We must follow 613 commandments, we must be role models to the nations of the world, we must be beacons of light to the world when the times are dark-and when times are good, often we must suffer. With that I rest my case.
You’re right, I fully reject the idea that the Holocaust was any kind of divine punishment. I don’t have much more to say on the topic.
Do you live in Israel?
No. I live in Pennsylvania.
Do you plan to move to Israel? I ask because that would seem to satisfy the no-mixing law you follow.
Or maybe I’m confused.
Also, how was the destruction of the Temple as bad as (or worse than) the Holocaust?
I would say the Holocaust was at least 10 times worse.
The “no-mixing” law is a lot more complicated than I made it seem. I’m sorry I brought it up. It’s not really ASSOCIATING with the rest of the world that’s a problem, but it usually leads to people assimilating and leaving God. THAT is the major issue.
The Holocaust is closer to us, but reading the descriptions of the destruction of the Temple (part of the services on the anniversary of the destruction) is horrifying. It’s just as horrible as the Holocaust, for sure.
Hmm. I guess I don’t understand the no mixing.
The death toll from the Holocaust was at least ten times higher though, and the Siege of Jerusalem wasn’t a war of hate though, it was for conquest. Hmm, interesting.
Vendaval_The bad thing was that the destruction of the Temple is universally held to be divine punishment, while the Holocaust-not necessarily. Also, The Holocaust did not destroy anything specifically sacred.
crazyquotescollector_How can you know if it was a divine punishment?
Bleah, I have such trouble expressing myself! I don’t KNOW if it was a punishment, I was saying something I had heard from a teacher of mine. I will stop discussing this, I do not have enough solid facts to say anything. *shuts up. for good. on this topic, anyway*
People at school ask me about my kippa and how it stays on. Which is kind of weird, because while I know why I wear it, I don’t really know how it stays on(I don’t use clips). I decided to tell people that it was a magnet that was attracted to my head, where there was another magnet. Surprisingly, some people believed me.
247.1-Thanks.
252- Hee hee. My mother used to buy the clip-on ones for my brothers, but my brothers hated them because the clips pulled their hair. Now they wear the big black velvet ones. They still get funny looks, though. Magnets…
What’s really funny is when I go swimming. I swim mixed, but I wear a long sleeve swimshirt and a long skirt over my bathing suit. And I thought the kippas got funny looks! One time I looked at myself in our storm door, and I’m like “Hey! No wonder! I look like I’m wearing a ball gown!” And I did, at least, if you could only see an outline. *finishes random story*
Have you ever stood at the base of a huge tree and looked straight up? You know that powerful/tiny feeling you get? It sounds silly, but it’s when I do that, stand under a tree, that I truly feel connected to God. Really it’s the same whenever I’m outside, but especially then.
Weirdness over. I like this discussion. No one’s trying to prove anything, we’re stating things calmly.
A question. What would you do if you were in a plane that was heading towards an unavoidable crash?
Story time.
Once it was getting dark out and I had this strong urge to go outside. So I was outside, just walking around and enjoying my backyard, and then I started talking to the trees. It really seemed to me like they had a spirit in them and that they were listening to me. I smiled at them and they waved at me (at least it seemed like it) and we had an nice little one sided discussion for about half an hour. Then I went back inside and realized I had been talking to trees. I was going to look up druid stuff but I never got around to it. Sorry if I sound phycho, but I really felt a connection to nature that one day, and that’s one of the things that’s pushed me towards more earth-based religions.
254- I know the feeling about the tree. I don’t connect to God, but I feel sort of dizzy. Especially if I’m at the top of the tree looking down.
What, exactly, is a kippa?
Your last question: I would swear loudly, tape my jacket into something parachute-like, put my passport in my pocket (for later identification), hug whoever was nearby, and sort of pray, because if there is a God and they are as compassionate and kind as it is said, they will (hopefully) admit non-believers/prayers to Heaven or The Afterlife or whatever. Then right before the plane crashed I would jump into the air to avoid the smashing and then grab my bag and little sister and other not-so-fortunate-but-still-alive passengers and run.
What do you think about past lives/reincarnation?
I’m a three on that scale, the type that “thinks god has very little to do with average life and could care less if I wear a bikini, but will spontaneously start praying when faced with a dilemma ’cause it can’t hurt and god might exist after all”.
251) But… I dunno, the “we’ll always be different” sounded depressing. I’m not jewish, but I think that any kind of segregation (by religion or otherwise) is senseless and would only harm both sides. I don’t even know what religion most of my friends are, and I don’t really care. One of the most important things is that humans stick together, instead of being separated by cultural differences or nationalities.
254) I would write my last words on my arm with a pen, since I never really bothered to write a will or anything like that. I’d want to tell my family something and not just leave them. If they were with me, I´d probably hug them all and then write my name on my arm and some last words.
Plane question:
What I’d like to do: Jump out, using my airline blanket as a parachute.
What I probably would do: Hide under the seat. Scream. Probably die.
Plane question:
I’d probably die of fright well before the crash. *is a coward*
Plane question:
If I had time, I might try to call family with a goodbye. The rest of the time, I think I’d sob frantically and hug my knees/the person next to me. It’s a pathetic reaction, but it’s probably accurate. I think I’d also try to compose some last words inside my head. I might even pray, because though I don’t think I believe in a god, I could be wrong.
257- Mine would go something like that, only add “say Shema Yisroel” (a Jewish prayer) to the list of things to do.
255- Yeah, I imagine looking down would make you feel rather dizzy. Maybe the feeling is just me, but I really do see God in nature. And I know that the Jewish Heaven is not just for Jews, but, like anyone else, non-Jews would have to live properly in order to get in. And, the way I learned it, Heavenly punishment is not forever. I do believe in reincarnation in some sense, people who didn’t do their “job” in this world may have to come back as another person. Not really a good thing. And I know of an opinion that says if someone is named after a particular person, they have certain qualities of the that person. I’m not really sure how that works, though.
A kippa, also known as a yarmulke, is the skullcap worn by religious Jewish males.
“Many people ask ‘why me’ when something bad happens, but often they don’t ask the same question about something good. Why do you deserve this good thing? Is there a reason? If you deserve the good thing, it stands to reason that you also deserved the bad, assuming the same One is behind both.”
160- Oh, thanks for the explanation. Not wishing to offend, but is it something sort of similar to a Muslim fez? They have a lot of those here.
I do see a lot of beauty in nature so it’s possible that there’s a sort of deity or semi-god in charge of it, not the same one in charge of human society. Just a thought. As I stated before, my religion is extremely flexible. So, if you don’t have to be Jewish to get into Heaven, then maybe there’s no reason to pray and be devoted to God as long as you are relatively decent. I have discovered that the easiest way to be decent is to curl up in a ball under your desk, because otherwise one may have a sudden irresistible desire to strangle a classmate. Theoretically, if I just curled up under my desk for my entire life (discounting bathing and eating) would I be admitted to Heaven?
What do you mean, “not wishing to offend, but”? Of course it doesn’t offend. If you asked if it was the same thing as the pope wore, I doubt you would include that phrase. I’m not accusing you of overt racism, but we all (me included) should be cautious with our words.
Oops, yeah, I meant to say so. It doesn’t, and shouldn’t, offend at all.
I was talking about Kokopelli’s comment about a Muslim Fez.
I know. Why, what did it sound like I was saying?
I was saying it was ens comment, not yours, that could be offending.
I certainly don’t wish to offend anyone, but I’m curious — why would K52’s “not wishing to offend” be more offensive than your “no offense intended” in comment 251.1.1.1.1.2?
I meant it might be offensive to Muslims to say that that might be offensive.
I am so confused! (Not so surprising, I spend much of my life being confused) I didn’t mean to offend anybody, I doubt anybody else meant any offense either. The end.
Saying that you don’t intend to offend anyone is offensive? MBers are deeper than I am.
GAPAS, could you maybe post a picture of a kippa?
261 – “Shema Yisroel, Hashem Elokeinu, Hashem Echad.” – Hear, O Israel, Hashem, our God, Hashem is One. This is one of the most important statements in my religion. (Hashem (lit: The Name) is one of the “informal” names for God). And there are the Seven Noahide Laws which apply to non-Jews.
According to chabad dot org: THE 7 LAWS
1
Acknowledge that there is only one G-d who is Infinite and Supreme above all things. Do not replace that Supreme Being with finite idols, be it yourself, or other beings. This command includes such acts as prayer, study and meditation.
2
Respect the Creator. As frustrated and angry as you may be, do not vent it by cursing your Maker.
3
Respect human life. Every human being is an entire world. To save a life is to save that entire world. To destroy a life is to destroy an entire world. To help others live is a corollary of this principle.
4
Respect the institution of marriage. Marriage is a most Divine act. The marriage of a man and a woman is a reflection of the oneness of G-d and His creation. Disloyalty in marriage is an assault on that oneness. (No adultery)
5
Respect the rights and property of others. Be honest in all your business dealings. By relying on G-d rather than on our own conniving, we express our trust in Him as the Provider of Life.
6
Respect G-d’s creatures. At first, Man was forbidden to consume meat. After the Great Flood, he was permitted – but with a warning: Do not cause unnecessary suffering to any creature.
7
Maintain justice. Justice is G-d’s business, but we are given the charge to lay down necessary laws and enforce them whenever we can. When we right the wrongs of society, we are acting as partners in the act of sustaining the creation.
Theoretically, if you did “just curl up under my desk for my entire life (discounting bathing and eating)” you could get into Heaven, but your portion in the world to come would be about the size of the desk.
Re: Strangling Classmates: I have often felt this urge. I have restrained myself.
I think that those are quite complicated as you said them. Here is my list.
1 No idols.
2 No blaspheming.
3 Don’t kill.
4 No adultery.
5 No stealing.
6 Don’t rip meat from an animal and eat it.
7 As a society, set up a judicial system.
Everyone else gets seven, and we get six hundred and thirteen. Great.
Incidentally, since it was Shavuot, we read the Ten Commandments. Some people didn’t stand up for them. Why? Because they are as important as any other part of the Torah, including the Shema.
I didn’t write them myself, I got them from Chabad. I was going to write what you did, but I thought I should get them from an ‘official’ source.
Edit: 6 Don’t rip meat from a live animal and eat it. Aver min hachai.
And those 613 aren’t SO hard. Not all of them, anyway
Well, there’s one that’s really hard. Don’t mention names of other gods-you can’t say the days of the week.
Traditional Quakers used numbers for months and days of the week in order to avoid honoring pagan gods. Hence First Day school instead of Sunday school, for example.
We do the same thing in Hebrew except not for months-we have a different calendar. I don’t think the months are pagan gods, though.
No, I think they’re Roman emperors. And the days: since they aren’t actually worshiped now, I think that’s why we can say the days of the week.
SFTNP
Some of them are: Janus, Mars, Maia, Juno. Both Julius and Augustus were deified as well.
Oh. Hmm. They had interesting names, didn’t they? I dunno, I don’t think they count, cromwell. Besides, practically speaking, we can’t go around sying “Yom rishon,” etc. No one would understand us.
SFTNP
Oh, some people do.
Yes, and some people… Well, you know the sign in Meah Shearim? No loshon hara here, but I just don’t do those things. I guess I’m just not “up there”.
That gives me an idea. We should rename some months as the names of the GAPAs. Such as-um…Lasley instead of July, maybe?
Ooh! I like that idea. Robert instead of October? (both have ‘o’s and ‘b’s)
(262.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1) I don’t want to be a month!
(I must admit, though, that I like the sound of “Rebeccuary” and “Rosember.”)
And Robril and Puly.
Or Paulune.
By the way, I’ve left Shintoism and have become just a plain old animist. This is easier for me than Shintoism, since their were names for particular kami and particular kami were known for particular things. With my animism, everything, animate and inanimate, physical and nonphysical, should be respected because everything has a spirit. No main gods or spirits, and no special names for spirits, just… everything is alive in one way or another. These spirits can actively affect my life, but I don’t need to pay particular homage to them (although I do burn some incense and thank the trees or thank the rocks or talk to the weather on occasion). And there are no laws or commandments. I just need to appreciate and respect everything.
(249.4.1.2.1.1) Cliff Eagle: Your idea sounds a lot like deism — the belief that a God exists and created the universe but no longer plays an active role in its operation and doesn’t need or demand to be worshipped. It was popular among thinkers during the late-18th-century period now called the Enlightenment, who included many of the “Framers” who founded the United States.
Benjamin Franklin also was a deist! His Boston family got really angry at him for that, as he moved to Pennsylvania!
This thread is moving sideways, not down…
About a year ago, I stopped believing in God. I believed him to be all matter and and all natural laws and processes. It was the first step…
When I went to a Camp Moshava (a Jewish camp), I was one of the only ones who didn’t believe in free will. I convinced some others of the ‘truth’. Now I wish I didn’t. My thoughts then will always, for the rest of my life, be seen through a film of shame. However, I also feel that stage was necessary for my belief now. Anyway, what made me think again was three people at my school. Two were atheists, A1 and A2. One was Catholic, C. What C did was amaze me by how much he believed. Nothing could shake his belief in God. While in many issues I disagreed, I have to admit that I was forced to agree with him on that. Now A1 and A2 were my friends. After we had played a series of Diplomacy games and I had beaten them badly in all of them, they were embarrassed enough to ban me for ‘cheating’. I didn’t mind as I probably would have quit anyway. the thing that puzzled me about them was that they would rather have people they could control playing Diplomacy and as their friends. I thought that they probably didn’t believe in God because they didn’t want to admit that there was something much greater than them…
I looked at my reasons. I didn’t believe in free will because I felt I didn’t deserve it, and I didn’t believe in God because I was insecure. Now I believe in him fully.
1. Thinking you understand why someone has certain beliefs is very dangerous. I could hypothesize that you believe in God because you can’t face the world on your own, but I don’t because that would be very condescending and speculative.
2. Believing in God because you are secure in your belief seems circular to me. Could you clarify?
No one explained what a kippa was, so I guess I will, although I’m certainly not the most qualified. A kippa is a skull cap worn to cover one’s head, to show respect for God.
265- You went to Moshava? Do you know Philadelphia-area people? (GAPAS, can I ask this? Can he tell me?) Everyone needs to question sometimes. If I hadn’t been allowed to question, I would have gone off years ago. I’m glad you came back, otherwise I would have to try to be mekarev you, and that’s hard over internet.
266- I thought I did! Oops. I think that’s a reason, yes.
No, it was the one in Wisconsin.
Ah well. I don’t know anyone in Wisconsin. I know some Detroit people, but they went to Sternberg with me.
Know anyone from LA or Chicago?
Yeah. They also went to Sternberg. See, I know people from where I live, and from camp. Lessee… You live in/near Chicago, yes? (Or did I just make that up?) [Snip! Please do not give out full names of your fellow campers. The rules apply as much to friends and acquaintances as to MuseBloggers. –Admin.]
Feh.
I sowwy. Mea Culpa.
((I asked this question on the hot topics thread, but it is probably more appropriate here.))
Where did the “Jewish nose” stereotype start? I know the Nazi’s put drawings in the newspapers, but why big noses?
Jews have big noses.
Not the ones I know!
I do! And large noses run in my father’s family. (It’s actually quite scary how much I look like his many-times-great grandmother. Well, maybe not so many, but I still look like this old black and white picture. Pointless bit of info over.)
I’m too lazy to re-type my theory, I posted it over on the Hot Topics tread by your question, if you care.
I think the number of Christian religions is stupid. There’s Lutherans, Methodists, the whichever-groups make-up-the-United-church couldn’t decide whether to join together or not, Anglicans are Protestants but they’re meant to be more like the Catholics than some of the other protestants… aethists probaly think Christians are crazy.
Yes, some do.
Choice is a good thing.
To be honest, Jews do that too. Not with official names, but still. There’s an old joke: A Jew is stranded on a desert island for many years. When he is finally rescued, the rescuers see that he has built a hut and – two synagogues. “Why two synagogues?” they ask. “Ah,” he says, “that is the one I pray in, and that one I wouldn’t set foot in!”
Jokes are only funny if there’s an element of truth in them. Jews are a stiff-necked nation, if a group/person doesn’t get their way, off they go to start their own school/synagogue. Not quite as separate as the different Christian religions, but whatever…
Did that make sense? I’m greatly afeared it didn’t…
Another example-Two Hasidim are talking. One says-
You know, the world is made up of Jews and Goyim. No use talking about Goyim. Jews-Ashkenaz, Sephard, and Mizrachi. No use talking about Mizrachi or Sephard. Ashkenaz-Hasidim and Mitnagdim. No use talking about Mitnagdim. Hasidim have Sakneh and Chabad. No use talking about Sakneh. Chabad-well, there are the intellectuals and the others. No use talking about the others. And in the intellectuals, there’s you and me-and you know how little you know…
There are also Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Judaism, too. The list goes from most strict (on following Torah) to least strict.
It’s really just people never see exactly eye-to-eye. They may be close, but not exact.
Yeah, but I think it’s a very human reaction to storm off in a huff and start your own thing if you don’t like what the other guy did. That’s why there are two girls’ schools in Scranton, PA (NOT where I live), with 29 girls total. 21 in 1 school, 8 in the other.
Someone should create “Muse-ism” as a religion.
Wait a minute… Our posts don’t have comment numbers. Let’s give it up for glitches!
The hazards of posting from moderation space. It’s actually a funny little conversation to have floating at the bottom of the page. Sort of stands on its own.
(271) RoseQuartz: A Museish religion formed the nucleus of a MuseBlog fanfiction a while back. See
https://musefanpage.com/blog/?p=990#comment-140014
and
https://musefanpage.com/blog/?p=990#comment-140302 .
Okay, so we have maybe
January-Rebeccuary
February-?
March-?
April-Robril
May-?
June-Paulune
July-Puly
August-?
September-?
October-?
November-?
December-Rossember
August-Uraniaust
October-HPBember
November-Kokember
This is silly. I approve.
February is Rebeccuary, and November is Rosember. How about naming some months after Muses? E.g., Chaduary, Rebeccuary, Pwrtch, Aeioupril, Mimay, Paulune, Bo-ly, Crrawgust, Feathember, Kokotober, Rosember, Musember. Hm, that leaves out Urania and me. I don’t want to be a month, but Urania…. Where to put her?
I don’t think you have a choice. We’re all in or all out. Robtober, perhaps?
If we add days of the week, all the Muses and a few extra items would fit.
That leaves five names to be filled-one for HPBs, one for 42, One for MuseBlog, one for the magazine, one for randomness.
Bunday. Robday, Blogday, Uraniday, Magday, 42day, and Randomday.
If we can come up with a whole calender, I will use it!
My birthday is the 16th of Kokotober! and 1+6=7, and 7 squared minus 7 is 42! Yay me!
How ’bout…
588 day year (42×14)
14 months
With 42 days
With a 6 day week (more weekend)
One month for each of the GAPAs, 9 months for each Muse, and 1 for HPBs
The days of the week are:
BunnyhμÎÏα, Kokoיו×, RobertDag, Rosannejour, Paulदिन, RebeccaPäev.
They mean _____day in Greek, Hebrew, Norwegian, French, Hindi, and Estonian.
Years pre-MuseBlog are written BB (Before Blog)
Years in MuseBlog are DB (During Blog)
Years after MuseBlog (When talking about future) are AC (After Catastrophe)
‘Twould be Yom Koko, not Koko Yom.
‘Twould be too hard to transfer from normal to Blog calendar.
‘Twould have no astronomical basis.
‘Twould also be extremely annoying if I started every sentence with ‘twould.
Okay, then
יו×koko
Whatever.
Yeah. I think it was kind of a mistake to use humor there, but I wasn’t insulting you. 8 months (two for each GAPA) with 42 days and 29 Days of Feasting would work. It would still be hard to convert, but easier.
‘Twould be, indeed. On all counts.
Midsummer is coming up. I’m excited!
I missed Beltane because of dramaz, but I’m going to do this one. I plan to write out a plan of the ritual and celebration in my Book of Shadows soonish. Maybe tonight when I’m done cleaning my room. It needs to feel right, and it does. I think I’m ready to start writing. I hope I have time….
I’ve been looking through Witchvox and similar for ideas and inspiration. I might send in pictures of my alter from this one. It’s probably going to be prettier then the Candlemass one and just as OCD.
None of my friends are into this.
I’m kind of alone here, but that’s okay.
How did Beavo’s post get up there? *is confused*
For that matter, how did mine get up there?
And how did…never mind. Does this prove God?
That totally just made my day.
My family is crazy. They all started out Jewish and then half converted to Christianity, a couple are Buddhist, I think a lot are atheist and there’s one Druid in there somewhere. Plus they all moved to China and New York.
I guess I’m Shinto………’cause I’m not Jewish, Christian, or any of that, and I really like the concepts used in Shinto……..yeah.
(There go the numbers again)
Robert–is there anything you would like named after you?
Ohheyreligion. I continue to be an atheist. I haven’t come around here much lately. Some things people said earlier in the thread really annoyed me, so I left to avoid snapping at them.
262- commandment 4 talks about “the marriage of a man and a woman.” What is the opinion of your kind of Judaism on gay marriage?
No, that’s just about adultery. The rest is made up.
Leviticus 18:22:
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”
Okay, so I did my Midsummer alter yesterday and it’s really pretty! I researched what Midsummer was about (other than the solstice) and I came up with a couple good stories about the Oak and Holly king fighting over the throne, or the legend of how the God and Goddess prove reincarnation. I also think I have a good idea of what you’re supposed to do on this Sabbat. It’s about recharging your magick and energy for the year and thinking on how you’re going to change and grow. It’s kind of like a new years, but in the middle of the year. I’ve made a couple of resolutions and wrote them down in my Book.
Side note: I’m in Cancer right now (or something like that, according to where I get my Astrology stuff) and it was like “you may feel the need to pick up new habits or clean something” which was really creepy because I had just cleaned my entire room on a whim. It took a couple of hours, and by the time I was done I was really satisfied with how my room felt. I think I work better when things are in order. I might look into Feng Shui.
The following discussion took place on the Quotations thread:
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 10:42
Some amusing Pope quotes:
Pope Pius IX, from his “Syllabus of Condemned Opinions†(i.e. opinions that are BAD):
“Every man is free to adopt and profess any religion, which, under the guidance of reason, he believes to be true.â€
“The Church has no power to lay down dogmatically that the religion of the Catholic Church is the one true religion.â€
Pope Pius XI:
“Mussolini is a wonderful man. Do you hear me? A wonderful man.â€
Pope Pius XII:
“Private ownership of the means of production is ordained by God.â€
“One Galileo in a two thousand years is enough.â€
Those last two are real gems.
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Enceladus {Tithea} (20 wung points)
in June 27th, 2009 @ 10:53
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Kokonilly
in June 27th, 2009 @ 10:56
Wait, so the Catholic Church sees those first two quotes as BAD?
o.0
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 11:25
Yep. Nice people, eh? You know that while the Vatican library’s shelves are full of prohibited books by excommunicated authors, not a single German Catholic was excommunicated before, during, or after WWII?
Reading the Mussolini quote out loud with an Italian accent is hilarious.
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Enceladus {Tithea} (20 wung points)
in June 27th, 2009 @ 11:29
All those are just another reason for me to dislike the Catholic Church.
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 11:46
Some more:
Pope Gregory I (The Great):
“The bliss of the elect in heaven would not be perfect unless they were able to look across the abyss and enjoy the agonies of their brethren in eternal fire.â€
Pope Gregory VI:
“From the polluted fountain [of] that absurd and erroneous doctrine, or rather raving, which claims and defends liberty of conscience for everyone comes, in a word, the worst plague of all – liberty of opinions and free speech.â€
Wait, I’ve got some American Evangelical stuff too…
Jerry Falwell:
“Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions.â€
“If you’re not a born-again Christian, you’re a failure as a human being.â€
“The idea that religion and politics don’t mix was invented by the devil to keep Christians from running their own country.â€
Pat Robertson:
“You say you’re supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice the the spirit of the Antichrist.â€
“The minute you turn [the Constitution] into the hands of non-Christian people and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society.â€
“The great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something… The people who have come into [our] institutions [today] are primarily termites. They are destroying institutions that have been built by Christians… The termites are in charge now …and the time has arrived for godly fumigation.â€
What, Zyklon-B? It was first developed as a pesticide XD
“The feminist agenda is… about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.â€
Seriously, this is some of the best unintentional humour out there. These people are so ignorant it’s funny.
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Enceladus {Tithea} (20 wung points)
in June 27th, 2009 @ 12:07
Take these to the hot topic thread. It will spark debate. Me likey debate.
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 12:21
Nah, too one-sided. Besides, the hot topic is already dedicated to the Iranian mess and I’m notorious for being vehemently anti-theistic.
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RoseQuartz
in June 27th, 2009 @ 12:21
Pssst, Enc. That is NOT a good idea.
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 12:48
What, afraid I’ll shatter everyone’s faith?
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gimanator
in June 27th, 2009 @ 13:19
Whoa, whoa! There’s no need to be so aggressive here, please. Frigid Symphony was enough vehement anti-theism for me.
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RoseQuartz
in June 27th, 2009 @ 13:39
Uh… the person whose post you just responded to is FrigidSymphony.
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 13:39
How is that aggressive?
And by the way, I’m FS. Pleased to meet you.
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gimanator
in June 27th, 2009 @ 14:12
Back again, then, eh? Why the name change? More importantly, when did you come back? Last I saw you you said something along the lines of “MB was too childish†and that you went off to pursue your own esoteric interests?
Anyway, no matter how much argument you’ll spark, welcome back.
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 14:15
Meh, I heard something about paleophyte threads so I thought I’d check the site out again. I’m on vacation and bored, so anything new is always fun.
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gimanator
in June 27th, 2009 @ 17:39
Alright, then I’ll see you around!
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Kokonilly
in June 27th, 2009 @ 13:29
Heh. That post reflected your avatar, a little bit… If that’s not how you intended it, sorry, but it just sounds like how your avatar looks to me, if that makes any sense.
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 14:12
I didn’t choose the avatar.
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Kokonilly
in June 27th, 2009 @ 14:14
I know, it just looks appropriate for the post.
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Kokonilly
in June 27th, 2009 @ 12:50
Meanies.
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The Man For Aeiou
in June 27th, 2009 @ 14:08
I hate all fundamentalists… of both theism and atheism
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 14:14
It’s very difficult to find an atheistic fundamentalist. In fact, by definition it’s impossible. An atheist does not believe in God because he doesn’t see evidence for it. If evidence were to point to God’s existence, he would change his mind. A religious fundamentalist, however, will never change his mind no matter what the evidence says.
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gimanator
in June 27th, 2009 @ 14:24
Though it is possible for one to passionately seek out evidence against religion?
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 14:42
What do mean by “evidence against religion�
And how is passion the same as fundamentalism?
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gimanator
in June 27th, 2009 @ 14:55
By evidence against religion, I simply mean that I know people, not referring to you, who seek ways to prove that religion is bad. They will look for any fault, and then capitalize on it.
Secondly, I didn’t mean to suggest that passion is fundamentalism. I was just recognizing that atheists are in the middle due to lack of evidence. This person I know purposefully moves against religion with whatever he can find, though he calls himself an atheist.
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 16:24
The burden of proof is on the believer. Christians are atheists when it comes to Thor, Odin, Zeus, etc. We just take it one god further. The theist makes a claim about the universe, and the atheist, quoting Carl Sagan, will say that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidenceâ€. The theist, unable to supply such evidence, should abandon his claim. That he doesn’t is a testament to his irrationality.
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gimanator
in June 27th, 2009 @ 17:38
Not necessarily. The Atheist’s refusing to believe should not alter the Christian’s course. If the Christian is attempting to spread his word, which is completely based off of faith, and someone is not willing to give the faith necessary for what the Christian accepts as truth, then the Atheist is simply a horse led to water that did not drink. The Christian should leave him be, and not pester him if that is what the Atheist as chosen, in my opinion. The Christian believes still what he originally did.
Although, I just got into an argument about something I didn’t mean to. What I’m trying to point out is that no evidence does not mean that there is no God. It’s a possibility, not proven wrong by a lack of physical evidence, just not proven true, to the man who chooses not to believe.
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 17:52
No one chooses not to believe. We are all born atheists until someone indoctrinates us. People choose to believe, if anything, and therefore, the burden of proof is on them. If I were to choose to believe that I could ignore the laws of gravity, I would need to provide evidence for this belief, or people would (rightfully) meet my claims with derision. According to your logic, I don’t have to provide any evidence, and everyone else is simply choosing not to believe that I can disregard the laws of gravity. Can you not see that for me to continue believing this is completely irrational and absurd?
Oh sure, it’s a possibility. As possible as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Great Teapot in the sky. Popper’s principle of falsifiability states that for a hypothesis to be applicable in the real world, it needs to be falsifiable. I.e, you need to be able to disprove it, or it’s a logical fallacy and doesn’t count. Of course it’s possible, but if you look at it that way, EVERYTHING’s possible, and that’s not a rational or productive way to live life, is it? Rationalism and empiricism both show that belief in God is utterly inane. Yet you discard these methods (that you otherwise apply to every single aspect of your life) when it comes to matters that religion claims to be its own field of expertise.
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gimanator
in June 27th, 2009 @ 18:06
Quite honestly, I’m not trying to convince you. I’m not giving you evidence because if you don’t want to believe, you don’t have to. I don’t mind if you give me evidence to the contrary as long as it’s not “you don’t have evidence.†This is because religion is only based off of faith- whether or not you believe, not if you see something every day or not.
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Enceladus {Tithea} (20 wung points)
in June 27th, 2009 @ 15:16
But, that’s assuming that atheists are rational. If there was evidence found for god, then if an atheist kept not believing in god, then wouldn’t that be fundamentalist?
Also, “fundamentalist†is the belief that the main point of the religion should be interpreted literally. As science is usually the foundation of atheism, then a fundamentalist atheist would usually be someone who took scientific results literally.
39.3.1.2.1
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 16:26
Semantics. Define terms before arguing, absolutely.
The subject of irrational atheists is a touchy one. Some people consider themselves atheists because they’ve just never been indoctrinated, but act completely irrationally otherwise. The conscious rejection of theism, however, is 99% of the time rooted in rationale and a thought process modeled on the scientific method.
39.3.1.3
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The Man For Aeiou
in June 27th, 2009 @ 16:07
There are some Atheists (I don’t think your one of them) who say the following, basically:
“1. If the Bible is true it is the literal word of God.
2. The Bible has a creation story
3. evolution disproves creation
4. therefor there is no god since the bible is not all true, and it’s the word of god, if there was a god.
This is Fundamentalist since they believe the bible is the word of god, but there is no god since the bible is false in parts.
My “branch†of christianity basically says that the bible is a book that has basic morals in it, but under stands it was written 3000-1500 or so years ago ,depending on parts, and that the world has changed, and the bible was written with the 3000-1500 people in mind.
Religion thread, GAPAs?
39.3.1.3.1
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 16:29
That’s some real shoddy logic you got there. How does that make them “fundamentalist atheists� It’s a logical procession: IF the Bible claims to be true, and some parts are obviously not true, THEN the claim is incorrect.
As for a book of basic morals, wouldn’t you think a divine creator could have done a much better job in compiling them? Or, if you don’t believe it was written by an entity like the Christian God, why still consider an outdated, violent, obscene and incoherent book a valid source of morality?
And yes, by all means, a religion thread. Damn, not one day on MB and it’s already happening.
39.3.1.3.1.1
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gimanator
in June 27th, 2009 @ 17:25
Keep in mind that this was due to your quotes here.
39.3.1.3.1.1.1
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 17:36
Right, because people weren’t itching for an excuse to jump and argue their faith. I never said anything about religion, I only typed some quotes from various popes and televangelists. I’m sorry if they’re representative of the entirety of Christianity.
39.3.1.3.1.1.1.1
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gimanator
in June 27th, 2009 @ 17:47
Fighting words as always. I have to say it’s good to have you back for another argument.
Although, I have to agree with you. In my views, the quotes are not reflective of the religion. Many religious leaders took advantage of the faith they gained, and were pretty much jerks. That much is agreed.
39.3.1.3.1.1.1.1.1
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Elias Eiholzer-Silver
in June 27th, 2009 @ 17:55
I never said that either. In fact, many of those quotes highlight inherent fallacies within religious thought, like the mutual exclusiveness between faith and learning. Faith teaches us to accept what we don’t know and attribute everything to ad hoc explanations. That there were good and bad people involved with various religions is a statistical imperative. However, good people doing atrocious things is only possible through the medium of religion (and possibly patriotism).
Totally new to all these debates, but, referencing a far-past post, I would call myself a 2.5. Religion, as a whole, has never been huge in my life, my parents being lenient in that area. They have always wanted me to believe in God and have faith and the like, but have never forced it upon me. I am attracted to a more earth/natural out look….semi-transcendentalistic, one might say……
But then again, I find myself agreeing with Elias on the entire thread that was posted…
I dislike organized religion of all sorts.
I have come to that conclusion.
You have to follow your path, your truth.
And I HATE all forms of brain-washing..especially theological….the more you know, the stronger you are – knowledge is POWER!
One question:
Why does everything refer to God as a male?
I think that a higher being should be above that and, no offence to anyone but this IS the religion thread, I think it is slightly sexist.
And I would call myself a 2-ish – refering way back to those posts
Oh, and I find myself agreeing with Elias on much of the arguement that was re-posted here…..Elias – you are a convincing writer.
Oh. I double posted. Sorry, I thought that the last one got deleted somehow.
*simmers in embarasment*
Hooray!! A religion thread! What fun!
That was pointless. Fine: 2.5 kilos choklit.
286- You seem to follow the teachings of Laozi in the belief system or religion known as Daoism or Taoism, with perhaps some Buddhist influence as well. Transcendentalism is a literary and philosophical movement, not a religious one.
I’m very sorry. Just excited. (hands over chocolate).
289.1 – however I find myself agreeing with alot of things they say, and it influences my beliefs….The Oversoul and all that.
I don’t know….I think I could lean more towards Unitarianism…..Without the main christain base…..I supose that I am a hodge-podge of many religions
Is there a religion in which they believe all religions to have a truth to them? I think I may be that, whatever that is.
Hurrah, Elias is back!
I may have to become active on the thread again…I don’t want to miss out on the fun.
Sorry for the double post.
290 — The Bahá`i religion believes that all religions are helping on the path to universal peace, or something. I don’t remember/know the details, but I’m sure it would be easy to find with a quick Google search.
Yup, I just Googled it. Basically it says that all humanity is equal and that God sent messengers (including Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Zoroastar, Muhammad, Buddha, etc.) to make known His will. Their goals are universal peace and education and equality, to name a few. If you Google it, then it’s the first link.
Seeing the number of Douglas Adams fans here, I thought you might enjoy this impromptu speech he gave at Cambridge shortly before his death.
“Religion… has certain ideas at the heart of it which we call sacred or holy or whatever. What it means is, ‘Here is an idea or a notion that you’re not allowed to say anything about; you’re just not. Why not? – because you’re not!’ If somebody votes for a party that you don’t agree with, you’re free to argue about it as much as you like; everybody will have an argument but nobody feels aggrieved by it. If somebody thinks taxes should go up or down you are free to have an argument about it. But on the other hand if somebody says ‘I mustn’t move a light switch on Saturday’, you say, ‘I respect that’.
Why should it be that it’s perfectly legitimate to support the Labour party or the Conservative party, Republicans or Democrats, this model of economics versus that, Macintosh instead of Windows – but to have an opinion about how the Universe began, about who created the Universe… no, that’s holy?
… We are used to not challenging religious ideas but it’s very interesting how much of a furore Richard [Dawkins, Oxford biologist, author of The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker and The God Delusion] creates when he does it! Everybody gets absolutely frantic about it because you’re not allowed to say these things. Yet when you look at it rationally there is no reason why those ideas shouldn’t be as open to debate as any other, except that we have agreed somehow between us that they shouldn’t be.”
I want you to prove that you are not actually a butterfly dreaming you are a man. Just try. Or is the belief you are a human too ‘sacred’?
Easy, butterflies as we know them do not possess the cerebral ability to dream in such detail. How can I prove I’m not a brain in a vat on some alien planet? I can’t. But I never made that claim. I never claimed to have absolute knowledge about that. I will follow what the evidence suggests. And the evidence suggests that I am, in fact, a human. It’s not sure, but the doubt is unreasonable, as there’s nothing I can do about it, so I live according to the assumption that I am what I appear to be.
What evidence? You don’t ‘appear’ to be human at all! Give proof! I want absolute proof. In fact, you cannot give me any. And I think that no ideas are ‘sacred’ at all. Let them be debated! Survival of the fittest. Unfortunately for you, atheism would be the first to go. That is, if atheists don’t stick to their irrational beliefs.
I don’t need to give absolute proof that I’m a human because I don’t claim to have such proof. However, assuming that by “human” you mean Homo Sapiens, anthropomorphic entites, etc; then just by looking at myself I can recognize human characteristics, enough for me to safely make the assumption that I am human. Of course, if you managed to prove otherwise, then I would change my idea.
Quick aside: Atheism is steadily on the rise, thanks to less restraints on philosophical debate, etc. What do you consider “irrational beliefs” to be?
Disregarding evidence for God. And why should I believe your senses? You have no proof at all unless I make many assumptions!
Ok, then what is this evidence that we are disregarding?
As for the epistemological debate: I can’t prove that my senses are correct. You’re ignoring vast parts of my posts. I stated clearly that the reason I consider myself a human is based on assumptions. It is, however, illogical to seriously doubt this, because there is a line in epistemology between rational doubt and irrational doubt. Doubting that you are, in fact, a human would lead you nowhere, except to doubt everything else you see around you. Descartes answered this by assuming that the ability to think was proof of his existence. I’m not sure I agree, but the point is that regardless of Descartes’ proof it is unreasonable to doubt your own existence in such a context, and it is a fallacy to bring such a high level of doubt into a completely different type of debate.
You have some pretty high levels of doubt brought into this God debate. And you’re just ignoring my ‘Gap Theory’.
Doubt is necessary for learning and progress. It’s perfectly reasonable to doubt God. Not so much your very own existence, for reasons I’ve already explained.
You haven’t explained what your gap theory is! How can I refute it? As far as I know, the Gap theory is what creationists use to try to reinforce their theory. “Oh, there, there’s a small missing link in Darwin’s theory, you see, that’s where God is!” This is, of course, utter bollocks. Instead of leaping to ad hoc conclusions, we should be systematically working on finding the real missing links. It’s an incredibly interesting field of biology.
There are no gaps like that in evolution, though. But theists put forth the most plausible explanation for such things as consciousness and differing physics for different scales.
Oh and by the way, great job on completely missing Adams’ point.
Why are certain things holy? Because they have to do with a being that is higher than us. Computers are below us, because we made them, so therefore they are not holy.
SFDP
Snap! I meant to reply to comment #293! I don’t know how that happened.
That depends on the semantics of “holy”. Douglas is pointing out the absurdity of not being allowed challenging these beliefs because they are considered “holy”.
Holy: belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power, sacred. (American Heritage Dictionary) For example, I believe that the Eucharist is holy because it is the Body of Christ. Why did I capitalize? To show respect, because they’re holy!
I would also define holy as something that is respected and must not be defiled. For example, someone could believe that their Louis Vuitton bag is holy by that definition, although it has nothing to do with God.
Holy doesn’t mean unquestionable. One CAN debate. One CAN ask questions. We’re doing it right now. It’s good for the faith, to wonder why you are believing something that seems impossible. The believer and the non-believer are perfectly at rights to question. God gave us minds, why shouldn’t we use them?
So why did you respond? Did you understand Adams’ speech?
There is also the subject of courtesy. If someone believes that something is holy, but I don’t, then I probably won’t argue with them about it because I respect that that belief is important to them. There is a time and place for debating. That doesn’t mean that one can’t ever argue.
Some beliefs, however, need to be questioned relentlessly. When beliefs inspire things like teaching creationism in school, people of differing opinions MUST, out of an obligation to education and humanity, attack these beliefs, and courtesy be damned.
Cromwell (293.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1): Give me a concrete example.
I’d like to share this video with you all. It’s an animation about religious diversity, tolerance, growing up and learning to trust yourself. There’s no profanity, no adult themes, and is wonderfully humanitarian. IMO it should be required viewing for all schools.
www . youtube . com/watch?v=kAIpRRZvnJg
Yes, I saw this one a few weeks ago. It gets better as it goes, too.
You weren’t browsing the atheistbus website, were you? That’s where I saw it.
Actually, a friend sent me the link.
Oh. Shame
Downloaded for iPod.
That is a good video. O.O
That was a very good video. I recommend people to watch it–maybe it’ll make you think.
Fear is too strong a motivator for so many…
With all the recent “drama” going on in the Atheists thread, I would like to make a few statements about my beliefs here instead. Before I do, however, I would like to make one thing clear: I’m NOT looking for a fight to happen, nor do I want to find myself in the middle of one. So please just comment on this if you wish in a respectful way only. I understand that everyone has different beliefs (or lack of one) so I know this will be controversial to everybody. But if we’re going to fight, let’s make it a civilized one in the very least.
I’m a Catholic, and I believe in God because I do. End of story. Unlike some other people, I don’t need any “real” or “scientific” proof to believe in Him or Heaven. In fact, I don’t even need the Bible or rosary or pretty much anything to believe in Him. In my opinion, we believe in something because it’s in our heart, and not because a book or rosary is set in front of us. Although those things do make the religion more realistic and more able to understand, they’re only guides, or pieces set on the side. Many Catholics, (and people in every other religion) believe in something (or don’t believe in something) because they feel like they need a certain amount of “real” proof to believe in it. So when I tell people that I believe in God, often they ask me why. But there is NO why for me.
For example, say you were in the middle of a desert or in some other extreme situation where you’re cut off from the “real” world. If you were in this case, would you believe in a more powerful being called God? For most people, the answer is probably no. They’d need something, like in the very least, a chapel or church, to believe in it. They’d need a real place to worship God or whatever they believe in. But for me, I don’t need those things. I just need to be able to have someone to look for in tough times-someone I can always rely on and trust no matter where I am.
I’m not sure if anyone else will be able to understand this, but I thought I’d share some of my feelings and see.
First of all, it’s not drama, it’s arguing. And it’s (almost) completely civilized.
Anyway, how can you be Catholic if you don’t accept that the Church is the only way to reach god? Chapels and churches are just buildings.
Quick question (sorry, I’m a skeptic, it’s what we do): You say that you can always rely on god and trust him no matter what. Has he ever come through for you in a tangible way (i.e. that was demonstrably not just a placebo effect)?
First of all, I meant drama as in arguing and action so I’m sorry if that word choice wasn’t clear. And it didn’t look entirely civilized to me, but oh well.
About the Church comment-I do believe that through the Church, I can reach God. But when I say “through the Church,” I’m talking about a spiritual thing, not a physical thing. My point was that I don’t feel like I need physical material objects to worship God and what He does-I can worship him wherever, whenever, just by talking to him. (Or praying.)
I’m sorry, but I’m not really sure if I completely understand your quick question. Do you just mean, has God come through to me in a non-spiritual, physical way? If that’s what you meant, the answer is no. Although I do have some physical “proof” to back up my religion, I don’t rely on it for my beliefs. Apologize if that doesn’t answer your question completely…
But Catholic doctrine says that only through certain mediums (Bibles, chapels, churches, rosaries etc) can you reach god. Doesn’t your interpretation go against Catholicism?
Yes, I meant have you experienced something that couldn’t have come from anywhere other than god.
Out of curiosity (and that damned skepticism again), what physical proof are you talking about?
That may be the “official” rule, but it’s not what the Father at my church recently said in his Homily. Perhaps he has been mistaken or something like that, but recently he told us that every Catholic worships God differently. He even used the example of rosaries: Some people say the rosary everyday, some people don’t. But our basic beliefs in one God, who sent his only son, Jesus, to Earth, for example, are the same. It’s the core principles that matter the most, not the way you connect with them.
I don’t think that my interpretation goes DIRECTLY against Catholicism. Maybe it’s not exactly the way that the doctrine says, but that’s the way I see it. I should have said this earlier, but my beliefs are pretty much three quarters Catholic, and one quarter my “own thing.”
Physical proof: There have been discoveries of the cloth that Jesus’ face was wiped with, for one. There are others, but I have to go now so it’ll have to be cut short…
The Catholics are pretty strict about their doctrine, usually. The Vatican would certainly object to someone claiming Catholicism and connection with god without the appropriate Catholic medium.
RE proof: Jesus’ cloth? You do know that there’s even a historical trend that doubts that Jesus actually existed? I’m not going to synthesize it here, but here’s the wikipedia page: en . wikipedia . org/wiki/Jesus_myth
I’m inclined to share this viewpoint. No good evidence, and too many similarities with pre-Christian mythologies.
And there have been letters between Roman officials that have mentioned Jesus.
None before the early 2nd century, as far as I know — and those talk about Christians, not about Jesus himself. But I think most historians agree that Jesus existed, even if nobody wrote about him during his lifetime.
Precisely. But like I said before, I don’t need any proof to believe that He existed.
You require a certain amount of proof for any other belief you act upon during the course of your life. Anything anyone tells you needs some sort of evidence before you accept it. Why should something like beliefs about the creation of the universe and the meaning of life, none of which are inconsequential, not be subject to the same rules?
I’m not trying to proselytize, I’m just being my skeptical self. Asking questions helps you realize truths. If you’re ever in the mood for some doubting exercises, I recommend Sam Harris’ Letter to a Christian Nation. It’s short, concise, and to the point, not to mention easy to read. Harris has a degree in philosophy and knows how to get right to the point without wasting time in rhetoric. If you want something a little more colourful and engaging (not to mention amusing), I recommend either Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion or Christopher Hitchens’ God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything. Be warned, however, Hitchens is a noted polemicist and enjoys provoking in addition to arguing.
Do you have any idea how many so-called prophets sprang up in the Middle East during that time period? Literally a dime a dozen.
Anyway, there might be slight circumstantial evidence towards Jesus’ existence, but really nothing that would stand up in any serious sort of tribunal or severe scrutiny. I’m convinced that the mainstream acceptance of Jesus’ existence stems from a simple fear of questioning mainstream religious belief.
Yes, Jesus’s name in Hebrew is actually Joshua (or Yehoshua), which is a very common name. We really don’t have much evidence for Jesus. However, for Mohammed we have plenty, I believe.
I don’t know about “plenty”, but certainly more than for Jesus. He was illiterate and married girls as young as 12 (and not necessarily one after the other). However, Mohammed never claimed divinity.
Edit to the above post:
Instead of “slight circumstantial evidence towards Jesus’ existence”, “slight circumstantial evidence towards the existence of a man named Jesus (of which there could have been hundreds)”
I notice that the comment numbers are missing from posts 297 and onward. Is there a reason?
Zinc) Pennism- I play around 3 instruments and am a good writer, but I can’t draw a potato worth a potato. What would this mean? (BTW, I taught my computer that Pennism is a word.)
Those numberless comments “fell off the end” of a series of nested comments on June 9 and plummeted to the bottom of the thread, where they’ve been sitting like lumps ever since. It’s a quirk of our threading/nesting and numbering plug-ins, which get confused whenever they mistakenly allow Administrators to exceed the specified limit for nesting “depth.”
Aha! A Religions thread! They still exist! Le gasp!
So! I am hoping at least one person can help me out with this without any personal attacks or flames ensuing. You see, a goodly number of people with whom I am acquainted have expressed the following sentiment:
“I wish I were religious, but I just can’t bring myself to believe in something” or “I wish I could bring myself to be religious, but I’m just…not.”
Frankly, I am having a difficult time grokking (oh my! Firefox’s spellchecker didn’t underline that in a red squiggly!) this statement. And my friends/acquaintances have never provided a sufficient explanation. They repeat themselves at best. So, if anyone feels this way, or can shed any light on the matter, I would be forever grateful and bestow tonnes of internets choklit upon you.
They miss the comfort and false sense of purpose that a religion can give. Their inability to believe speaks to their inherent rationality. They would be better off reading Nietzsche and learning how to find value and purpose in nothing more than their existence and life. Becoming the Superman is a much more fulfilling goal than finding ways to bow to imaginary friends.
Strange…my comment appears far above comments made over a month ago…what’s going on? o.O
See the post right above yours, no. 297.1
Don’t let these threads die! I’ll end up forgetting to check up on MB!
I just did the Belief-O-Matic quiz modeling the Jedi way, and the results were:
1. Hinduism (100%)
2. Liberal Quakers (98%)
3. Neo-Pagan (97%)
4. Unitarian Universalism (96%)
5. Sikhism (88%)
6. Taoism (84%)
7. Mahayana Buddhism (81%)
8. Secular Humanism (81%)
9. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (80%)
10. Theravada Buddhism (78%)
Hm, interesting…
1. Secular Humanism (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (90%)
3. Nontheist (84%)
4. Theravada Buddhism (68%)
5. Liberal Quakers (66%)
6. Neo-Pagan (56%)
7. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (51%)
8. Taoism (41%)
9. New Age (37%)
10. Reform Judaism (36%)
11. Orthodox Quaker (24%)
12. Sikhism (24%)
13. Mahayana Buddhism (23%)
14. Scientology (23%)
15. New Thought (21%)
16. Baha’i Faith (18%)
17. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (18%)
18. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (15%)
19. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (13%)
20. Seventh Day Adventist (12%)
21. Eastern Orthodox (9%)
22. Islam (9%)
23. Jainism (9%)
24. Orthodox Judaism (9%)
25. Roman Catholic (9%)
26. Hinduism (6%)
27. Jehovah’s Witness (0%)
Which is bull, as nontheists don’t have “beliefs” as such and cannot be categorized.
I’m surprised that no one has brought this up before, seeing as this is a religious thread. How do you explain all the miracles that have happened (and miracles do happen still). Please, someone explain all the healings and protection from angels that have been written about in books and made into documentaries. I would like someone to explain all the crutches and wheelchairs left at places like At. Anne de Beaupres, at Lourdes, Guadalupe, Fatima, and. I would also like someone to explain why the tilma of Juan Diego still exists, even though it should have rotted years ago and was almost blown up and almost was destroyed other times. Lastly, I’d like someone to explain why, when I saw a traveling copy of Our Lady of Guadalupe, everyone could smell roses, even though there were none and I had bad allergies. I’m interested in hearing your theories.
Placebos can be very effective, as can self-delusion. In addition, people lie. Don’t you think that if prayer and miracles actually worked it would have been a major breakthrough in medicine and treated as such? These things don’t happen. Ockham’s Razor.
What if something like penicillin was the answer to people’s prayers? And I’m not lying.
Drats! (SFTDP) I posted the same argument, but with an additional question, on the Atheism thread.
That’s just an ad hoc exception. Penicillin was not created because someone prayed for it. What about all the people who died BEFORE penicillin was invented? Go read up on what Spinoza says about miracles.
Occam’s*
You can’t dismiss people as crazy because they saw a ‘miracle’, FS. Not all religious people are delusional. For real. Please try to see the other person’s point of view sometimes… Open-mindedness is a good thing. It’s not stupid or weak, it’s admirable.
I’m sure miracles happen, though I’ve never seen one, but they are not explainable by science – we know too little about the universe. However, they are (probably) not due to God.
But we can’t prove all this. We can’t conclusively prove the existence of God. And that’s why I chose to be an atheist – I can’t believe in something without proof.
Just because a person suffers one delusion doesn’t make them entirely crazy, it happens all the time. As for open-mindedness, true, it is good, but within certain limits. Being “open” to dogmas and baseless assumptions is not “open-minded”, it’s being irrational. Furthermore, I refer you to Terry Pratchett:
“The problem with having an open mind is that people will keep coming along and try to put things into it.”
What we know as “miracles” are entirely explainable by science, just not at this point in time.
I took the belief o matic quiz again, and here’s what I have.
1. Secular Humanism (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (93%)
3. Nontheist (82%)
4. Liberal Quakers (67%)
5. Theravada Buddhism (61%)
6. Neo-Pagan (53%)
7. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (52%)
8. Taoism (38%)
9. New Age (36%)
10. Reform Judaism (34%)
11. Scientology (26%)
12. New Thought (24%)
13. Orthodox Quaker (20%)
14. Sikhism (20%)
15. Mahayana Buddhism (19%)
16. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (17%)
17. Baha’i Faith (13%)
18. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (13%)
19. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (8%)
20. Seventh Day Adventist (6%)
21. Eastern Orthodox (4%)
22. Islam (4%)
23. Jainism (4%)
24. Orthodox Judaism (4%)
25. Roman Catholic (4%)
26. Hinduism (0%)
27. Jehovah’s Witness (0%)
Last time’s (September 08):
1. Secular Humanism (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (92%)
3. Nontheist (76%)
4. Liberal Quakers (72%)
5. Theravada Buddhism (66%)
6. Neo-Pagan (61%)
7. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (60%)
8. Taoism (54%)
9. Reform Judaism (46%)
10. New Age (43%)
11. Sikhism (38%)
12. Scientology (32%)
13. Bahá’à Faith (31%)
14. Orthodox Quaker (31%)
15. Mahayana Buddhism (30%)
16. New Thought (28%)
17. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (24%)
18. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (24%)
19. Jainism (20%)
20. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (18%)
21. Seventh Day Adventist (17%)
22. Hinduism (14%)
23. Eastern Orthodox (13%)
24. Islam (13%)
25. Orthodox Judaism (13%)
26. Roman Catholic (13%)
27. Jehovah’s Witness (0%)
So, comparing them in columns on Word, I am less religious now. Huh.
Here’s my results from the Belief-O-Matic; pretty accurate, too.
1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (96%)
3. Liberal Quakers (92%)
4. Neo-Pagan (88%)
5. Orthodox Quaker (86%)
6. Hinduism (72%)
7. Mahayana Buddhism (70%)
8. New Age (68%)
9. Eastern Orthodox (67%)
10. Roman Catholic (67%)
11. Seventh Day Adventist (66%)
12. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (65%)
13. Reform Judaism (64%)
14. Theravada Buddhism (63%)
15. Secular Humanism (60%)
16. Sikhism (59%)
17. Jainism (53%)
18. Baha’i Faith (49%)
19. Orthodox Judaism (48%)
20. Taoism (47%)
21. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (44%)
22. New Thought (41%)
23. Scientology (40%)
24. Jehovah’s Witness (34%)
25. Nontheist (34%)
26. Islam (32%)
27. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (31%)
This is just a question for Cromwell or other MBers who are Jewish. Do you still remember who belongs to which of the Twelve Tribes? And if so, if someone converts to Judaism, then would they be welcomed into a Tribe or would something else happen?
Never, EVER, go into a Scientology Church unless you know exactly what questions to ask and are prepared to ignore their manipulations.
Woah. Why is THAT post not on the very bottom? Strange stuff.
Anyway, I think you’re being too mean to people and generalizing based on religion. Not every religious person is out to get you, you know.
It was a technical glitch that we decided to leave as it was. But it’s time for a new thread, anyway.